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Kessel has been a consistent 30+ goal scorer for the past 4 straight seasons came off a career high last season and will only get better as he enters his prime and could really excel if he played with better linemates and not to forget is 6 years younger than Gaborik.
My opinion is based on watching these guys night after night year after year. I was looking for a third party opinion to make the case. Dan Girardi is a first pairing RHD. If you think that is untrue then you need to watch more Ranger hockey instead what you call hockey up there in Montreal.
Defense by committee? Girardi plays 24 minutes a night against everone's best players and the Rangers are one of the best defensive teams in the league (yes I know, they have Hank) if not the best. He has flourished with Staal and now McD. He's a dynamite player deserving of the recognition he received this year by being in the all-star game and being 6th in Norris voting. To think anything else at this point in his career is just bias.
btw, I've had season tickets for 19 years. I watch plenty of hockey. What about you?
Girardi is a first pairing dman on a bad team please. He's an awesome Dman, i'd love him on my team, really, and I think every one should. I value him like I value Gorges, I think they are pretty comparable (Sure Girardi has the Upper-hand.) and they are complementary pieces, just like Plekanec is a complementary piece, just like Callahan is.. Elite complementary pieces.
I don't think you could be super dominant basing your defense around a player like Girardi.
Norris nominee should be players you can build around in a defense. Thus he didnt deserve it. Same with Mcd. Like I already said trophy voting means nothing. Andrei Markov finished 6th in his best season... just to tell.
It's not a knock on Girardi BTW. Just trying to extinguish the homer-fire here.
And I've been in hockey since i'm 12, made my education around that, made my life around that. I've never bought season ticket's, student budget never permitted it. But I have a TV and a computer that is good enough for that.
I'll bump this when Gardiner is a better d-man than McDonagh. Also, its laughable thinking McDonaugh will win a Norris. There are so many d-man better than him.
and there aren't many better than jake ****ing gardiner?
Last edited by New York RKY: 09-05-2012 at 07:04 AM.
Mcdonagh couldn't stop him from scoring 19 points, did he?
So unimpressive.
So you're saying those 19 points were scored in only 6 games against the Rangers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro
I watched every Flyers/Rangers games this season (6), and quite a few regular season games that were nationally televised/NHL network (10+).
Then include the playoff games, which were almost always on (especially the Atlantic teams) in my apartment (15 out of 20).
That's around 30 Rangers games that I saw this year (including playoffs). In those games, McDonagh scored probably around 11 points (3 pts in 6 Flyers games, 4 points total in the playoffs, and 4 points in the other random regular season games that I caught). That's pro-rated to about 30 points over 82 games (which is about what his season ending total was).
I just don't see this elite offensive upside. Sorry.
And I watched all 102 Rangers games this season. Live or on DVR without interruption. I've seen Ryan McDonagh at his best and worst. You don't see "elite offensive upside" however, I see offensive smarts that most defenders at that age don't have and the skating ability that only 2 other defensemen in this league (Doughty, Karlsson) have. To have little to no PP time and still score 30 points is quite an impressive feat, a feat that has apparently gone overlooked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulemon
Yes he is. For **** sakes just watch the two damn players play. I have seen Karlsson and Gardiner play more than you I guarantee it. All bias aside Gardiner is the better all around skater.
And once again, Suter and Weber are the exception. Not the rule.
Gardner is a good skater, not on the level of Karlsson. Gardner in a straight line might be faster than Karlsson, but Karlsson laterally is arguably the best skater in the league. McDonagh and Doughty are right there with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlaverty06
And the reputation rangers fans have is terribly overvaluing players. Marc staal for example is nothing more than a solid number 3 D
Only a Devils fan could say something so foolish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead
I'm a Rangers fan and I'd take Streit over Staal easily tbh.
Absolutely not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin
His hockey sense or IQ or whatever you want to call it has never been questioned. It was his decision making of when he could do certain things at a higher level; the adjustment to a different style of play, that many youth experience. That has greatly improved, and is no longer a weakness.
Get up to date, get it right, or don't say anything.
Hockey sense has ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING to do with being able to perform things at a higher level.
He might not be as dazzling as a Karlsson or a Letang in terms of skill but anyone who can skate like McDonagh will put up 30-40 points a year without blinking just based on his ability to jump in and still get back.
I've never seen a Rangers defenseman catch people from behind the way this guy does. It will allow him to take risks other D-men can't as he matures and develops a more confident offensive game....which he will. Lest we forget 2012-13 will be his 23 year old season.
I really like the guy, but this to me seems to be quite a stretch in terms of consistent production from season to season.
Also, keep in mind that Scott Stevens scored 908 points in his career.
I think you're looking at another Willie Mitchell or Robyn Regehr or Chris Phillips.
Yeah I'm aware of that. Stevens didn't really score in the 90s though. He was able to score during the 80s when goalies were civs and had to change up his game.
I don't think those three are the best comparables because while he may be up to par defensively, I think we will be superior offensively due to his mobility.
