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MLD 2012 Montagu Allan QF: Zambia Mania vs. Montreal Orfuns

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Old
09-07-2012, 05:38 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Mickoski and Sandford played at the same time, isn't it pretty important that Sandford has a 4-1 edge in earned All Star games? Shows who people who watched them valued more. I had Mickoski last draft, and the objective evidence in favor of Sandford is quite a bit stronger.
Honestly, I'm really trying not to discount those all-star games. But, where is the information that backs up how he was regarded in the league? there's not much substantial in his bio (though thankfully it is an improvement on EB's last one)

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09-07-2012, 05:39 PM
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oh, look out...

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09-07-2012, 06:12 PM
  #53
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ASGs

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If Mickoski and Sandford played at the same time, isn't it pretty important that Sandford has a 4-1 edge in earned All Star games? Shows who people who watched them valued more. I had Mickoski last draft, and the objective evidence in favor of Sandford is quite a bit stronger.

That said, we are missing what's most important. Compared to both of them, Shane Corson is a no talent ass clown
Take a look at the ASG rosters from the O6 era:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/alls...55_roster.html

1955 had Frank Martin named to the AST roster and where does he rank? Then take a look at the skaters left out. Repeat for other years. All remaining teams had to be represented against the SC champions.

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09-07-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Take a look at the ASG rosters from the O6 era:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/alls...55_roster.html

1955 had Frank Martin named to the AST roster and where does he rank? Then take a look at the skaters left out. Repeat for other years. All remaining teams had to be represented against the SC champions.
Yes, relative scrubs like Frank Martin can find themselves in a single All star Game. A far cry from someone like Sandford who played in 5 straight All Star Games, 4 of them on the team opposing the Cup winners, correct?

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09-07-2012, 06:35 PM
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Exhibition Game

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Yes, relative scrubs like Frank Martin can find themselves in a single All star Game. A far cry from someone like Sandford who played in 5 straight All Star Games, 4 of them on the team opposing the Cup winners, correct?
Still talking about a glorified, well promoted exhibition game. No hue and cry about players who were left off. 1955 defensemen would include Gadsby, Johnson, Horton, Quackenbush.

No one bothers with the individual player points scored during the NHL ASG. Even the adjusted stat guys do not bother adjusting.

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09-07-2012, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Still talking about a glorified, well promoted exhibition game. No hue and cry about players who were left off. 1955 defensemen would include Gadsby, Johnson, Horton, Quackenbush.

No one bothers with the individual player points scored during the NHL ASG. Even the adjusted stat guys do not bother adjusting.
Of course not. But it is a reasonable indicator that a player was considered good.

How good is up for debate though.

Assuming a couple of the best LWs were on the cup winner and a couple better players were on teams that already had ample representation, making the ASG may not say much more than you were about the 9th-best LW in the league. Then add in that it was not a very good time for LWs...

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09-07-2012, 09:19 PM
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Conversely

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Of course not. But it is a reasonable indicator that a player was considered good.

How good is up for debate though.

Assuming a couple of the best LWs were on the cup winner and a couple better players were on teams that already had ample representation, making the ASG may not say much more than you were about the 9th-best LW in the league. Then add in that it was not a very good time for LWs...
Conversely look at the depth at LW on the 1955-56 Chicago Black Hawks the 6th place team and the gap between the 6th and 18th LW was not that great.

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09-07-2012, 09:55 PM
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Well, I think I'll actually bring the discussion back on point here...


The biggest advatage in this series is Zambia's clear edge in goaltending. Paddy Moran is the best goalie in this MLD, and I'm very glad that he actually did get the respect he deserved in the all-star voting. Jonathan Quick, on the other hand, is one of the weaker ones... if not the weakest.


Another significant advantage is Zambia's very strong blueline going against Montreal's rather average/mediocre one.


One final advantage that's pretty cut and dry is Zambia's coaching. Bun Cook is one of the best coaches here, and he's got loads of championship experience.


Forwards are a bit tricky, especially since I don't have opposing bios to work with, so I'll do up a comparison later.

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09-08-2012, 12:44 AM
  #59
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Goaltending - Paddy Moran

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Well, I think I'll actually bring the discussion back on point here...


