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Old
09-05-2012, 10:20 AM
  #76
RazielMoshman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler2829 View Post
I would bet my life this never ever happens.
How often has a guy who owns most of a teams offensive records not had his jersey retired. Point is moot though as this is a bogus a statement as any 'on pace' statistic, I'll be the first to admit that.

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09-05-2012, 10:27 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
How often has a guy who owns most of a teams offensive records not had his jersey retired. Point is moot though as this is a bogus a statement as any 'on pace' statistic, I'll be the first to admit that.
Make the Team HOF? Perhaps. Have his jersey retired? I highly doubt that. I'd say the only current Sabre with an opportunity to have his jersey retired--taking into account what they've accomplished to date--is Miller, and I still wouldn't lay even odds on that one.

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09-05-2012, 10:37 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Semin has a very high talent level. Elite scorers do tend to disappear and normally aren't relied on for most things other than scoring.
I dont think you can win that way anymore... I think the real "elite" forwards, play the game both ways. Parise, Crosby, Giroux... these guys aren't one dimensional scorers... they are complete players.

1 dimensional scorers don't fit in with the style of play necessary to win a championship.

You see any 1 dimensional, soft scorers eating up huge cap numbers in LA, Boston, Detroit, Pittsburgh?

Quote:
Look at the centres Vanek has had to work with. Roy, Hecht, Adam? Not exactly top line material. Hell Roy's the best we had and he tends to be selfish and has an attitude that stinks.
yup... that sucks for Vanek... however, it doesn't change the fact that he's a mercurial softie who doesn't have anywhere close to a complete/well rounded game.

Quote:
I can completely understand your opinion but it is worth mentioning that Vanek will, most likely, be one of the Sabres top scorers of all time at the end of his career and will, at current rate, have his jersey retired. Guy deserves a little credit.
jersey retired? i doubt it.
leading scorer... yea, in an era of complete failure. What will you think of his legacy if over the course of his 7 year contract the Sabres won Zero playoff series?

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09-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
jersey retired? i doubt it.
leading scorer... yea, in an era of complete failure. What will you think of his legacy if over the course of his 7 year contract the Sabres won Zero playoff series?
By that logic, there should never be any numbers in the rafters for this franchise, since they've never really won anything.

I'm not advocating for Vanek's number to be retired, but come on man.

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09-05-2012, 11:29 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
By that logic, there should never be any numbers in the rafters for this franchise, since they've never really won anything.

I'm not advocating for Vanek's number to be retired, but come on man.
Winning isn't the only thing that matters in this regard... but to get your jersey retired, there should be something other then individual statistics. Leadership, Championships, Community... something. I don't see any way Vanek gets in the rafters barring scoring the GW Cup Goal or something

French Connection - Launched the Franchise
Tim Horton - Died
Pat Lafontaine - Children

Hasek should be in the rafters...
I guess if Gare got his retired, Vanek has a shot

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09-05-2012, 12:11 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
And when you say "all the hate around here", you really mean like two or three posters ....

Others are "meh, take him or leave him"

And the majority are "very valuable asset, would only trade for a very valuable asset in return"

I think this became a rather prophetic early statement for this thread.

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09-05-2012, 12:18 PM
  #82
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And I feel that way about Tim Horton's jersey being retired.

Scenerio ....... Robyn Regehr, Ville Leino, or Christian Ehrhoff get in an accident Next summer and die. Do their jerseys get retired? Why? ... Why not?

Does it have anything to do with Horton playing for Toronto and Buffalo being so close? Out of all the retired jersey's in the rafters, I think Horton's is the weakest. I still like the fact that it is retired btw.

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Old
09-05-2012, 02:15 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
And I feel that way about Tim Horton's jersey being retired.

Scenerio ....... Robyn Regehr, Ville Leino, or Christian Ehrhoff get in an accident Next summer and die. Do their jerseys get retired? Why? ... Why not?

Does it have anything to do with Horton playing for Toronto and Buffalo being so close? Out of all the retired jersey's in the rafters, I think Horton's is the weakest. I still like the fact that it is retired btw.
Tim Horton:
  • 20 year NHL career / 1300 games before joining Buffalo
  • 6 times either a 1st or 2nd team all-star, including 3 consecutive years in the post-expansion era. (Hasek ties, though all as 1st-team)
  • 4 Stanley Cups (with Toronto)
  • generally acknowledged as the toughest, strongest d-man to play in his era.
Never mind the donuts. He was a first-ballot HHOF before he joined Buffalo.

And, most practically, once he was killed, no Sabre wore his number. Retiring it was not simply deserved recognition, it wasn't going to be worn by anyone else anyway. Could you have seen a former Sabre asking Frank Christie or Rip Simonik to issue him a #2 sweater? Wouldn't have happened even if a player had asked.

