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Saad for Plekanec

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Old
09-06-2012, 01:48 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
To give up a proven player for just a prospect doesn't make sense for MON.
the **** is MON?

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09-06-2012, 01:54 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
Players far more valuable than Plek:
Jordan Staal for Sutter and 1st round pick
Mike Richards and Bordson for Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd rounder
Jeff Carter for Voracek and 1st round pick and 3rd round pick

Players comparable to the value of Plek:
Derek Roy for Ott and Pardy
Ribeiro for Eakin and 2nd rounder

I don't see why this is so difficult to figure out.
Those trades that you are posting aren't that accurate. You can't just say "Jeff Carter for Voracek, 1st and 3rd" without acknowledging it was a no 7 pick. Likewise, the Jordan Staal trade was Sutter, 8th overall, and Brian Dumoulin (who is near NHL ready top 4 defensive prospect).

Point being, you are trying to say that the value of Pleks isn't that high because of these trades when most people would say Staal, Richards, and Carter got pretty significant value in their trades.

I'd say a Saad+ lesser roster player/2nd round/solid prospect is definitely within this range.

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Old
09-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
I don't find it unreasonable to say Plekanec is better than Roy. I do however find that of recent trades for centers, Roy's trade is the most relevant because he is the most comparable guy in age, skill set, and the fact that they both are coming off of unspectacular years. That is why i feel that a reasonable value basis would be on the level of Ott and Pardy as opposed to some of the more...interesting evaluations I've seen. I don't really know anything about Pardy so I struggle to find a comparable deal for Chicago to propose.
3-4 years ago, I would agree Roy's value is equal if not superior to Plekanec's. However, recent injury woes and and a minor decline in Roy's game definitely tilt the value debate in Plek's favor, who has actually continued growing into the 2-way stud (borderline Selke candidate, IMO) that he currently is.

Also, I have to mention I've never liked Buffalo's return in the Roy to Dallas trade, so it is hardly convincing for me to argue a Plekanec deal would involve a similar return. Pardy is a non-factor in that trade, from my understanding of things. Very bad value for an above-average 2-way 2nd line C.

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Old
09-06-2012, 02:16 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Clipitar View Post
3-4 years ago, I would agree Roy's value is equal if not superior to Plekanec's. However, recent injury woes and and a minor decline in Roy's game definitely tilt the value debate in Plek's favor, who has actually continued growing into the 2-way stud (borderline Selke candidate, IMO) that he currently is.

Also, I have to mention I've never liked Buffalo's return in the Roy to Dallas trade, so it is hardly convincing for me to argue a Plekanec deal would involve a similar return. Pardy is a non-factor in that trade, from my understanding of things. Very bad value for an above-average 2-way 2nd line C.
Also Roy's value was lowered by the fact that he only has one year remaining on his deal until he becomes a UFA (in addition to his injury issues, decline in production, and rumors of being a problem in the locker room). Plekanec is a better player on a better deal at this point. Montreal should definitely be able to return more for him than Buffalo did for Roy.

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Old
09-06-2012, 02:49 PM
  #80
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Yes please. Saad+ would solve so many issues for this team.

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Old
09-06-2012, 03:01 PM
  #81
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I think it will take more than Saad to get the deal done, but I'm all for it. Not sure Bergevin likes the deal though.

I don't see why Montreal would trade him though, even a rebuilding team still needs a couple lines while the rest of the pieces start really emerging and falling into place. Somebody will offer much more than Saad for him if he is available.

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Old
09-06-2012, 03:29 PM
  #82
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This trade happens if 1) Montreal's season is going down the drain towards the deadline; 2) Galchenyuk looks like he's less than a year away from being NHL-ready; and 3) Chicago adds a pick to the deal (if I was Bergevin, I'd want a 3rd).

Done deal if all those things happen. In limited action, Saad looked damn good with the Blackhawks. All of Montreal's top-6 wing prospects are a few years away from making a real impact. This is the type of guy they would want for Pleks.

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Old
09-06-2012, 05:46 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Saad isn't being moved. Teravainen isn't being moved.

/thread.


Teravainen



Chara

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Old
09-06-2012, 06:05 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Hawk fans in general in this forum like to trump up what ever the flavor of the month is instead of actually looking into what it is that they actually have. Go to their sub forum and see how the potential of teuvo teravainen, who is 165 pounds soaking wet and hasnt played a single minute in NA outside of a prospects camp and has been regulated to euro leagues of which,imo, cant even compare to actual NHL type play and are worse then the AHL, is reguarded as their best prospect as a primer.

At last glace they have a thread with a link to something Corey Pronman had written...case closed.

Um..ok?

And?

