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Columbus Tried to Sign Jagr

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Old
09-06-2012, 02:23 PM
  #51
mapes
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Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
Pitt has a long history of tanking to draft big players.
Not really. Just Mario.

They were a terrible team in the early part of the decade, one of the worse I've ever seen but they weren't "tanking". They were a team in financial trouble and couldn't afford alot of good players.

In 2003, who were they tanking for? Fleury? I doubt it. 2004 I suppose you could argue management wanted to lose to get Ovechkin but they actually didn't get him. They lost the lottery and therefor got Malkin. They were extremely lucky. 2005 was extremely lucky. 2006 they had Crosby who everyone knew was a generational talent and a team on the rise.

It was more luck than anything, not tanking.

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Old
09-06-2012, 02:36 PM
  #52
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Reminds me at first of the Sergei Fedorov trade... but on second thought, the fact that Doug MacLean wouldn't be around to tear him a new one as soon as he opens his mouth would make such an experiment twelve million times better.

Oh well.

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09-06-2012, 02:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
He has been a senior advisor to Howson for a while now.

The debate about him centers on how much input he actually has and if he was actually a good GM in Pittsburgh or just luckily bad at the right times.
Patrick was a good GM for a long time but he fizzled out badly. He was a great trader as long as the club had assets to trade. Rarely dipped into big free agents, always tried to solve things with trades. Well-respected in the business, a bit shy with the media, pretty nice with his players (unless they held out - that was a 1-way ticket out of town). His downfall was his disregard for drafting and prospect development. Half a dozen 1st round busts and no dedicated farm team in the mid-late 90s killed the pipeline. When the bankcruptcy hit and the Pens had to dump all their big salaries, there was nothing in the system to replace the stars, making the crash that much worse.

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09-06-2012, 03:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by uncleben85 View Post
Okay, okay... I was meaning more like recent notorious Russians coming through and sullying things.

And I'm sure there are Euros in their Ranks, but their day-to-day roster is like 80% North American, sitting up there with teams like Colorado, Minny, LA and Dallas.

It's not a bad thing, just would be nice to see Jagr scoot through there, I think.
Like who? Zherdev was gone 10 days after Filatov was drafted, and the two were never in the same city at the same time. The guy Zherdev was traded for (Tyutin) has caused absolutely no problems.

"Recent notorious Russians"....Tyutin? Nikitin? Mayorov? I'm sorry, which one of them has been problematic?

This is an example of why I cannot stand. There are screaming hordes of people ready to pass judgment on Columbus' fitness to be an NHL team or an NHL market who don't have any idea what the **** they're talking about at all.

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09-06-2012, 03:49 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Like who? Zherdev was gone 10 days after Filatov was drafted, and the two were never in the same city at the same time. The guy Zherdev was traded for (Tyutin) has caused absolutely no problems.

"Recent notorious Russians"....Tyutin? Nikitin? Mayorov? I'm sorry, which one of them has been problematic?

This is an example of why I cannot stand. There are screaming hordes of people ready to pass judgment on Columbus' fitness to be an NHL team or an NHL market who don't have any idea what the **** they're talking about at all.
My personal favorite "Columbus Russians" idiocy is how Nikita Filatov, just by existing, has completely invalidated and condemned 35 other draft picks by the Howson administration as being evidence of "poor drafting". Arguably 40, if you count this year (nobody's willing to call Murray a bust quite yet).

Dean Lombardi blew it with his first rounder in his second year of GMing in LA, too, and yet drafting Thomas Hickey has yet to result in his drafting record being condemned to eternal damnation by HF public opinion. Scott Howson, by contrast, doesn't get that kind of consideration.

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09-06-2012, 04:11 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
My personal favorite "Columbus Russians" idiocy is how Nikita Filatov, just by existing, has completely invalidated and condemned 35 other draft picks by the Howson administration as being evidence of "poor drafting". Arguably 40, if you count this year (nobody's willing to call Murray a bust quite yet).

Dean Lombardi blew it with his first rounder in his second year of GMing in LA, too, and yet drafting Thomas Hickey has yet to result in his drafting record being condemned to eternal damnation by HF public opinion. Scott Howson, by contrast, doesn't get that kind of consideration.
I always like hearing about how Dale Tallon "built the Blackhawks", even though he inherited 90% of the team that won the Cup. His drafting, top to bottom, was a complete atrocity except for the time that he had 1st overall and the time he had 3rd overall (with the two other options being Kessel and Backstrom).