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09-05-2012, 02:33 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian_griffin View Post
Tim Horton:
  • 20 year NHL career / 1300 games before joining Buffalo
  • 6 times either a 1st or 2nd team all-star, including 3 consecutive years in the post-expansion era. (Hasek ties, though all as 1st-team)
  • 4 Stanley Cups (with Toronto)
  • generally acknowledged as the toughest, strongest d-man to play in his era.
Never mind the donuts. He was a first-ballot HHOF before he joined Buffalo.

And, most practically, once he was killed, no Sabre wore his number. Retiring it was not simply deserved recognition, it wasn't going to be worn by anyone else anyway. Could you have seen a former Sabre asking Frank Christie or Rip Simonik to issue him a #2 sweater? Wouldn't have happened even if a player had asked.
Hey, again, not against it. Just asking questions here.

So it would be safe to assume, if we acquired Jagr or Pronger and he played for 2 years for the Sabres before dying in an accident, that his number would probably be retired by the Sabres due to his great career overall, mainly with other hockey clubs.

Hey, again, not against it. Just asking.

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09-05-2012, 03:40 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Hey, again, not against it. Just asking questions here.

So it would be safe to assume, if we acquired Jagr or Pronger and he played for 2 years for the Sabres before dying in an accident, that his number would probably be retired by the Sabres due to his great career overall, mainly with other hockey clubs.

Hey, again, not against it. Just asking.
Nah, I don't think it's safe to assume that, as e.g., Pronger is a *********.


Last edited by brian_griffin: 09-05-2012 at 03:42 PM. Reason: filtered word kinda rhymes with "juice tag"
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Old
09-05-2012, 04:11 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
You see any 1 dimensional, soft scorers eating up huge cap numbers in LA, Boston, Detroit, Pittsburgh?
Do you honestly believe that Vanek couldn't hold a candle to Dustin Penner? Especially if surrounded with high level NHL talent? If any old player can turn it on in the playoffs and completely/unconditionally win your affection, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for Vanek. He's gone on hot streaks like any other player.


Last edited by Dreakon: 09-05-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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09-05-2012, 04:18 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
Do you honestly believe that Vanek couldn't hold a candle to Dustin Penner? If any old player can turn it on in the playoffs and completely/utterly win your heart, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for Vanek.
no one refers to penner as a 1st liner premier scorer...
how much was penner just re-signed for?

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09-05-2012, 04:26 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
no one refers to penner as a 1st liner premier scorer...
Likely because he isn't as good as Vanek.

Besides, you never even said 1st line premier scorer... just scorer. Likely intentional to underrate Vanek (even you admit he's seen as a 1st line premier scorer, though apparently not worth more than Penner), but a common misstep of some Sabres fans who enjoy getting rods discussing how much certain players suck.


Last edited by Dreakon: 09-05-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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09-05-2012, 04:57 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Dreakon View Post
Likely because he isn't as good as Vanek.

Besides, you never even said 1st line premier scorer... just scorer. Likely intentional to underrate Vanek (even you admit he's seen as a 1st line premier scorer, though apparently not worth more than Penner), but a common misstep of some Sabres fans who enjoy getting rods discussing how much certain players suck.
i dont consider vanek a premier scorer
i dont consider penner a premier anything

penner was a 3rd liner in LA

Im not sure what comparison you are trying to make... based on the fact that you quoted me, I can only assume that you think penner is "a 1 dimensional, soft scorer, eating up a large cap number"

penner's cap hit was 3 million less then vanek
his role was as a support player, not a front line player

since penner was brought up... would sabre fans call him a 30 goal scorer?

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09-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #90
Layne Staley
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

since penner was brought up... would sabre fans call him a 30 goal scorer?
Good comparison considering Penner scored 30+ goals ONCE in 7 seasons...or the fact Vanek had 9 more goals then Penner did points last year in a down year.Keep grasping at straws on your hysterical Vanek crusade, it entertains me

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09-05-2012, 06:38 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Good comparison considering Penner scored 30+ goals ONCE in 7 seasons...or the fact Vanek had 9 more goals then Penner did points last year in a down year.Keep grasping at straws on your hysterical Vanek crusade, it entertains me
It wasn't his comparison to begin with, but naturally you jumped in with no idea what was going on just to argue something pointless.

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Old
09-05-2012, 07:25 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
It wasn't his comparison to begin with, but naturally you jumped in with no idea what was going on just to argue something pointless.
He has a point, Jame is basically making the point that we shouldn't call Vanek a 40 goal scorer(correctly I add) for the same reason we wouldn't call Penner a 30 goal scorer. That sort of logic doesn't apply to both players the same, Penner is not the same player that Vanek is, Vanek has proven that he can score goals, Penner has proven that he can eat pancakes.

