HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Weber's Deal Finalized, Contains no NMC/NTC

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-06-2012, 05:07 PM
  #76
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more.

If I'm a gm and one of my players, who does not have a NTC or NMC, asks to be dealt, I'm trading him to the team that makes the best offer. I'm not consulting that player or his rep, asking ' where would you like to be dealt '.
Sounds great, too bad it usually doesn't go down like that.

Remember Phil Kessels list of teams? (among many other examples).

Maybe if we blindside Weber with a trade he won't have an opportunity to inform of the team of his desired destinations. But if a trade is at all in the air, you can bet he'll have a list. And if a team isn't on the list, they are unlikely to want to trade for a player who doesn't want to play for them.

I'm glad he doesn't have a NTC, but it's unlikely going to matter if it comes to that point.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 05:11 PM
  #77
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,023
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Sounds great, too bad it usually doesn't go down like that.

Remember Phil Kessels list of teams? (among many other examples).

Maybe if we blindside Weber with a trade he won't have an opportunity to inform of the team of his desired destinations. But if a trade is at all in the air, you can bet he'll have a list. And if a team isn't on the list, they are unlikely to want to trade for a player who doesn't want to play for them.

I'm glad he doesn't have a NTC, but it's unlikely going to matter if it comes to that point.
Remember Phil Kessel was a RFA when he was dealt and didn't have a contract in place so where he was being dealt was a big deal. Weber is signed and we can move him anywhere we want. Big difference.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 08:22 PM
  #78
CREW99AW
Registered User
 
CREW99AW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,083
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Sounds great, too bad it usually doesn't go down like that.

Remember Phil Kessels list of teams? (among many other examples).

Maybe if we blindside Weber with a trade he won't have an opportunity to inform of the team of his desired destinations. But if a trade is at all in the air, you can bet he'll have a list. And if a team isn't on the list, they are unlikely to want to trade for a player who doesn't want to play for them.

I'm glad he doesn't have a NTC, but it's unlikely going to matter if it comes to that point.
Kessel was a restricted free agent and Boston was worried about Kessel getting an offersheet.

There is a huge difference between a rfa Kessel and Weber signed to a contract, without a NTC/NMC.

CREW99AW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 08:26 PM
  #79
CREW99AW
Registered User
 
CREW99AW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,083
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Remember Phil Kessel was a RFA when he was dealt and didn't have a contract in place so where he was being dealt was a big deal. Weber is signed and we can move him anywhere we want. Big difference.
I made the same points before reading your post.

Kessel had the ability to sign with another team, dictate where he'd be playing.

A signed Weber, without a NTC/NMC has no leverage to be dictating where he'd be dealt. Yes, he may turn out to be an unhappy player on his new team, but would that be Poile's concern? Shouldn't his big concern, be getting the absolute highest return he could for Weber?

CREW99AW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 10:47 PM
  #80
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I made the same points before reading your post.

Kessel had the ability to sign with another team, dictate where he'd be playing.

A signed Weber, without a NTC/NMC has no leverage to be dictating where he'd be dealt. Yes, he may turn out to be an unhappy player on his new team, but would that be Poile's concern? Shouldn't his big concern, be getting the absolute highest return he could for Weber?
If a trade is in the air, Weber have a huge say in where he's going. See Jordan Staal as the most recent example if you don't like Phil Kessel.

Yes, we can blindside Weber and trade him to Jackets-eque team for the best return. But more than likely, if it comes to it, it will be be made known that either 1) Weber wants out, or 2) That Nashville is shopping him. If that time comes, Weber (his agents) will made it knows where he wants to go, both to David Poile and the rest of hte GMs.

It really doesn't matter. Weber is signed. Poile doesn't trade roster player, ever. He's not going anywhere unless it gets nasty.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 10:56 PM
  #81
TMI
Mod Supervisor
 
TMI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 44,276
vCash: 500
Staal also didn't have a contract. You are naming players who were not signed to any team before they were traded. Of course their desire to play for a specific team (or lack thereof) is going to hold some leverage. Weber is signed for 14 years. He can't back out of it now unless he wants to retire, but then he would be leaving a lot of money on the table just because he's pouting.

Also, you said if he Weber starts sucking at 37 we can just ship him to the minor where we can pay hi $7m without it hitting our cap. Incorrect. We would be paying hi $1m.

