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Old
09-06-2012, 04:15 PM
  #26
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Franson and steckel for 1st 2013

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09-06-2012, 04:36 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Doesn't matter, Franson's value is that of a good young NHL'er who still has very good upside. He's easily worth a prospect that hasn't proven anything at the NHL level yet.
Just because Franson has NHL experience doesn't mean he's proven anything yet. He was solid in Nashville then floated in and out of the leafs for his tenure. I wouldn't call him much of a proven NHLer either. for Sheahan, you can keep him on the pine.

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Old
09-06-2012, 04:40 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
You completely missed the point just like Boondock did.
Not really. It's more like you're missing the point people are trying to make with your argument. Your player with potential still has potential, but he also has a ton of question marks. While Sheahan does as well, his value to Detroit is much higher than Franson's would be.

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Old
09-06-2012, 08:00 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Not really. It's more like you're missing the point people are trying to make with your argument. Your player with potential still has potential, but he also has a ton of question marks. While Sheahan does as well, his value to Detroit is much higher than Franson's would be.
What question marks do you have about Franson? He's a power play trigger man with a very accurate shot. He's an average defender who decided to use his size more effectively once traded to the Leafs. He is what he is, anywhere between a 4th to 7th defenseman, depending on the team he's on.

He was benched so much on the Leafs last season because Wilson wanted Komisarek and Schenn on the ice to provide a physical element, although they were both complete disasters defensively. Franson outplayed both Komi and Schenn by a country mile, it was just a matter of having 4 other defenseman that were better puck movers (Phaneuf, Liles, Gardiner and Gunnarsson).

In the end, he's still a young, useful defenseman on most teams...and yes, he is a proven NHL defenseman. 200 games in 3 seasons is proven.


Last edited by Drew311: 09-06-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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09-06-2012, 08:02 PM
  #30
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I don't want to trade anyone to Detroit. White, Fanson, Steckle and Gustafsson, key components in next Red Wing cup victory, I can see the headlines already.

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09-06-2012, 08:14 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Just because Franson has NHL experience doesn't mean he's proven anything yet. He was solid in Nashville then floated in and out of the leafs for his tenure. I wouldn't call him much of a proven NHLer either. for Sheahan, you can keep him on the pine.
Franson's first 3 NHL seasons (all with limited ice time/role) and he still has plenty of upside,

2009/10 - 21 points in 61 games, 28 point pace
2010/11 - 29 points in 80 games, 30 point pace
2011/12 - 21 points in 57 games, 30 point pace


Frason>Sheahan and it's not even close.

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09-06-2012, 08:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Not really. It's more like you're missing the point people are trying to make with your argument. Your player with potential still has potential, but he also has a ton of question marks. While Sheahan does as well, his value to Detroit is much higher than Franson's would be.
Sheahan has done nothing in the NHL while Franson already has done something in the NHL three years consecutively. You got it backwards IMO.

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Old
09-06-2012, 10:20 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
What question marks do you have about Franson? He's a power play trigger man with a very accurate shot. He's an average defender who decided to use his size more effectively once traded to the Leafs. He is what he is, anywhere between a 4th to 7th defenseman, depending on the team he's on.

He was benched so much on the Leafs last season because Wilson wanted Komisarek and Schenn on the ice to provide a physical element, although they were both complete disasters defensively. Franson outplayed both Komi and Schenn by a country mile, it was just a matter of having 4 other defenseman that were better puck movers (Phaneuf, Liles, Gardiner and Gunnarsson).

In the end, he's still a young, useful defenseman on most teams...and yes, he is a proven NHL defenseman. 200 games in 3 seasons is proven.
QFT.

Franson gets such an unreasonable amount of hate on these boards, simply because he's a relatively expendable member of the Leafs. Yeah, there's nothing particularly special about his game, but there's also no glaring flaws other than the fact that he doesn't use his size as well as he could.

Heck, the only reason he's expendable is because the Leafs would prefer a more defensive minded player alongside their higher priority guys.

As for Detroit's interest -- it should be high. The Wings are a team that thrive on puck possession, which caters towards Franson's game, and are short on blueliners.

Of course, the question then becomes price -- which is where the problem is. Franson isn't actually expendable unless a proven shutdown guy is heading to Toronto. The Red Wings aren't going to part with one. So, you look at the Leafs other needs, and see if it's possible to fill a bigger hole while creating a smaller one, but the Leafs remaining needs are a #1C or #1G. The Red Wings' certainly aren't going to part with one of those. Unless you get into the possibilities of a 3rd team getting involved, there isn't a deal to be had here.

If another team gets Toronto a blueliner at the cost of forward depth (guys like MacArthur, Lombardi, etc.), then that certainly opens doors, as the a forward-for-defence trade would make sense.

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Old
09-07-2012, 02:47 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
QFT.

