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MLD 2012 Montagu Allan QF: Zambia Mania vs. Montreal Orfuns

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Old
09-08-2012, 06:30 PM
  #76
Canadiens1958
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Come On.......

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
They definately do not contradict each other.

One means that you can't assume things that didn't happen. The other means that you have to look at the things that did happen in proper context.



As I said above, you need to look at each era in proper context. The fact that Moran played fewer games per season doesn't impact his ability as a player.



GAA is a team stat that gets erroneously applied to goalies. You know this as well as anybody.



Drew Doughty and Anze Kopitar are getting treated the same way. The only reason they aren't getting slammed is bacause their GMs knows that they have short careers, and he knows they aren't that good. If he claimed either one was an elite player in the draft, I assure you he would be getting slammed just as much as you are now.

The same will be applied to Erik Karlsson and Kris Letang. Don't worry, though, our Mike Green and Tomas Vanek both get the same treatment.

I will base all my points on accomplishments, but only because they are the only that matter...



When comparing players who played in the same league at the same time, raw numbers are fine. Anything else and they are worthless.

I'll use Russ Courtnall's 1986 season as an example. He scored 22 goals, 38 assists, and 60 points. Sounds great, right? What if you knew he placed 93rd in the league in points, 95th in goals, and 82nd in assists?

Compare that to Paul Haynes' 1933 season, where he scored 16 goals, 25 assists, and 41 points. Less impressive, right? He placed 12th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 4th in points. Is it still less impressive?
Come on. That is so lame. At no point have I inferred or projected anything that did not happen. You and TDMM do it all the time.

Fewer games in a season are significant as they advantage a weak player. Stamina and the ability to adapt over a season facing an opponent more that twice are important considerations when evaluating players. Moran is getting a free pass in this regard.

GAA as a team stat gets applied to all goalies. It is not selective. While your arguments for Mpran have repeated selective elements that have been enumerated.

Vanek and Green. Point is that I have not attacked them on this level because I am able to recognize that good is good when it comes to talent. Good is not a synonym for accomplishments. Good is a stand alone characteristic in hockey. Accomplishments are a function of longevity. Do not confuse the two.

Raw numbers. Wrap you reasoning around a basic fact. Without raw numbers you do not have adjusted numbers. As such raw numbers are never worthless. That you cannot or refuse to recognize them as a base for comparisons is unfortunate.

Your Courtnall to Haynes analogy is the classic red herring. Irrelevent to the discussion.Step up and show using any approach - raw goals or adjusted goals that your forwards can actually score goals at various benchmark levels. But it has to be goals not %s or some other method that masks talent or lack of talent.

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09-08-2012, 06:37 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958
Come on. That is so lame. At no point have I inferred or projected anything that did not happen. You and TDMM do it all the time.
Please provide examples of this.

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09-08-2012, 06:42 PM
  #78
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Time Wasting

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What exactly are those numbers?



Yeah, all the writers, players, coaches, and managers of the day seem to think he was one of the best.... but, they were too stupid to look at a team stat like GAA and apply it only to a goalie.
You are simply time wasting now. The links were clearly posted as were the bios about my forwards.Simple left click away. Not indulging you in anymore grade school debating sophistry.

So in a few minutes Moran drops in stature from the best to one of the best, a generic term applied to all opponents by participants in all eras. My point is that he was simply adequate. Adequate + longevity means that an honour or two will drift your way.See Gump Worsely, Chris Osgood. Blind squirrels will find a nut.

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09-08-2012, 07:07 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You are simply time wasting now. The links were clearly posted as were the bios about my forwards.Simple left click away. Not indulging you in anymore grade school debating sophistry.
I've seen your roster posted 3 times, and none of them have links to anything.

Quote:
So in a few minutes Moran drops in stature from the best to one of the best, a generic term applied to all opponents by participants in all eras. My point is that he was simply adequate. Adequate + longevity means that an honour or two will drift your way.See Gump Worsely, Chris Osgood. Blind squirrels will find a nut.
Yeah, an honour or two will drift your way... like being the first HHOF inductee of your era.... like being a mutli-time champion.... like being named to the first recorded all-star team.... like being called the best goaltended of your era by multiple contem contemporary players, coaches, and journalists....

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09-08-2012, 07:10 PM
  #80
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Let's See

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Please provide examples of this.
Vezina for Moran in 1905 or 1906, based on an AST of uncertain provenance where the season of reference is up in the air. Then we have the attempt to use a players selection for exhibition games as an indicator of superior talent. Then the attempt at a link between HHOF worthiness and whether the candidate is alive or deceased.