The biggest advatage in this series is Zambia's clear edge in goaltending. Paddy Moran is the best goalie in this MLD, and I'm very glad that he actually did get the respect he deserved in the all-star voting. Jonathan Quick, on the other hand, is one of the weaker ones... if not the weakest.
There is hyperbole, puffery, and pure nonsense in the claims about Paddy Moran. A pure MLD "Hat Trick"

Paddy Moran - the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_M...8ice_hockey%29

Paddy Moran - the stats:

Regular season

Season Team League GP W L T SO GAA
190102 Quebec Athletics CAHL 8 4 4 0 0 4.25
190203 Quebec Athletics CAHL 7 3 4 0 0 6.57
190304 Quebec Athletics CAHL 6 5 1 0 0 6.17
190405 Quebec Athletics CAHL 9 7 2 0 0 5.00
190506 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 10 3 7 0 0 6.79
190607 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 6 0 6 0 0 9.61
190708 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 10 5 5 0 0 7.38
190809 Quebec Bulldogs ECHA 12 3 9 0 0 8.83
1910 Haileybury Comets NHA 11 3 8 0 0 7.21
191011 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 16 4 12 0 0 5.91
191112 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 18 10 8 0 0 4.26
191213 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 16 4 0 1 3.70
191314 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 12 8 0 1 3.58
191415 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 11 9 0 0 3.91
191516 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 22 10 10 0 0 3.54
191617 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 7 1 5 0 0 6.84
Playoffs

Season Team League GP W L SO GAA
191112 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 2 2 0 1 1.50
191213 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 2 2 0 0 2.50

Has anyone seen a worse pro or semi-pro goalie? Two Stanley Cup winning teams without having to face a western challenge. 17 seasons. Only 4 seasons with a GAA < 4.00, 2 seasons < 5.00, 11 seasons in between 5.00 and 10.00 GAA. Obviously a sub .500 W/L record.

Paddy Moran - technique:
Moran was a stand-up style goaltender.[1] At 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m) and 180 lb (82 kg/12 st 12 lb), he was considered a big goaltender for his era.[5] In Moran's era, goaltenders were not allowed to drop down to the ice to make saves, so his style suited him well.[5] Moran was especially noted for his aggressive defense of the area in front of his net. He used his stick to slash opposing players within reach. Moran often chewed tobacco while on the ice, and another favorite tactic of his was to expectorate at opposing players.[6] Moran's stick work was described as attempts to "slash [other players'] heads off with lightning strokes of his blade".[7] Moran often wore oversized sweaters, claiming that they kept him warm in the cold arenas; however, he kept it unbuttoned, and often used to catch shots.

Moran's Stanley Cup record is misleading. The low GAA was against two Maritime challengers who were extremely weak competition. In his last season he was replaced by Sam Hebert with a dramatic shift in team fortunes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916%E2...ng_goaltenders

During his career, Paddy Moran played < 200 games of pro or semi-pro hockey. Adjusting for season length does not work since the longer they play the worse bad goalies become. Paddy Moran was carried by teams that could score - Joe Malone and Jack McDonald. For his team to win they had to outscore the opposition.
Zambia Mania does not have scorers at forward or on defence.

Paddy Moran's hockey legacy is that of an uncouth, vulgar stick man with little talent to support his game.

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09-08-2012, 01:15 AM
  #60
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Goaltending Jonathan Quick/Orfuns

Jonathan Quick is one of the younger goaltenders in the MLD and one of the best.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...quickjo01.html

Already a SC winner, he is the only MLD goalie to win a Conn Smythe.

This was accomplished at an age when his opposition in the MLD,Paddy Moran, was struggling to keep his GAA under 10.00. Also in a short career, Jonathan Quick has played more games than Paddy Moran did in a 17 season career. Adjust for season length all you want but you cannot escape the following realities. Quick has internal competition - Jonathan Bernier and a willing minor league system and free agency system of goalies ready and willing to step-up should he falter.

Quick does not have to be carried by a high powered offence. .916 SV% during the regular season and a .926 SV% during the playoffs, improving to a .946 SV% during the Kings 2012 SC run. More telling in the Moran Quick comparison is that Moran never had a seasonal GAA under 3.00 while Jonathan Quick has never had a seasonal GAA over 3.00 if he played 10 or more games.

The Orfuns have the best goalie by far in this QF.