But, this is really no different than Columbus getting an inordinate amount of blame for everything. Rick Nash signs an RFA deal without a cap for $5.4 million a year? Horrible! Awful! Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle sign for $6 million a year in a cap world? Great deal! (Look at that...I just defended a Doug MacLean action)

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Old
09-06-2012, 06:58 PM
  #57
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Aside:
Could some of the Columbus fans be any more insecure? I feel like I need to carry an umbrella so I don't get drenched by all the tears about how your team is really well-run and is good and how consistently finishing in the bottom third of the league isn't a sign of players and/or management sucking, it's really just because... what, because Canadian fans are mean to you?

I get that when your team is bad, people end up with a lot of false or uninformed ideas about the team. I also get that you're in a so-called "non-traditional market" and people make judgments about the team and the fans that they would not make otherwise, which sucks and is unfair. However, I don't think you do yourselves any favors by lashing out at people who are probably misinformed, not malicious. You do not need to respond to every criticism by losing it. I'm pretty surprised by how angry/bitter some of the comments here seem to be.

On topic:
I never would've guessed Columbus would've been on in Jagr, but it makes sense. He's still a skilled player and he apparently made a good mentor in Philly, so I can certainly understand why the Jackets would want to add him- improve the team now, help set some young players up for the future. Seems like a good attempt by Howson with pretty much no downside.

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09-06-2012, 07:02 PM
  #58
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breaking news: Columbus makes attempt to sign free agent

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Old
09-06-2012, 07:19 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model T View Post
Aside:
Could some of the Columbus fans be any more insecure? I feel like I need to carry an umbrella so I don't get drenched by all the tears about how your team is really well-run and is good and how consistently finishing in the bottom third of the league isn't a sign of players and/or management sucking, it's really just because... what, because Canadian fans are mean to you?
15 years of being told how awful you are and how you don't deserve hockey...yeah, that'll take a toll. Being blamed for the NHL labor woes. Having media members talk constantly about how you're not real fans because your team has no fans. Reading about why the league would be better off without you...15 years of that. At what point is enough enough?

And then being blamed for being "defensive"? C'mon.

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09-06-2012, 07:21 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
My personal favorite "Columbus Russians" idiocy is how Nikita Filatov, just by existing, has completely invalidated and condemned 35 other draft picks by the Howson administration as being evidence of "poor drafting". Arguably 40, if you count this year (nobody's willing to call Murray a bust quite yet).

Dean Lombardi blew it with his first rounder in his second year of GMing in LA, too, and yet drafting Thomas Hickey has yet to result in his drafting record being condemned to eternal damnation by HF public opinion. Scott Howson, by contrast, doesn't get that kind of consideration.
Dean Lombardi's team, whether by his own doing or otherwise, has enjoyed success and been on an upward trajectory for a while now. Scott Howson would likely not be subject to such scrutiny (valid or not) if his team had performed similarly.

I am not looking to crap on Scott Howson, nor am I looking to pile on to Columbus when I say being a GM there presents Howson with a lot of challenges. It's just that the record being what it is, criticism is immanent, legit and otherwise.

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:13 PM
  #61
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Yeah, all due respect to Columbus I can't see Jagr signing there.

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Old
09-06-2012, 10:50 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caley View Post
Jeez, you guys are touchy. Still, I know the team was poor, but there were better options than the players who were on the ice. Pittsburgh knew what they were doing when they finished near the bottom of the league, accrue top young assets and let them grow together or find someone with money to bring in free agents. Just like Washington shortly thereafter or most recently Edmonton, there were factors that lead them to the bottom of the league, but those weren't teams who were designed to be playoff teams, those were teams who were designed to accrue good young assets.
Such as?

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Old
09-07-2012, 03:04 AM
  #63
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If only they offered 300k more, Jaromir "**** you, pay me" Jagr would have been a Jacket.

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09-07-2012, 03:06 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
Not really. Just Mario.

They were a terrible team in the early part of the decade, one of the worse I've ever seen but they weren't "tanking". They were a team in financial trouble and couldn't afford alot of good players.

In 2003, who were they tanking for? Fleury? I doubt it. 2004 I suppose you could argue management wanted to lose to get Ovechkin but they actually didn't get him. They lost the lottery and therefor got Malkin. They were extremely lucky. 2005 was extremely lucky. 2006 they had Crosby who everyone knew was a generational talent and a team on the rise.

It was more luck than anything, not tanking.
And that year, a ton of teams tried to tank for Mario. But clueless people will still act like the Pens tanked after that on purpose without really watching hockey those years and understanding the financial situation as well as the injury situation the year they picked high.