Bingo! If he was as great as many wish he was, he would have stuck with the big club. He didnt, and went back to juniors and dominated kids with his size. In the NHL, he wont have that physical luxury, but his size is impressive. If he can actually put it all togther then the Hawks might have something but again, the jury is still out, and you dont trade a question mark for a proven player, sorry.

This has come up countless times with Hawk fans proclaiming Saad a top 10 pick in a redo and it just isnt the case. Injuries? Sure, but the fact remains if he can keep up that type of production against men, and that hasnt been seen yet.

Agreed.
And you are the voice of reason? Quite the opposite in fact judging by your posts on the Hawks' board. They wreak of stupidity.

Your thoughts summed up: AHL is toughest league ever and for awesome players, everyone outside of the AHL, that isn't in the NHL, sucks at hockey, all foreign players are weak and not effective NHLers.

You constantly make awful hockey analyses that are so biased and ridiculous that anyone could see through you. You always talk about how the AHL is a "man's league" and the SEL, KHL, SM-Liiga are far, FAR inferior to it.

And you are supposed to be here offering your wisdom about Brandon Saad? And your one point was "he must have fell in the draft for a reason"? You really aren't worth the time it took to post this. I am glad you are trying to distance yourself from other Hawks' fans though...it was getting embarrassing for us. I'll look forward to your analysis if Saad plays in Rockford this year...it'll be how awesome and great he is and how Teravainen sucks is a Euro weakling until he plays in Rockford or Chicago and makes you look like an idiot. You are so biased and illogical about anything related to hockey because of your weird love for the AHL even though it is mostly inferior to leagues like the SEL and KHL.


Last edited by RomersWorld*: 09-06-2012 at 06:11 PM.
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Old
09-06-2012, 07:13 PM
  #85
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I am sad for Plekanec.....and Price and Subban and Pacioretty...

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Old
09-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  #86
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I do not want to trade Plekanec. However, if I were to try to work a deal around Pleks and Saad, my offer would be:

Plekanec + 2013 3rd

For

Saad, 2013 1st, Jimmy Hayes

Montreal loses the terrific PK specialist and shut down guy wh can produce 55-65 points.

Chicago loses some good prospects with size.

Both teams gain, both lose.

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Old
09-06-2012, 07:38 PM
  #87
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TT and Saad
for
Plekanek Webber or Diaz and a 2nd

This would solve our long term needs on the left side

Habs are not going anywhere for the next couple of years, but in 2 years watch out

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Old
09-06-2012, 07:54 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginovegas View Post
TT and Saad
for
Plekanek Webber or Diaz and a 2nd

This would solve our long term needs on the left side

Habs are not going anywhere for the next couple of years, but in 2 years watch out
LOL, ya right.

Plekanec is good, but not worth 2 top prospects.

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:52 PM
  #89
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Plecks, Cole

TT, Saad, McNeill, 2013 1st

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:55 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickschultzfan View Post
Good cores are around the same age. By the time the Habs are going to be any good, Plekanec and Cole are going to be on the backsides of their careers.

Saad, McNeil, and Hjarm all make the Habs bigger and tougher, but still bring a lot of skill. They'll be hitting their stride at the same time as the other core players on the Habs.

Short term lost. Bigger long term gain.
Plekanec is 29 years old. Price is 25 ?????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
Players far more valuable than Plek:
Jordan Staal for Sutter and 1st round pick
Mike Richards and Bordson for Schenn, Simmonds, 2nd rounder
Jeff Carter for Voracek and 1st round pick and 3rd round pick

Players comparable to the value of Plek:
Derek Roy for Ott and Pardy
Ribeiro for Eakin and 2nd rounder

I don't see why this is so difficult to figure out.
Richards and Plekanec are literally the same freaking player. Staal has never produced more than Plekanec. Carter is a known giver of fuk and nowhere near his ppg season, Roy and Ribeiro are rentals and not comparable to plekanec ATM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Best season? How about points per game in their careers? Me thinks you don't want to go there.
Or even points in the playoffs...
There is not 1 thing Plekanec is better at than Toews.

The better two way palyer is Toews.
Offensively Toews is better.
Leadership Toews is far better.
Faceoffs Toews is better.


It's not close no matter what way you try to spin it.

FYI - Toews outscored Plekanec (LAST YEAR) by 5pts in 22 less games...
How about Plekanec was a 4th line checker until he was 25 ? He's not better than Plekanec defensively. I already mentioned that Toews was better every where else. I've made it clear Toews was better, no matter if you're butt-hurt because your overated captain his pretty much on par with our meeeeh 2nd line center, fact is, Kane, Hossa and Sharp is elite compared to Kostitsyn, Cammaleri, Kovalev. (And that is the 3 best players he played with.)

Now this is over, I know i'll never win on this, media went to hard on the Toews-wagon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
LOL, ya right.