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09-08-2012, 04:15 AM
  #61
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Here's some interesting information about Paddy Moran: the HHOF committee inducted him before any of his peers!

These are the first 10 goalies inducted into the HHOF:

1945: Charles Robert "Chuck" Gardiner
1945: Georges Vezina
1958: Alex Connell
1958: Frederick Hugh Lehman
1958: Patrick Joseph "Paddy" Moran
1959: Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth
1961: Percy LeSueur
1962: William Milton "Riley" Hern
1962: John Bower "Bouse" Hutton


I bolded the goalies who had the majority of their primes coming before World War I.

Moran was one of the first 5 goalies inducted into the Hall. His contemporary Leseuer had to wait a few years, and contemporaries Hern and Hutton had to wait for the mass induction of 1962, when 27 players got in at once.


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Old
09-08-2012, 06:09 AM
  #62
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Year of HHOF Induction

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's some interesting information about Paddy Moran: the HHOF committee inducted him before any of his peers!

These are the first 10 goalies inducted into the HHOF:

1945: Charles Robert "Chuck" Gardiner
1945: Georges Vezina
1958: Alex Connell
1958: Frederick Hugh Lehman
1958: Patrick Joseph "Paddy" Moran
1959: Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth
1961: Percy LeSueur
1962: William Milton "Riley" Hern
1962: John Bower "Bouse" Hutton


I bolded the goalies who had the majority of their primes coming before World War I.

Moran was one of the first 5 goalies inducted into the Hall. His contemporary Leseuer had to wait a few years, and contemporaries Hern and Hutton had to wait for the mass induction of 1962, when 27 players got in at once.
Hobey Baker was inducted in 1945. The following pre WWI skaters were inducted in later years:

Frank Nighbor, Cyclone Taylor, Mike Grant, Newsy Lalonde, Joe Malone, Moose Johnson,Sprague Cleghorn, George McNamara. Just a short list.

Does this imply that Hobey Baker was better than any of the players listed above? Far from.

The actual game achievements define the players worth. Not what they did in exhibition games, or the chronological order of election to the HHOF.

Also keep in mind that the Trail of the Stanley Cup was published in the mid 1960's, so access to statistics and game or season reports was not as easy as it is today.

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09-08-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Hobey Baker was inducted in 1945. The following pre WWI skaters were inducted in later years:

Frank Nighbor, Cyclone Taylor, Mike Grant, Newsy Lalonde, Joe Malone, Moose Johnson,Sprague Cleghorn, George McNamara. Just a short list.

Does this imply that Hobey Baker was better than any of the players listed above? Far from.

The actual game achievements define the players worth. Not what they did in exhibition games, or the chronological order of election to the HHOF.

Also keep in mind that the Trail of the Stanley Cup was published in the mid 1960's, so access to statistics and game or season reports was not as easy as it is today.
LeSeuer, Moran, Hutton, and Hern spent a significant number of years in the same leagues at the same times. Hobey Baker didn't play in the same league as any of the guys you mentioned; moreover, his career barely overlapped with the primes of most of them! Moreover, every member of the class of 1945 was deceased at the time; Nighbor and Taylor were inducted in 1947 - the first time then-living player's were inducted.

Most of the case that Moran was arguably the best goalie of his era is made in his profile. His HHOF early induction is just a small piece of the puzzle. But I think a proper ranking of pre-PCHA goalies would have Moran and LeSeuer at the top in either order

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09-08-2012, 07:02 AM
  #64
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Montreal Orfuns - Offence

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Forwards are a bit tricky, especially since I don't have opposing bios to work with, so I'll do up a comparison later.
Links to complete stats for all the Orfuns player stats were clearly posted in the appropriate thread. Summary of the offensive skills of the forwards and defensemen follows. Regular season, no overlap or duplication, actual numbers.

Goal scoring abilities. All twelve forwards have at least two twenty goal seasons regardless of era. As a group, the team features 55, 20 + goal seasons.Ten of the twelve forwards have at least 1, 30+ goal seasons, total of 20 such seasons. Three of the forwards have 40+ seasons, total of four such seasons. Danny Grant has a fifty goal season.

No other team features such scoring depth or balance amongst its forwards.