His ES strength points show that. I honestly believe that if he got 2 mins pp time this year, he'd be close to 40.
I agree to a certain extent. I don't want Gardiner at the expense of McDonagh, but McDonagh at this point is miles ahead in his development. Its certainly possible for him to catch up, but I don't think its 'probable'. There is no point of trading a #1 dman who eats up nearly thirty minutes a game, with a nearly flawless defensive game and a developing offensive game for a player who is average defensively, and above average offensively, while having strong offensive potential.
That being said, I'd consider Gardiner+ for MDZ. Why? Handedness. We could use a mobile RHD. MDZ is further ahead in development than Gardiner, but it is much more probably for him to catch MDZ than McDonagh. Ie: 40-50 point offensive dman, who is solid in his own zone. Toronto would still need to add for Gardiner just because you're paying a premium for a player who is 'already there' offensivly.
So yeah, I'd be willing to do something like:
MDZ, Michael Sauer for Carl Gunnarsson & Jake Gardiner.
That being said, while value is close here. I expect both sides to be hesitant to pull the trigger on this. Both players were untouchable in the Nash deal, and Burke is obviously very high on Gardiner. I must also clarify, I would not do this deal if it wasn't for MDZ's handedness.
I think a dpairing of:
McD-Girardi
Staal-Gardiner
Gunnarsson-Stralman
McD-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
MDZ-Sauer
MDZ and Staal same hand is slighly undesirable and given NY's system, Gardiner's agility would likely complement Staal nicely.
Last edited by NYRfan68: 09-05-2012 at 01:16 PM.
Reason: Gardiner not MDZ
He wasn't 6th in voting. He was 11 or 12th. Besides, half the rangers D core was top 12-13 in Norris voting. Del Zotto who isn't THAT good was one or two places lower than McDonagh in Norris votes. I don't know what's going on there but that's what it is.
Gardiner had around 24 ES points I believe with 6 on the powerplay. Gardiner didn't even get a ton of PP time either. He might have had more PK time.
Also why would you pair a 20 year old rookie puck moving defenseman against the top players in the league? That's just plain stupid and he didnt play the shutdown role. That was Dion's and Gunnar's job. Also, Gardiner is already and will be much better offensively. You're a true homer if you don't agree. If McDonagh was good enough offensively he would have seen more powerplay time. You don't have to knock on Jake because he is talented at that end. Lastly, yeah, it's obvious McDonagh is a lot better defensively right now. No one is denying it.
It's just stupid how Rangers fans are either saying Gardiner is not proven or that he essentially can't improve. That was his rookie season. He did very well at both ends. He should hopefully continue to improve on both ends. I think McDonagh will always be the better player defensively but I think Gardiner will always be better offensively. The real question is which gap will be bigger in the end. Offense or defense?
The Rangers did it with a 21 year old McDonagh. You do it because he displays the skills to do it. McDonagh did, Gardiner didn't.
__________________
I feel like this is such an appropriate quote for these boards...
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience"-Mark Twain
To those who say the Rangers defense is over rated, please find me an example of 2 teams that have a better top 4 than the NYR? You can say alot of things on the Rangers are over rated with some merit: Kreider, Nash, Callahan, etc. The Rangers defense and goaltending both are no where close to being over rated.
Mcdonagh is an integral part of that. During the playoffs you had Pierre, Milbury, JR all saying that McDonagh was already a top 15 defenseman in the league IN HIS SECOND YEAR.
You think he is over rated, then fine we are happy to keep him and watch him shut down your top offensive players with ease. With all due respect either "pay up or shut up", its that simple.
I really like the guy, but this to me seems to be quite a stretch in terms of consistent production from season to season.
Also, keep in mind that Scott Stevens scored 908 points in his career.
I think you're looking at another Willie Mitchell or Robyn Regehr or Chris Phillips.
Those guys are good comparisons in terms of style and reliability. However, McD is a far superior skater to all those guys and therefore can do more offensively and can certainly take more chances up ice. He isn't nearly as mean as Scott Stevens but he makes far less mistakes on the ice. He's only played 120 regular season games. How he develops is yet to be determined but the skill set is elite.
It might just be my definition of Franchise, because I see players like Karlsson, Chara, Weber, and maybe Suter/Pietrangelo as franchise defensemen. I wouldn't call McDonagh a franchise defenseman any more than I would Hamhuis.
Was Chara a franchise D-man when the Isles traded him? Was Weber when he barely scored in juniors? Karlsson had one great offensive year. His defensive abilities are still questionable. Yet you anoint him already? McD at this point in his career is light years ahead of where Hamhuis was at the same point and he is a very good player. We expect him to be better than that.
there isnt much difference between Kessel and Gaborik ?
Try 6 years, contract, and injury history ...
not to mention compare their linemates ...
Kessel has MUCHHH more trade value than Gaborik
the difference between Kessel and Gaborik is larger than the difference between McDonagh and Gardiner
Gaborik has scored 40 goals two of the last three years. He's pretty damn good. Kessel, although talented is considered a losing player. the age and contract issues favor Kessel but let's not pretend on the ice that Kessel is the better player; he's not.