Franson gets such an unreasonable amount of hate on these boards, simply because he's a relatively expendable member of the Leafs. Yeah, there's nothing particularly special about his game, but there's also no glaring flaws other than the fact that he doesn't use his size as well as he could.

Heck, the only reason he's expendable is because the Leafs would prefer a more defensive minded player alongside their higher priority guys.

As for Detroit's interest -- it should be high. The Wings are a team that thrive on puck possession, which caters towards Franson's game, and are short on blueliners.

Of course, the question then becomes price -- which is where the problem is. Franson isn't actually expendable unless a proven shutdown guy is heading to Toronto. The Red Wings aren't going to part with one. So, you look at the Leafs other needs, and see if it's possible to fill a bigger hole while creating a smaller one, but the Leafs remaining needs are a #1C or #1G. The Red Wings' certainly aren't going to part with one of those. Unless you get into the possibilities of a 3rd team getting involved, there isn't a deal to be had here.

If another team gets Toronto a blueliner at the cost of forward depth (guys like MacArthur, Lombardi, etc.), then that certainly opens doors, as the a forward-for-defence trade would make sense.
No it shouldn't. Detroit has enough PMD already. Toronto can keep him, especially for Sheahan's value.

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Old
09-07-2012, 06:35 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by kerjuxaxaxa View Post
No it shouldn't. Detroit has enough PMD already. Toronto can keep him, especially for Sheahan's value.
Detroit is a team built around, and for puckmovers, so they would have interest.

As for Sheahan, I don't know if Detroit would be willing to trade him, but I do know that the Leafs wouldn't be looking for prospects at this point in time... so he's not the guy that would be discussed anyways.

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Old
09-07-2012, 06:54 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Detroit is a team built around, and for puckmovers, so they would have interest.

As for Sheahan, I don't know if Detroit would be willing to trade him, but I do know that the Leafs wouldn't be looking for prospects at this point in time... so he's not the guy that would be discussed anyways.
You guys are missing what we are saying, in fact it keeps happening a lot around here. Detroit needs more stay at home D-man. The assets would be higher but even the Yandle trade at this point is pretty stupid from a Detroit stand point. They don't need another power play guy, they don't need another PMD.

Kronwall, Quincey, White, Smith, and Kindl are all puck moving d-man. What they need is another shutdown/PK guy with Ericsson as the lone guy in that category. You can also throw on top of this whole PP discussion Detroit is more than likely going to play Samuelsson on one of the points, they did during his last stay in Detroit and he played the role in Vancouver as well.

Now yes in the possession based system they want a guy that can handle the puck and make a decent first pass. That is all he doesn't have to be a PMD. They certainly would not pay for one with a high value prospect or pick. If they are going that route they will just sign Carlo Colaiacovo, an offer extended to him already made a lot of us scratch our head. Personally I hope they chase Rozsival. In any case the need for a PMD because of system is being overblown by some people in this tread. That isn't an issue with Detroit's defenseman.

I would also add have seen Franson a lot, I am surprised he didn't turn out better, but his performances were up and down even in Milwaukee. I don't think he is an upgrade over Kindl and his biggest asset is his PP abilities. Something he would never get the chance to do in Detroit.


Last edited by The Zetterberg Era: 09-07-2012 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Rozsival's name spelling, think I do that wrong everytime.
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Old
09-07-2012, 09:03 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by probertrules24 View Post


Franson + Steckel



Eaves + Emmerton + 2nd

Detroit can use another Dman to fight for the last roster spot and adding Steckel could help with getting a bigger 4th line center to take/win draws.

Could also swap Miller for Eaves if injuries would be a concern.

Would the value be close?
Eaves might be damaged goods at this point. Trade makes little sense for the Leafs.

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Old
09-07-2012, 09:16 AM
  #38
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Show me a Detroit proposal without Cory Emmerton in it. I've yet to see one
He's the poor man's Boyd Devereaux.... Nobody ever wants him

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09-07-2012, 10:55 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Detroit is a team built around, and for puckmovers, so they would have interest.

As for Sheahan, I don't know if Detroit would be willing to trade him, but I do know that the Leafs wouldn't be looking for prospects at this point in time... so he's not the guy that would be discussed anyways.
Detroit needs a defensive d-man, as they currently have only one. They do not need another puck-mover.

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Old
09-07-2012, 11:03 AM
  #40
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I want Helm and Kindl, what will it take?

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Old
09-07-2012, 11:28 AM
  #41
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I want Helm and Kindl, what will it take?
Kindl doesn't hold much value but Helm is pretty valuable to us. We would have no one to center the third line in that case unless someone surprises at the camp. Well, maybe Tatar.

And there's nothing on Toronto that could be realistically had for that package that we would want. Well Kulemin would be nice but that would me more or less a lateral move.

And we just re-signed Helm like month ago. Holland is not trading him.