Offensive abilities of the defensemen. Five of the defensemen have 40+ point seasons to their credit with a peak of 79 from Erik Karlsson. Total of 14, such seasons. Also four of the defensemen have 10+ goal seasons, while one, Sylvain Cote has a 21 goal season.

The transition, support games and the PP will be strong points.

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09-08-2012, 07:36 AM
  #65
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False

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
LeSeuer, Moran, Hutton, and Hern spent a significant number of years in the same leagues at the same times. Hobey Baker didn't play in the same league as any of the guys you mentioned; moreover, his career barely overlapped with the primes of most of them! Moreover, every member of the class of 1945 was deceased at the time; Nighbor and Taylor were inducted in 1947 - the first time then-living player's were inducted.

Most of the case that Moran was arguably the best goalie of his era is made in his profile. His HHOF early induction is just a small piece of the puzzle. But I think a proper ranking of pre-PCHA goalies would have Moran and LeSeuer at the top in either order
Demonstratably false.

Dan Bain died in 1962. Art Ross died in 1964 - GM of the Bruins until 1954.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...io&list=ByYear

I realize the fantasy element in all of this but ......

Paddy Moran in the NHA, never had the best GAA per season. His pre NHA numbers were terrible as posted. Do not see why the PCHA becomes a barometer since Moran never played in or against the league in any meaningful fashion.

Riley Hern - stats:
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...tsawards&list=

much better GAA pre NHA even when playing for very bad teams. More shutouts certain seasons than Moran had in his career.

Bouse Hutton - stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouse_H...eer_statistics

short career but a much better GAA average with very solid playoffs.

Percy LeSueur - stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_LeSueur

between Hern/Hutton and Moran in terms of performance, never as weak as Moran, one of the few to impress against higher competition.

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09-08-2012, 10:12 AM
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Dan Bain and Art Ross were not inducted in 1945, despite what the HHOF website says. This is fairly well known by now - it's on Iain Fyffe's website, and during the top 60 defenseman project, tarheel found a link to an original article from 1945 - he used it to show that Harvey Pulford barely made the cut in 1945, but it also confirmed that only then-deceased players made it.

Edit, here it is on Iain's site. Can't read google archives on my phone, but it shouldn't be too hard to find there:
http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...thers.html?m=1

Dan Bain, Russell Bowie, and Art Ross are listed as being inducted in 1945, but they were not

As for Moran, I'd like to think we are past judging ancient goalies based entirely on their raw GAA, when there is now much more information available. It's widely known that Moran played for a run and gun team. Patrick Roy was rarely close to leading the NHL in GAA when Colorado played run and gun hockey, for example. Anyway, Moran did lead the NHA in GAA in 1913 and was second in GAA a few times.


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09-08-2012, 12:55 PM
  #67
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Cahl/ecaha

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Dan Bain and Art Ross were not inducted in 1945, despite what the HHOF website says. This is fairly well known by now - it's on Iain Fyffe's website, and during the top 60 defenseman project, tarheel found a link to an original article from 1945 - he used it to show that Harvey Pulford barely made the cut in 1945, but it also confirmed that only then-deceased players made it.

Edit, here it is on Iain's site. Can't read google archives on my phone, but it shouldn't be too hard to find there:
http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...thers.html?m=1

Dan Bain, Russell Bowie, and Art Ross are listed as being inducted in 1945, but they were not

As for Moran, I'd like to think we are past judging ancient goalies based entirely on their raw GAA, when there is now much more information available. It's widely known that Moran played for a run and gun team. Patrick Roy was rarely close to leading the NHL in GAA when Colorado played run and gun hockey, for example. Anyway, Moran did lead the NHA in GAA in 1913 and was second in GAA a few times.
HHOF is a consensus listing of the inaugural class for the original Kingston and Toronto venues explained by Phil Pritchard :

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/ar.../t-780160.html

see the last post. Basic point remains that players are evaluated by what they did when alive. Introducing the issue that a inducted player was alive or deceased when inducted into a HOF has absolutely no bearing on what he did when he was actually playing.

Run and gun team in an era when forward passing was not allowed. Oxymoron that is impossible. Players without the puck had to hang back since there was no benefit to going ahead of the puck carrier. Going ahead would allow a double team scenario. Defence was played by default due to the rules.

1902 CAHL season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1902_CAHL_season

note that Quebec was particularly weak at home allowing high goals against. Compare to Bill Nicholson. Such a gap is not team but goalie related.