TMI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 11:27 PM
  #82
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Staal also didn't have a contract.
Yes, Staal did have a contract.

And Weber will be payed $6 million in the 10th year of his deal from the breakdown I read. It's 1 million when he's 39,40,41.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-06-2012, 11:42 PM
  #83
Drury_Sakic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I couldn't disagree with you more.

If I'm a gm and one of my players, who does not have a NTC or NMC, asks to be dealt, I'm trading him to the team that makes the best offer. I'm not consulting that player or his rep, asking ' where would you like to be dealt '.

I'm also not going to be very concerned, with whether the player is going to 'happily play for his new team'. That's for him and his new team to work out.

Good job by Poile, not budging off the NTC/NMC issue. I've read Weber's recent comments. He does not sound unhappy or sound as if he's going to play with a chip on his shoulder, over not getting a NTC. He talks about moving past the whole offersheet issue and says he hopes to spend the next 14 seasons, playing for the Preds.
It depends on the situation. If you have a young up and coming player, perhaps you throw caution to the wind and trade him where the best deal is....but if you are trading an older star player or even an older role player who is looking at one final crack at the cup...and the player is popular in your fan base and is a decent guy...any GM worth anything is looking to find a destination that both makes the player happy AND gets you a good return.

Just because you may lose out a tad on the trade does not mean it is not worth it in the long run when it comes to building the reputation of the GM and the team.

For example, take Ray Bourque. Honestly not sure if he had any type of NMC, but I would have to imagine that he was at least asked about Colordo before being traded there. There you have a respected older player...and it mattered to both the player, the Bruins, and the B's fan base where he went.

On the flip side, there is Jeff Carter.....

Drury_Sakic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 08:24 AM
  #84
CREW99AW
Registered User
 
CREW99AW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,083
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If a trade is in the air, Weber have a huge say in where he's going. See Jordan Staal as the most recent example if you don't like Phil Kessel.
Yes, we can blindside Weber and trade him to Jackets-eque team for the best return. But more than likely, if it comes to it, it will be be made known that either 1) Weber wants out, or 2) That Nashville is shopping him. If that time comes, Weber (his agents) will made it knows where he wants to go, both to David Poile and the rest of hte GMs.

It really doesn't matter. Weber is signed. Poile doesn't trade roster player, ever. He's not going anywhere unless it gets nasty.
Staal was scheduled to be a ufa in July 2013. Weber is signed longterm.

You forget that teams wanted Staal to agree to a extension, so they did not end up giving up top talent, for a 1 yr rental.

The players you keep listing ( rfa Kessel + impending ufa Staal), had much more leverage then a signed Weber does.

And I'm not saying the Preds should not keep Weber, for the entire term of his new contract. I'm saying Poile did a good job, holding out and refusing to give Weber a NTC/NMC.
If at anytime in the future, Nashville looks to move Weber, they will likely find stronger offers if they offer him to all 29 other teams, as opposed to offering him to a selected 5-10 teams.

CREW99AW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 08:32 AM
  #85
CREW99AW
Registered User
 
CREW99AW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 29,083
vCash: 500
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic View Post
It depends on the situation. If you have a young up and coming player, perhaps you throw caution to the wind and trade him where the best deal is....but if you are trading an older star player or even an older role player who is looking at one final crack at the cup...and the player is popular in your fan base and is a decent guy...any GM worth anything is looking to find a destination that both makes the player happy AND gets you a good return.
I was thinking of Nash and Loungo.
Nash reportedly had a list of 5/6 teams. If Nash didn't have a NTC, if Columbus had been able to include more teams in the bidding, would they have gotten stronger offers?

According to press reports, Luongowith his NTC, is resisting a trade to Toronto and wants to return to the Panthers. FL has Theodore+ Markham. Toronto has a couple of young, unimpressive, warm bodies. Which team is more likely to offer up something significant to Vancouver?

Quote:
Just because you may lose out a tad on the trade does not mean it is not worth it in the long run when it comes to building the reputation of the GM and the team.

For example, take Ray Bourque. Honestly not sure if he had any type of NMC, but I would have to imagine that he was at least asked about Colordo before being traded there. There you have a respected older player...and it mattered to both the player, the Bruins, and the B's fan base where he went.
I'm not saying Poile should go out of his way, to trade a player to somewhere he'll be unhappy. I'm saying it's Poile's job to get the best return he can for his player. If that return comes from a team Weber does not want to play for, that's unfortunate for Weber and his new team.