The way Ranger fans are talking about McDonagh.. this would be a fair trade :
To NYR:
Kessel
JVR
Gardiner
1st
To Toronto:
McDonagh
You can't help but be a baby. ok. You know Gardiner and Kadri could be an underpayment and at the same time your ridiculous trade could be overpayment. You understand there is a middle ground right?
Girardi is a first pairing dman on a bad team please. He's an awesome Dman, i'd love him on my team, really, and I think every one should. I value him like I value Gorges, I think they are pretty comparable (Sure Girardi has the Upper-hand.) and they are complementary pieces, just like Plekanec is a complementary piece, just like Callahan is.. Elite complementary pieces.
I don't think you could be super dominant basing your defense around a player like Girardi.
Norris nominee should be players you can build around in a defense. Thus he didnt deserve it. Same with Mcd. Like I already said trophy voting means nothing. Andrei Markov finished 6th in his best season... just to tell.
It's not a knock on Girardi BTW. Just trying to extinguish the homer-fire here.
And I've been in hockey since i'm 12, made my education around that, made my life around that. I've never bought season ticket's, student budget never permitted it. But I have a TV and a computer that is good enough for that.
I wouldn't phrase it that way, given where the Rangers finished with Girardi on their 1st pairing. Rather, "1st pairing dman" doesn't mean as much as you'd think when that list must include players like Seidenberg and Scuderi - good players who've found chemistry with #1D's, but honestly what would you give up to get one of those guys?
1st pairing dman does not necessarily mean 2nd best defenseman on a team; in fact, it usually doesn't, given how coaches like to balance their pairings. But I've seen that term used both ways - in the colloquial, more common sense of 1st or 2nd best defenseman on a team, and in the sense of playing on the literal 1st pairing on a roster chart - whichever definition works better for the player they're trying to pump up.
Girardi is a first pairing dman on a bad team please. He's an awesome Dman, i'd love him on my team, really, and I think every one should. I value him like I value Gorges, I think they are pretty comparable (Sure Girardi has the Upper-hand.) and they are complementary pieces, just like Plekanec is a complementary piece, just like Callahan is.. Elite complementary pieces.
I don't think you could be super dominant basing your defense around a player like Girardi.
Norris nominee should be players you can build around in a defense. Thus he didnt deserve it. Same with Mcd. Like I already said trophy voting means nothing. Andrei Markov finished 6th in his best season... just to tell.
It's not a knock on Girardi BTW. Just trying to extinguish the homer-fire here.
And I've been in hockey since i'm 12, made my education around that, made my life around that. I've never bought season ticket's, student budget never permitted it. But I have a TV and a computer that is good enough for that.
I think this is my first proposal thread... Could be my second. This is a trade that would never happen, it's a pretty lateral move, but it's just to see if the value is there.
To Toronto:
Ryan McDonagh
To New York:
Jake Gardiner
Nazem Kadri
Reason... I like McDonagh a lot
Why are some Leaf fans quick to get rid of Gardiner in a trade. This kid has the makings to be a very good defenseman if the Leaf fans and management are patience with him. Yet some Leaf fans want to trade him away. As for Kadri, I can see him part of a trade with other player. McDonagh is good but with a little patience from Leaf fans Gardiner will be right there. That's one trade that Burke has made that has worked out for the Leafs.
Why are some Leaf fans quick to get rid of Gardiner in a trade. This kid has the makings to be a very good defenseman if the Leaf fans and management are patience with him. Yet some Leaf fans want to trade him away. As for Kadri, I can see him part of a trade with other player. McDonagh is good but with a little patience from Leaf fans Gardiner will be right there. That's one trade that Burke has made that has worked out for the Leafs.
We are DEFINITELY not eager to trade him away. As for Kadri, we are not going to trade him when his value is at its lowest unless its for a big #1 centre. Kadri has the skill and drive to be a top 6 forward and he has put on some lbs while training with Gary Roberts this offseason. Carlyle also showed he has faith in Kadri, so I think he'll actually give him a good stretch to see if he works out unlike Wilson
I wouldn't phrase it that way, given where the Rangers finished with Girardi on their 1st pairing. Rather, "1st pairing dman" doesn't mean as much as you'd think when that list must include players like Seidenberg and Scuderi - good players who've found chemistry with #1D's, but honestly what would you give up to get one of those guys?
1st pairing dman does not necessarily mean 2nd best defenseman on a team; in fact, it usually doesn't, given how coaches like to balance their pairings. But I've seen that term used both ways - in the colloquial, more common sense of 1st or 2nd best defenseman on a team, and in the sense of playing on the literal 1st pairing on a roster chart - whichever definition works better for the player they're trying to pump up.
That's not the definition of a first pairing dman. Komisarek was once playing with Markov on the first pairing, was he a first-pairing dman ? Good god no.