The same people making arguments that the Oilers would have finished higher and not picked in the top 5 if this or that guy was healthy, should apply to the Pens as well when they picked Fleury, Malkin, Crosby (lockout), etc.

The fact that someone even said that makes this place hard to sift through to find knowledgeable posters these days, quantity over quality.

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09-07-2012, 03:11 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caley View Post
Jeez, you guys are touchy. Still, I know the team was poor, but there were better options than the players who were on the ice. Pittsburgh knew what they were doing when they finished near the bottom of the league, accrue top young assets and let them grow together or find someone with money to bring in free agents. Just like Washington shortly thereafter or most recently Edmonton, there were factors that lead them to the bottom of the league, but those weren't teams who were designed to be playoff teams, those were teams who were designed to accrue good young assets.
Right, so injuries to key players, financial situation where you had to sell players to teams for crappier players, draft picks, prospects and cash means the team was actually insanely well off and ready to compete but didn't want to because they wanted to tank?

The biggest part of the Jagr trade was $$$. That trade was the beginning of that dark period that most hockey fans that followed the NHL (in general) and knew of the situation, know about.

Pens tanked in 1984, actually, correction...Pens tanked better than the other teams that were trying to tank for Mario in '84. After that, the Pens have tried to build a winner when they could, save for money issues.


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Old
09-07-2012, 07:56 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Model T View Post
I get that when your team is bad, people end up with a lot of false or uninformed ideas about the team. I also get that you're in a so-called "non-traditional market" and people make judgments about the team and the fans that they would not make otherwise, which sucks and is unfair.
So, on an internet discussion forum, when someone has an opinion formed on misinformation, you should just smile and wave? Right because that's what every fanbase does.

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Old
09-07-2012, 10:35 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model T View Post
Aside:
Could some of the Columbus fans be any more insecure? I feel like I need to carry an umbrella so I don't get drenched by all the tears about how your team is really well-run and is good and how consistently finishing in the bottom third of the league isn't a sign of players and/or management sucking, it's really just because... what, because Canadian fans are mean to you?

I get that when your team is bad, people end up with a lot of false or uninformed ideas about the team. I also get that you're in a so-called "non-traditional market" and people make judgments about the team and the fans that they would not make otherwise, which sucks and is unfair. However, I don't think you do yourselves any favors by lashing out at people who are probably misinformed, not malicious. You do not need to respond to every criticism by losing it. I'm pretty surprised by how angry/bitter some of the comments here seem to be.
It's not just some misinformed fans from up north. There's active malice.

We're getting blamed for the lockout, told we don't deserve to exist and/or we (as fans) don't exist and/or don't matter, blamed for HWNHBE*'s malingering and general screwover of the team ("well, if you didn't dress that way suck, you wouldn't have been ***** seen him pout in such a literally unprecedented manner"), and treated as a punchline at best and an active hinderance to the prosperity of the League at worst in what was arguably the ugliest, most unendurable series of Perfect ****storm events for a fanbase in pro sports this year.

At some point, it gets just too excessive.

If it was something so simple as "nobody really cares", that would be irritating, but manageable. We're quite familiar with that. Hell, we've dealt with much worse in the past - recall when Mr. Mac (former owner, beloved icon of the city) passed away suddenly and we got to respond to ghouls celebrating his death because they thought it meant they could poach our team. We endured that, though. But things have gone to a whole new level this year, both in terms of misery on the ice and in the front office and around the rest of the League. Sympathy and/or empathy might be too much to ask for, but neutrality shouldn't be too much of a demand. But we don't even get THAT much consideration.

At some point, you just stop "dealing with it".

Seriously. This thread ought to have been "huh, that's interesting" and move on. Instead, it's become a celebration of "LOL COLUMBUS THEY SUCK". And when we try to respond to that - like every other fanbase on this forum and on the Internet - we're mocked and dismissed for even attempting to do so. "No, no, your team sucks, you have no right to speak up. You don't get to be hockey fans like the rest of us."

At some point, you just run out of tolerance for the ********.

It ain't tears. Nobody's depressed. Folks are pissed off. We've had a whole Perfect ****storm Season to build up said frustration, and y'know what? People mocking the situation with their ignorance, openly advocating for even more ugliness and to impose even worse ordeals on the team and the team's fans? They're Fair Game.


* He Whose Name Has Been Excised, for those who don't know the reference.


Last edited by TMI: 09-07-2012 at 01:12 PM. Reason: flaming / filter
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