CREW99AW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 10:12 AM
  #86
Viqsi
carrying the flag
 
Viqsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Scary Internet
Country: United States
Posts: 20,548
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Viqsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If you're getting 20 minutes of ice time / tons of PP time / 1st line center time, 50 points is the bare minimum you should be getting. Radek Bonk, Patrick Kjellberg, Shawn Horcoff, Brandon Dubinksy-types can all speak to this. Doesn't mean you belong on the 1st line.

Fisher's (among others) lack of offensive ability was a big reason why we couldn't do jack offensively in the playoffs. He belongs on the 3rd line, 2nd-line on a good day.
"Fisher scores the bare minimum for someone who plays the #1C position."
THEREFORE:
"Fisher is a third-liner".

I think we're missing a link or two (or three, or four, or six hundred) in the logical chain here. That sounds to me like he's barely acceptable as #1C and would be killer as #2C, not that he's "#2C on a good day". Seems to be a lot of "accentuate the negative" here.

__________________
Remember - when you're a hockey fan, it's not "reckless driving", it's "good forechecking".
"Viqsi, you are our sweet humanist..." --mt-svk on the CBJ boards

Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
Viqsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 10:17 AM
  #87
TMI
Mod Supervisor
 
TMI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 44,276
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Yes, Staal did have a contract.

And Weber will be payed $6 million in the 10th year of his deal from the breakdown I read. It's 1 million when he's 39,40,41.
My mistake. I forgot Staal was working on an extensive and not a new contract. Either way, you're talking about a guy who had a single year left. That is entirely different from a guy with 14 years left (or however many are left at the time of a hypothetical trade situation).

And I was thinking Weber just turned 26 for some reason. He turned 27. I should remember that since he's only a few months younger than me. At any rate, we will be paying him $3m when he turns 37 and not $7m, $6m or $1m. We were both wrong.

I'm not sure why it matters in relation to Poile's handling of this particular contract. We can go back and forth all day long about what could've, should've, would've happened without the least bit of fact to substantiate it, but with a hell of a lot of opinion and individual perspective/bias creating the foundation for debate. If we're going to talk about what we will be paying a crappier Weber at 37 it really doesn't matter what anyone claims happened beforehand. We're talking about this contract. If you want to blame someone for what Weber will be making on a particular year of this contract it should be the owners, IMO.

TMI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 11:08 AM
  #88
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
My mistake. I forgot Staal was working on an extensive and not a new contract. Either way, you're talking about a guy who had a single year left. That is entirely different from a guy with 14 years left (or however many are left at the time of a hypothetical trade situation).
There will not be an apples to apples comp to Weber. All star players that sign long terms deal have NTCs. People say have having no NTC allows the team to dictate where to trade them-- I've shown that's not always the case.

Like I said, it doesn't matter. Weber is signed. Poile does not trade contributing roster players. He's not going anywhere unless it gets nasty.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 11:11 AM
  #89
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
"Fisher scores the bare minimum for someone who plays the #1C position."
THEREFORE:
"Fisher is a third-liner".

I think we're missing a link or two (or three, or four, or six hundred) in the logical chain here. That sounds to me like he's barely acceptable as #1C and would be killer as #2C, not that he's "#2C on a good day". Seems to be a lot of "accentuate the negative" here.
Here's some logic-- Fisher played 2nd and 3rd line center on the Senators (short stint a 1C), and that's where he's spent most of his career.

He had a decent run this year at one point, but it's painfully obvious he doesn't have offensive ability to create offensive on an elite team.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 11:23 AM
  #90
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,023
vCash: 500
What denotes being a number 1 at center, let alone any position? Are you using stats purely? What you see on the ice? A combo of both? I'm not disagreeing that Fisher isn't a number 1 in this league but I'd like to know what you're basing it on so I can wrap my head around what you're saying to see if it's truth, disdain for Fisher or somewhere in between the two. I'll be back later to present what I think constitutes a number 1 at any position and we'll see if we line up on the same page. Have a good rest of the morning and early afternoon.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 11:24 AM
  #91
Viqsi
carrying the flag
 
Viqsi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Scary Internet
Country: United States
Posts: 20,548
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Viqsi
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Here's some logic-- Fisher played 2nd and 3rd line center on the Senators (short stint a 1C), and that's where he's spent most of his career.