Plekanec is good, but not worth 2 top prospects.
...I'm underating Toews you say ? 2 top prospect ? Those aren't top prospect.

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Old
09-06-2012, 09:00 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by AmeriHab View Post
Plecks, Cole

TT, Saad, McNeill, 2013 1st
While this might buy the Hawks a cup, they would instantly become the worst franchise in hockey in terms of quality prospects. Crippling would be an understatement.

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Old
09-06-2012, 09:03 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Plekanec is 29 years old. Price is 25 ?????????


Richards and Plekanec are literally the same freaking player. Staal has never produced more than Plekanec. Carter is a known giver of fuk and nowhere near his ppg season, Roy and Ribeiro are rentals and not comparable to plekanec ATM.



How about Plekanec was a 4th line checker until he was 25 ? He's not better than Plekanec defensively. I already mentioned that Toews was better every where else. I've made it clear Toews was better, no matter if you're butt-hurt because your overated captain his pretty much on par with our meeeeh 2nd line center, fact is, Kane, Hossa and Sharp is elite compared to Kostitsyn, Cammaleri, Kovalev. (And that is the 3 best players he played with.)

Now this is over, I know i'll never win on this, media went to hard on the Toews-wagon.



...I'm underating Toews you say ? 2 top prospect ? Those aren't top prospect.
Toews is a fantastic player. One of the most all-around players in hockey. He possesses elite vision, defensive play and stickhandling. He's a leader with a fantastic work ethic. He might be a tad overrated, but stop selling him short.

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Old
09-06-2012, 09:03 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeriHab View Post
Plecks, Cole

TT, Saad, McNeill, 2013 1st
So a 2nd line C and vet 2nd line winger

for

Hawks 2011 1st rounder (McNeill)
Hawks 2012 1st rounder (TT)
Hawks 2013 1st rounder (?)
And our best prospect (Saad)

Yeah ,, Gonna have to pass

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09-06-2012, 09:03 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Hawk fans in general in this forum like to trump up what ever the flavor of the month is instead of actually looking into what it is that they actually have. Go to their sub forum and see how the potential of teuvo teravainen, who is 165 pounds soaking wet and hasnt played a single minute in NA outside of a prospects camp and has been regulated to euro leagues of which,imo, cant even compare to actual NHL type play and are worse then the AHL, is reguarded as their best prospect as a primer.

At last glace they have a thread with a link to something Corey Pronman had written...case closed.

Um..ok?

And?

Bingo! If he was as great as many wish he was, he would have stuck with the big club. He didnt, and went back to juniors and dominated kids with his size. In the NHL, he wont have that physical luxury, but his size is impressive. If he can actually put it all togther then the Hawks might have something but again, the jury is still out, and you dont trade a question mark for a proven player, sorry.

This has come up countless times with Hawk fans proclaiming Saad a top 10 pick in a redo and it just isnt the case. Injuries? Sure, but the fact remains if he can keep up that type of production against men, and that hasnt been seen yet.

Agreed.
So if a player doesn't stick with his team for the whole year the year after being drafted he's a bust in your eyes? Good to know RNH, Landeskog, Larsson, and Couturier are the only good players to come out of the 2011 NHL Draft. The NHL is going to be pretty awful in a few years when all we have are all the busts from the last few drafts to deal with.

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09-06-2012, 09:04 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
So a 2nd line C and vet 2nd line winger

for

Hawks 2011 1st rounder (McNeill)
Hawks 2012 1st rounder (TT)
Hawks 2013 1st rounder (?)
And our best prospect (Saad)

Yeah ,, Gonna have to pass
Do you know many 35-goal 2nd line wingers? Anyway, no need to expand because I agree it's not a deal that would benefit the Hawks other than short term.

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09-06-2012, 09:27 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
How about Plekanec was a 4th line checker until he was 25 ? He's not better than Plekanec defensively. I already mentioned that Toews was better every where else. I've made it clear Toews was better, no matter if you're butt-hurt because your overated captain his pretty much on par with our meeeeh 2nd line center, fact is, Kane, Hossa and Sharp is elite compared to Kostitsyn, Cammaleri, Kovalev. (And that is the 3 best players he played with.)

Now this is over, I know i'll never win on this, media went to hard on the Toews-wagon.



...I'm underating Toews you say ? 2 top prospect ? Those aren't top prospect.
Toews is better defensively, it's clear.

FOs
Toews - 59% 1st overall
Plek - 49% 61st overall

Takeaways
Toews - 82 in 59games
Plek - 43 in 81games

Giveaways
Toews - 25 in 59games
Plek - 43 in 81games

+/-
Toews - +17
Plek - -15

I could keep going ...