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Old
09-07-2012, 02:17 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Just because Franson has NHL experience doesn't mean he's proven anything yet. He was solid in Nashville then floated in and out of the leafs for his tenure. I wouldn't call him much of a proven NHLer either. for Sheahan, you can keep him on the pine.
To be fair Franson never got much of a chance with Ron Wilson and only played more often when someone like Komisarek was injured. I think he will be given a chance with Randy Carlyle to earn his spot because he deserves that.

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09-07-2012, 02:41 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Franson's first 3 NHL seasons (all with limited ice time/role) and he still has plenty of upside,

2009/10 - 21 points in 61 games, 28 point pace
2010/11 - 29 points in 80 games, 30 point pace
2011/12 - 21 points in 57 games, 30 point pace


Frason>Sheahan and it's not even close.
You do realize I could say this about a Kindl for Biggs trade by this logic?

The Wings should hold onto Kindl because they need D-man but guessing you would be outraged that was my demanding point. If I was you I would probably also then ask for a draft pick you don't want to part with on top of it.

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09-07-2012, 02:56 PM
  #44
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I can see Detroit doing this as Franson would fill a need for them on defense. Toronto has no reason to do it though.

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09-07-2012, 03:31 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
You do realize I could say this about a Kindl for Biggs trade by this logic?

The Wings should hold onto Kindl because they need D-man but guessing you would be outraged that was my demanding point. If I was you I would probably also then ask for a draft pick you don't want to part with on top of it.
I'm not outraged at all, it's a good proposal in fact. But I wouldn't do it because we need Biggs more then we need Kindl IMO. We're really short on PF's in our system and we have high hopes for him.

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09-07-2012, 05:15 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
I'm not outraged at all, it's a good proposal in fact. But I wouldn't do it because we need Biggs more then we need Kindl IMO. We're really short on PF's in our system and we have high hopes for him.
The Wings aren't exactly swimming in power forward prospects either. Part of Sheahan's value making it a no go from our standpoint. The Wings have talked a lot about needing to get bigger, Sheahan is a big part of that. Really Jarnkrok and him are the only center prospects they have that are top 9 guys in the future. Datsyuk will eventually move on maybe as soon as two years from now, but within 5 years. Z will eventually go back to wing. Filppula probably will move back to center and Jarnkrok is nice, but the center depth isn't absolutely certain. Maybe Sheahan plus roster player and pick for Schenn would have been doable before his trade because he fits a massive need. However, Sheahan won't be available unless the trade is a slam dunk type scenario. The Wings would wait until at least this deadline (see what they have in him in the AHL, his offense remains a concern) before considering it unless it is a big trade and this isn't one of those trades.

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Old
09-08-2012, 06:12 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
Sheahan has done nothing in the NHL while Franson already has done something in the NHL three years consecutively. You got it backwards IMO.
Franson has played in the NHL as the 6th dman in Nashville, and as a healthy scratch/ bottom pairing guy in Toronto. Hes plain and simple not that good of a player except on the PP. Hes a pylon defensively.

Sheahan saw some NHL time last year already after having not played any pro hockey until than and is a guaranteed NHL forward. Question is is he just a big, physical defensive fourth liner or a 2nd or 3rd liner.

You dont give that up for a bottom pairing defender from a bad defensive team

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09-08-2012, 07:40 PM
  #48
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Franson has played in the NHL as the 6th dman in Nashville, and as a healthy scratch/ bottom pairing guy in Toronto. Hes plain and simple not that good of a player except on the PP. Hes a pylon defensively.

Sheahan saw some NHL time last year already after having not played any pro hockey until than and is a guaranteed NHL forward. Question is is he just a big, physical defensive fourth liner or a 2nd or 3rd liner.

You dont give that up for a bottom pairing defender from a bad defensive team
And all that tells me is you haven't watched Franson play in the NHL much, if at all. He produces at even strength, 3/4 of his production comes from there compared to on the PP.

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09-09-2012, 02:03 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
And all that tells me is you haven't watched Franson play in the NHL much, if at all. He produces at even strength, 3/4 of his production comes from there compared to on the PP.
As a wings fan living in the golden hroseshoe I see plenty of Toronto and I watched a solid amount of his time in Nashville. Hes slow and not good defensively. And Steckel is useless as well.

Franson could barely crack one of the worst blue lines in the league and had Komi in the lineup over him on more than one occasion

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09-09-2012, 02:15 PM
  #50
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As a wings fan living in the golden hroseshoe I see plenty of Toronto and I watched a solid amount of his time in Nashville. Hes slow and not good defensively. And Steckel is useless as well.

Franson could barely crack one of the worst blue lines in the league and had Komi in the lineup over him on more than one occasion
Franon's not a shutdown defender, that's why Komi was in the line up over him.

The offensive dmen that kept Franson down on our depth chart are Phaneuf, Liles and Gardiner. Franson's not slow either, quite the opposite in fact. It's pretty obvious you're reaching a little to hard about a team and specifically a player you know very little about.

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