He had a decent run this year at one point, but it's painfully obvious he doesn't have offensive ability to create offensive on an elite team.
Sorry, those don't actually fit.

He played 2nd and 3rd line center on a team that in the past has had lots of center depth. This does not justify a conclusion of "he's a 3rd line center, maybe 2nd on a good day". It might justify a conclusion of "he's not a #1C", but that is not what you said. You took it one step further.

Viqsi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 02:09 PM
  #92
ILikeItILoveIt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 200
vCash: 500
Is it just me, or is reading the back-and-forth on huge issues like "is Fisher a 3rd line center, versus 2nd,versus 1st, or whether Weber can still restrict Trade destinations if it ever got to that point, make you depressed that hockey appears to be screwing-the-pooch for the 3rd time in the last 3 CBA cycles? Without real games, this is the only stuff we can talk about. No motivation to hit the Boards anymore. We're bottom-feeding until the season gets back on track. Ugh.

Dulzhok, love your energy but why spend so much of it being negative? Perfectly within your rights to think Poile blows or Weber can hypothetically control his future fate even though contractual he can't, etc but why not find something you think is positive and preach that? There has got to be some good within the Preds or why spend so much time on the Pred Board?

Unlike 2004 when cities like Nashville needed a CBA geared toward a Cap and small market survival, this time it feels more like the traditional food fight between rich and richer. How about meeting in the middle, and get on with the season. Owners would have a better deal than the last CBA, and players would initially be giving something back but look what happened after 2004: A small market team paid it's all-star defenseman over $100mm for 14 years. It'll happen again for the players under the new CBA. A lower percentage of an increasing pie = more money for salaries.

Please open up camps so we can have real stuff to talk about. Please.

ILikeItILoveIt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 09:37 PM
  #93
WartracePred
Registered User
 
WartracePred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,072
vCash: 500
If the lockout lasts a year, can the Preds trade Weber even though he did not play one year under the new contract? Essentially, pay him his bonus and ship him off??

WartracePred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2012, 11:54 PM
  #94
cleangene
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful Bellevue
Posts: 965
vCash: 500
As much "trade Shea" banter that's going on here, I wonder is anyone happy that he is actually coming back???

cleangene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2012, 10:48 AM
  #95
MarkMM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Delta, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WartracePred View Post
If the lockout lasts a year, can the Preds trade Weber even though he did not play one year under the new contract? Essentially, pay him his bonus and ship him off??
Good question, I would think so, but no evidence to back that up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleangene View Post
As much "trade Shea" banter that's going on here, I wonder is anyone happy that he is actually coming back???
Yes, but obviously with a lot less enthusiasm than if he'd signed with Nashville directly. It's still a lot better than draft picks would have been, and moreover, message sent that ownership is ready to man-up.

Another spinoff benefit, if he had signed directly with Nashville, in all certainty there would have been a NTC/NMC included, and so as much as we'd love Weber, the thought would have always been in the backs of our minds "but if this goes sour, our hands are tied", whereas now not only does Nashville get Shea, but could ransom him if needbe to whomever best, so in that way, I kind of like how things ended up.

MarkMM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-08-2012, 11:39 AM
  #96
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeItILoveIt View Post
Is it just me, or is reading the back-and-forth on huge issues like "is Fisher a 3rd line center, versus 2nd,versus 1st, or whether Weber can still restrict Trade destinations if it ever got to that point, make you depressed that hockey appears to be screwing-the-pooch for the 3rd time in the last 3 CBA cycles? Without real games, this is the only stuff we can talk about. No motivation to hit the Boards anymore. We're bottom-feeding until the season gets back on track. Ugh.

Dulzhok, love your energy but why spend so much of it being negative? Perfectly within your rights to think Poile blows or Weber can hypothetically control his future fate even though contractual he can't, etc but why not find something you think is positive and preach that? There has got to be some good within the Preds or why spend so much time on the Pred Board?
I don't; I haven't posted on here in months.

I say Weber could still control his destination if traded, all goes to **** around here.

And no, I don't think Poile can take a team to an elite level. You may want me to keep my opinion to myself, that's fine.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.