1903 CAHL season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903_CAHL_season

again very weak at home. Compare to the strong teams and you see a goalie gap.

1904 CAHL season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904_CAHL_season

controversial season, Still Quebec goaltending was not a strength. Hard to see Moran stepping up in the SC challenge like Hutton did.

1905 CAHL season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_CAHL_season

goaltending was the difference in the two Quebec loses to the Victorias. Yet Nathan Frye remains an unknown goaltender.

1906 ECAHA season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_ECAHA_season

Moran was the only goalie of note yet no impact. Team was back to being weak at home.

1907 ECAHA season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907_ECAHA_season

League goaltending improved but Moran did not. Team still weak at home.

1908 ECAHA season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1907%E2...8_ECAHA_season

Team improved to .500 but goaltending and defence were weak.

1909 ECAHA season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1909_ECHA_season

Back to weak. Weakest goaltending and defence in the league.

1910 NHA season:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910_NHA_season

Played for Haileybury, weak team and defense, poor home performance.. Interesting contrast with Billy Nicholson who played one game for Haileybury.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 09-08-2012 at 01:34 PM. Reason: early click
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09-08-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quebec was terrible during the first half of Moran's career - that's well established. If you want an "unbiased" profile of Moran, you can check these out:

http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...famer.html?m=1
http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com...oalie.html?m=1

It's much more thorough than a Wikipedia link to Moran's rookie season (1902).

Edit: from the first link:

Quote:
Moran played for some bad teams, especially early in his career. And even when he had a good team in front of him, it tended to be a team focused on defence rather than offence, so he was often the last line of defence when his skaters had abandoned him in an effort to fill the other net. It is easy to overstate this effect, though. For his Quebec career his team had a tendency towards offence, but not a huge one. Here are Quebec's Marginal Goals score (MG), Marginal Goals Saved (MGS) and the percentage that MG is of the total (MG%):
...
However, one could certainly argue that if Moran was a lesser netminder, this percentage would be even higher than it is. Perhaps they only saved as many goals as they did because of their spectacular goalie.

So to a certain extent, it appears that the responsibility for Quebec goal prevention was left to Moran, while his mates went forward in search of goals. On top of that was Moran's unique style, which we'll discuss in the next post when we give Moran a proper profile. We've already seen that Moran likely deserves his spot in the Hall of Fame, which means the Point Allocation system can reasonably be bent to agree with the his reputation. As such we have no reason to refute the opinion that he was a great goalie. Next time, we'll see just how good the system thinks he is.
Or more succinctly, Quebec was terrible for the first half of Moran's career. But considering his starting job was never threatened, and he ended up keeping it for 15 straight seasons, he was clearly seen as part of the solution, not problem. When they became a contender (and won two Cups) in the second half, they were an offense-first team built around one-way scoring stars like Joe Malone, with Moran as the last line of defense.


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09-08-2012, 03:17 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jonathan Quick is one of the younger goaltenders in the MLD and one of the best.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...quickjo01.html

Already a SC winner, he is the only MLD goalie to win a Conn Smythe.

This was accomplished at an age when his opposition in the MLD,Paddy Moran, was struggling to keep his GAA under 10.00. Also in a short career, Jonathan Quick has played more games than Paddy Moran did in a 17 season career. Adjust for season length all you want but you cannot escape the following realities. Quick has internal competition - Jonathan Bernier and a willing minor league system and free agency system of goalies ready and willing to step-up should he falter.

Quick does not have to be carried by a high powered offence. .916 SV% during the regular season and a .926 SV% during the playoffs, improving to a .946 SV% during the Kings 2012 SC run. More telling in the Moran Quick comparison is that Moran never had a seasonal GAA under 3.00 while Jonathan Quick has never had a seasonal GAA over 3.00 if he played 10 or more games.

The Orfuns have the best goalie by far in this QF.
Jonathan Quick might be young, but that is completely meaningless for this draft. There is no future expectations here. All that matters is what each player accomplished. Being young only means that Quick hasn't accomlished very much in a very short career. For the purposes of this draft, we may as well assume Quick died in a car crash right after he won the cup.