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09-05-2012, 07:29 PM
  #93
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He has a point, Jame is basically making the point that we shouldn't call Vanek a 40 goal scorer(correctly I add) for the same reason we wouldn't call Penner a 30 goal scorer. That sort of logic doesn't apply to both players the same, Penner is not the same player that Vanek is, Vanek has proven that he can score goals, Penner has proven that he can eat pancakes.
Yup.

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09-05-2012, 11:33 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Guy knows how to score goals, though with all the hate he gets around here, you wouldn't know it. Vanek's one of only 4 active NHLers to have at least 25 goals in each of his first 7 seasons, and he's with some pretty elite company there.

It's clearly Lindy Ruffs fault. Everything's Lindy Ruffs fault

I wouldn't call Vanek a 40 goal scorer by any means, but you do know what your getting in the most part; around a 30+ goal scorer who is an average skater who is great in front of the net on the PP but subsequently will get dinged up for it. People always bring up his contract and although i agree it's not ideal, it is the product of an offersheet afterall. The "But we would have the young Oiler Stars!" argument is always good for a laugh though.

People are hard on him, there's certainly compelling arguments on both sides of the fence for what would be best when it comes to Vanek.


Last edited by Sabres Fan UK: 09-05-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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09-05-2012, 11:35 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishire View Post
He has a point, Jame is basically making the point that we shouldn't call Vanek a 40 goal scorer(correctly I add) for the same reason we wouldn't call Penner a 30 goal scorer. That sort of logic doesn't apply to both players the same, Penner is not the same player that Vanek is, Vanek has proven that he can score goals, Penner has proven that he can eat pancakes.
He can't even do that without injuring himself.

I do agree with your point though.


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09-06-2012, 12:01 AM
  #96
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Who cares if he can skate this is hockey not figure skating, he gets the puck in the net it doesnt realy matter how.

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09-06-2012, 08:55 AM
  #97
RazielMoshman
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I dont think you can win that way anymore... I think the real "elite" forwards, play the game both ways. Parise, Crosby, Giroux... these guys aren't one dimensional scorers... they are complete players.

1 dimensional scorers don't fit in with the style of play necessary to win a championship.

You see any 1 dimensional, soft scorers eating up huge cap numbers in LA, Boston, Detroit, Pittsburgh?



yup... that sucks for Vanek... however, it doesn't change the fact that he's a mercurial softie who doesn't have anywhere close to a complete/well rounded game.



jersey retired? i doubt it.
leading scorer... yea, in an era of complete failure. What will you think of his legacy if over the course of his 7 year contract the Sabres won Zero playoff series?
Parise, Crosby, Giroux? LOL, Vanek isn't on the same level as those guys, of course he isn't. Try these names:

Ryan, Nash, Penner(Playoffs), Carter, Gaborik, Kovalchuk, Jagr (now, not prime).

We lack a Parise, Crosby, Giroux, Malkin type player. So do most teams. My point is simple:

Vanek isn't to blame for our lack of success over the last few years, we've been the Flames of the EC until last season and that was an absurd disappointment.
Vanek is one of the best (top 10-15%) goalscoring forwards in the game today, but his not a miracle worker and not good enough to carry a team that lack a tenacity (Kaleta couldn't do it all). He is an important part of our team though.

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:59 AM
  #98
RazielMoshman
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Originally Posted by Sabres Fan UK View Post
It's clearly Lindy Ruffs fault. Everything's Lindy Ruffs fault

I wouldn't call Vanek a 40 goal scorer by any means, but you do know what your getting in the most part; around a 30+ goal scorer who is an average skater who is great in front of the net on the PP but subsequently will get dinged up for it. People always bring up his contract and although i agree it's not ideal, it is the product of an offersheet afterall. The "But we would have the young Oiler Stars!" argument is always good for a laugh though.

People are hard on him, there's certainly compelling arguments on both sides of the fence for what would be best when it comes to Vanek.
Great post, fantastic avatar pic though.

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Old
09-06-2012, 09:34 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Who cares if he can skate this is hockey not figure skating, he gets the puck in the net it doesnt realy matter how.
Because having a bit of pace and an extra step on opponents is useless in hockey? , not sure where fiqure skating comes into it although agility is always a nice asset to have, as is speed.

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Great post, fantastic avatar pic though.
Thanks nice to see more British hockey fans around here.

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Old
09-06-2012, 09:50 AM
  #100
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When you read (on HF) threads about top forwards in each division, and the majority of responders (who actually picked players) include Vanek, I know he's a top talent. Not elite, not better than THE top forwards in the league. But he is certainly viewed (probably by a majority) by posters on this website as a 1st line forward on most teams. So that eliminates for me, any homerism or bias towards or against a player.

I'm in the boat of .... You Keep him a Sabre UNTIL ....

1. He is hurting the team on or off the ice
And/Or
2. A trade comes along that makes the Sabres better (objectively not subjectively)
And/Or
3. He becomes like Hecht with all the concussions and drop him for his own good
And/Or
4. His contract demands are absurd

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