Plekanec had a star goalie, and a better defensive team as a whole than Chicago did and still finished -32 behind Toews. Plekanec is no where near Toews, in anything.

He is a great 2nd line C, would love to have him, Saad + Morin(or 2nd in 2014) + Hayes is as far as I would go.

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09-06-2012, 09:37 PM
  #97
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The stats are there, but I wouldn't say mtl had a better defensive team... Montreal was killed by injuries, forcing a 2nd year subban into the #1 position and having rookies play big minutes

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09-06-2012, 09:47 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Toews is better defensively, it's clear.

FOs
Toews - 59% 1st overall
Plek - 49% 61st overall

Takeaways
Toews - 82 in 59games
Plek - 43 in 81games

Giveaways
Toews - 25 in 59games
Plek - 43 in 81games

+/-
Toews - +17
Plek - -15

I could keep going ...

Plekanec had a star goalie, and a better defensive team as a whole than Chicago did and still finished -32 behind Toews. Plekanec is no where near Toews, in anything.

He is a great 2nd line C, would love to have him, Saad + Morin(or 2nd in 2014) + Hayes is as far as I would go.
I would be willing to accept Saad, Morin, and Jimmy Hayes for Plekanec. I think Chicago is better served offering something other than Morin, though, because losing Morin AND Saad depletes your LW prospect pool a bit. I would take that deal, though.

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Old
09-06-2012, 11:49 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
And you are the voice of reason?
In all honesty, I am the voice of logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Quite the opposite in fact judging by your posts on the Hawks' board. They wreak of stupidity.
Rubbish. Unlike many on the Hawks forum who read scouting reports on the internet I actually have seen the prospects in Rockford and offer nothing but my unbiased opinion. Sometimes the truth hurts, and I dont blame many for being conflicted and hurt by some of the things, truthful things that I say. But, the naked eye see's much, much more then a couple dedicated fans who have read hockey prospect sites and have simulated their favorite prospect onto an NHL team on a video game.

I wont even mention the fact that this annual flavor of the month with (insert prospect here) happens each and every year from just reading the Hawks forum, Morin, Beach, Kruger,etc have all been that next great player and quite honestly it gets rather humorous watching the speculation and the defensive posturing one will take to meatshield their favorites on a message board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
Your thoughts summed up: AHL is toughest league ever and for awesome players, everyone outside of the AHL, that isn't in the NHL, sucks at hockey, all foreign players are weak and not effective NHLers.
The AHL is the best proving ground in the world to ready players for the NHL, bar none.
Juniors is just that, a refuge for up and coming players to show off their talents and the A is where they prove they have what it takes unless they are a Patrick Kane who is something special. There isnt a single person in the world who can tell me different. My stance on foreign players is my own, but as a hard line old school type, I prefer NA players over foreign players but thats just me and my opinion, I, also expect more out of a NA player to a certain degree and was proven correct when Kruger flopped last year on a team that is a Cup challenger right now and doesnt deserve to have a marginal talent anywhere near their top four lines that doesnt provide a single thing redeeming enough to actually have them out there.

Not that I havent said Hossa is the best player on the Hawks, either....foreign player and all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
You constantly make awful hockey analyses that are so biased and ridiculous that anyone could see through you. You always talk about how the AHL is a "man's league" and the SEL, KHL, SM-Liiga are far, FAR inferior to it.
They are. Your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
And you are supposed to be here offering your wisdom about Brandon Saad?
Wait, that he prove himself while playing against men instead of actually fathoming his worth being Pleks? Sorry, but a proven commidity will always have more value then an unproven one, of which Saad is, and until he actually proves himself, he alone is not even a decent start of a player who could actually help the Hawks stability. Brandon Saad isnt a sure thing, neither is TT, and thats the bottom line or they would have, imagine this, been nowhere near the Hawks when it came to their turn on the podium. Both are projects with projectable upside if things actually fall into place for both.

Why, in gods name would the Habs even think about trading away their top line center for a couple of question marks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomersWorld View Post
And your one point was "he must have fell in the draft for a reason"? You really aren't worth the time it took to post this. I am glad you are trying to distance yourself from other Hawks' fans though...it was getting embarrassing for us. I'll look forward to your analysis if Saad plays in Rockford this year...it'll be how awesome and great he is and how Teravainen sucks is a Euro weakling until he plays in Rockford or Chicago and makes you look like an idiot. You are so biased and illogical about anything related to hockey because of your weird love for the AHL even though it is mostly inferior to leagues like the SEL and KHL.
You are repeating yourself.


Last edited by spiny norman: 09-07-2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason: not needed
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Old
09-07-2012, 02:08 AM
  #100
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N.Leddy, McNeil 1st
Plekanec,Weber

Chicago brings up Clendening

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