Jonathan Quick has 1 amazing season and 3 solid (but not special) seasons. Compare that to Moran's 16 year career as a starting goalie, during which time he was often considered one of the elite goalies, and you've got nothing less than a canyon between the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Links to complete stats for all the Orfuns player stats were clearly posted in the appropriate thread. Summary of the offensive skills of the forwards and defensemen follows. Regular season, no overlap or duplication, actual numbers.

Goal scoring abilities. All twelve forwards have at least two twenty goal seasons regardless of era. As a group, the team features 55, 20 + goal seasons.Ten of the twelve forwards have at least 1, 30+ goal seasons, total of 20 such seasons. Three of the forwards have 40+ seasons, total of four such seasons. Danny Grant has a fifty goal season.

No other team features such scoring depth or balance amongst its forwards.

Offensive abilities of the defensemen. Five of the defensemen have 40+ point seasons to their credit with a peak of 79 from Erik Karlsson. Total of 14, such seasons. Also four of the defensemen have 10+ goal seasons, while one, Sylvain Cote has a 21 goal season.

The transition, support games and the PP will be strong points.
Stop using raw point totals. They are meaningless.

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09-08-2012, 04:49 PM
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Accomplishments

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Jonathan Quick might be young, but that is completely meaningless for this draft. There is no future expectations here. All that matters is what each player accomplished. Being young only means that Quick hasn't accomlished very much in a very short career. For the purposes of this draft, we may as well assume Quick died in a car crash right after he won the cup.

Jonathan Quick has 1 amazing season and 3 solid (but not special) seasons. Compare that to Moran's 16 year career as a starting goalie, during which time he was often considered one of the elite goalies, and you've got nothing less than a canyon between the two.



Stop using raw point totals. They are meaningless.
Two bolded statements contradict each other.

Two basic points. Regardless of the era it only takes a a handful of games to determine if a goalie or player can actually play. In terms of meaningful, recognized hockey games Quick has an edge already over Moran. So the difference in seasons only shows that Paddy Moran accomplished very little when compared to Jonathan Quick.

The only season where he could be considered the best goalie is the 1912-13 season He led the NHA in GAA while Bert Lindsay led the PCHA with a marginally better GAA but the PCHA would cancel meaningless end of season games so Lindsay had the edge of not having to play. So maybe one Vezina equivalent. The results of the two Quebec SC wins show that Moran was not a factor given Malone's scoring - 9 goal game in 1913, Jack McDonald, 4 and 5 goal games in 1912. Considered amongst the elite is vague especially given the history of Paddy Moran who at various times of his career was outplayed by no name goalies.

As for your car crash scenario, well use it with Quick's teammates as well - Doughty and Kopitar, drafted by Regina.Or Dustin Brown who was also drafted. These are considered great picks. My team is the only one being targeted this way. You are simply out of arguments against my players. So you use cheap meaningless knee jerk positions. Base the points on accomplishments if you can.

Raw numbers are the best approach when comparing amongst NHA, PCHA, pre 1910, full NHL, WHA rosters. That you cannot handle the raw facts of facing a powerful offensive roster with no weak forwards is your problem.

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09-08-2012, 05:17 PM
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Moran was selected ECHA All Star in 1905, the first ever recorded All Star Team. The ECHA was the predecessor to the NHA. To me, that is the equivalent of a Vezina (though against 1905 competition). If we have access to ECHA All Stars outside of 1905, I don't know where they are - it's quite possible Moran would have more, though he'd be competing with Riley Hern and Percy LeSeuer.

In 1911-12, the Calgary Herald called Moran "perhaps the best bet" among goalies.

Then in 1934, we have the Montreal Gazette calling Moran "at his peak, perhaps the greatest goaler of his time."

He was clearly an elite goalie outside of just 1912-13 (which probably was his best season though).

This is all contained in the excellent profile Dreakmur made


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-08-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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09-08-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Two bolded statements contradict each other.
They definately do not contradict each other.

One means that you can't assume things that didn't happen. The other means that you have to look at the things that did happen in proper context.

Quote:
Two basic points. Regardless of the era it only takes a a handful of games to determine if a goalie or player can actually play. In terms of meaningful, recognized hockey games Quick has an edge already over Moran. So the difference in seasons only shows that Paddy Moran accomplished very little when compared to Jonathan Quick.
As I said above, you need to look at each era in proper context. The fact that Moran played fewer games per season doesn't impact his ability as a player.

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The only season where he could be considered the best goalie is the 1912-13 season He led the NHA in GAA while Bert Lindsay led the PCHA with a marginally better GAA but the PCHA would cancel meaningless end of season games so Lindsay had the edge of not having to play. So maybe one Vezina equivalent. The results of the two Quebec SC wins show that Moran was not a factor given Malone's scoring - 9 goal game in 1913, Jack McDonald, 4 and 5 goal games in 1912. Considered amongst the elite is vague especially given the history of Paddy Moran who at various times of his career was outplayed by no name goalies.
GAA is a team stat that gets erroneously applied to goalies. You know this as well as anybody.

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As for your car crash scenario, well use it with Quick's teammates as well - Doughty and Kopitar, drafted by Regina.Or Dustin Brown who was also drafted. These are considered great picks. My team is the only one being targeted this way. You are simply out of arguments against my players. So you use cheap meaningless knee jerk positions. Base the points on accomplishments if you can.
Drew Doughty and Anze Kopitar are getting treated the same way. The only reason they aren't getting slammed is bacause their GMs knows that they have short careers, and he knows they aren't that good. If he claimed either one was an elite player in the draft, I assure you he would be getting slammed just as much as you are now.

The same will be applied to Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang. Don't worry, though, our Mike Green and Tomas Vanek both get the same treatment.

I will base all my points on accomplishments, but only because they are the only that matter...

Quote:
Raw numbers are the best approach when comparing amongst NHA, PCHA, pre 1910, full NHL, WHA rosters. That you cannot handle the raw facts of facing a powerful offensive roster with no weak forwards is your problem.
When comparing players who played in the same league at the same time, raw numbers are fine. Anything else and they are worthless.

I'll use Russ Courtnall's 1986 season as an example. He scored 22 goals, 38 assists, and 60 points. Sounds great, right? What if you knew he placed 93rd in the league in points, 95th in goals, and 82nd in assists?

Compare that to Paul Haynes' 1933 season, where he scored 16 goals, 25 assists, and 41 points. Less impressive, right? He placed 12th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 4th in points. Is it still less impressive?


Last edited by Dreakmur: 09-08-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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09-08-2012, 05:56 PM
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Seriously.............

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Moran was selected ECHA All Star in 1905, the first ever recorded All Star Team. The ECHA was the predecessor to the NHA. To me, that is the equivalent of a Vezina (though against 1905 competition). If we have access to ECHA All Stars outside of 1905, I don't know where they are - it's quite possible Moran would have more, though he'd be competing with Riley Hern and Percy LeSeuer.

In 1911-12, the Calgary Herald called Moran "perhaps the best bet" among goalies.

Then in 1934, we have the Montreal Gazette calling Moran "at his peak, perhaps the greatest goaler of his time."

He was clearly an elite goalie outside of just 1912-13 (which probably was his best season though).

This is all contained in the excellent profile Dreakmur made
ECHA started in 1905-06 and Quebec was a weak team. At no time would Moran's numbers in 1905 or 06 justify a Vezina.

Calgary, guess they had a scribe follow Moran. Nothing close to home?

Moran was at best adequate. Leave it at that. No need to disrespect the elite Vezina, Benedict, Hern, Hutton,Lesueur, etc

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09-08-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
ECHA started in 1905-06 and Quebec was a weak team. At no time would Moran's numbers in 1905 or 06 justify a Vezina.
What exactly are those numbers?

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Moran was at best adequate. Leave it at that. No need to disrespect the elite Vezina, Benedict, Hern, Hutton,Lesueur, etc
Yeah, all the writers, players, coaches, and managers of the day seem to think he was one of the best.... but, they were too stupid to look at a team stat like GAA and apply it only to a goalie.

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09-08-2012, 06:28 PM
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It's possible the 1905 All Star Team was done up before the start of the first ECHA season, based on what the players did in the CAHL the previous year(s), a sort of preview of the "new" league. Or the original 1934 source that reported on the team called the CAHL the ECHA, since they were basically the same league under a different name and organization anyway. Regardless, it's out there, and Moran was the chosen goalie

Unfortunately, I don't think the Toronto News is on google archives, so we just have the Montreal Gazette's secondhand reporting in 1934.

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