Then we have the car crash analogy. The claim that info was not provide re bios or Moran when in fact is was just a left click away. The claim about raw stats being worthless when in fact they are necessary to generate any and all adjusted numbers.

Cannot provide details about something I never did. Logical impossibility.

Four pages into the thread and both of you are dancing around my team. No analysis have been provided,. Just proclamations from the mountain and proof of ageism from both of you.

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09-08-2012, 07:14 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Come on. That is so lame. At no point have I inferred or projected anything that did not happen. You and TDMM do it all the time.
Where have either one of us done that?

Quote:
Fewer games in a season are significant as they advantage a weak player. Stamina and the ability to adapt over a season facing an opponent more that twice are important considerations when evaluating players. Moran is getting a free pass in this regard.
Which players of Moran's era are the guys who would suffer from playing mroe games?

Quote:
GAA as a team stat gets applied to all goalies. It is not selective. While your arguments for Mpran have repeated selective elements that have been enumerated.
As I said, it gets erroneously applied to all goalie.

Goalies who have the good fortune to play on good defensive teams have better GAAs. Jonathan Quick is a good example.

Goalies who have the bad fortunre t play on poor defensive teams have worse GAAs. Paddy Moran is a good example.

Despite his GAA, Paddy Moran was widely considered an elite goalie in his era.

Quote:
Vanek and Green. Point is that I have not attacked them on this level because I am able to recognize that good is good when it comes to talent. Good is not a synonym for accomplishments. Good is a stand alone characteristic in hockey. Accomplishments are a function of longevity. Do not confuse the two.
What players actually accomplish during their careers is not relevant in evaluating them in an all-time context? That's rediculous...

In the MLD, how good you are is an exact synonym for his accomplishments. How else do you think we should evaluate players?

Quote:
Raw numbers. Wrap you reasoning around a basic fact. Without raw numbers you do not have adjusted numbers. As such raw numbers are never worthless. That you cannot or refuse to recognize them as a base for comparisons is unfortunate.
Raw numbers are what they are. They give you the facts. What they don't give you is the meaning of those facts.

As I have said many times before, context matters. Raw point totals ignore that important context.

Quote:
Your Courtnall to Haynes analogy is the classic red herring. Irrelevent to the discussion.Step up and show using any approach - raw goals or adjusted goals that your forwards can actually score goals at various benchmark levels. But it has to be goals not %s or some other method that masks talent or lack of talent.
What is misleading about my Courtnall vs Haynes analogy? It shows exactly why raw numbers are meaingless. One guy scored 22 goals in a high-scoring era, which barely put him among the top-100 scorers. The other guy scores 16 in a low-scoring era, which put him in the top dozen. There's nothing misleading about it.

Furthermore, how it is irrelevant to a discussion about the context of raw offensive numbers?

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09-08-2012, 07:31 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Vezina for Moran in 1905 or 1906, based on an AST of uncertain provenance where the season of reference is up in the air. Then we have the attempt to use a players selection for exhibition games as an indicator of superior talent. Then the attempt at a link between HHOF worthiness and whether the candidate is alive or deceased.
He said that Moran being voted the best goalie was the equiveant to a vezina. How is that a projection?

Of course, those "exhbition games" are specfically designed to showcase the best talent in the league. As a result, the lague makes an attampt to actually selectthe best talent.

Then a link that about the HHOF was only posted to prove you were wrong about a few HHOF inductees. It had nothing todo with selling any player.

None of the above has anything to do with projecting or making assumptions of future success.

Quote:
Then we have the car crash analogy. The claim that info was not provide re bios or Moran when in fact is was just a left click away. The claim about raw stats being worthless when in fact they are necessary to generate any and all adjusted numbers.
What's wrong with the car crash analogy? For the purposes of this MLD, Jonathan Quick's career is over right now. He may as well be dead.

You posted 3 rosters that I have seen, and none of them have links to anything. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...13&postcount=8, http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...33&postcount=2, http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...53&postcount=4)


Raw stats are useless until they are adjusted....

Quote:
Four pages into the thread and both of you are dancing around my team. No analysis have been provided.
Why don't you start us off with some analysis?

Quote:
Just proclamations from the mountain and proof of ageism from both of you.
You can call it ageism if you want, but young players have incomplete careers.

Jonathan Quick only has 4 complete seasons, so how can that really comare to somebody who has 10, 15, or even 20?

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09-08-2012, 07:50 PM
  #83
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Yawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I've seen your roster posted 3 times, and none of them have links to anything.



Yeah, an honour or two will drift your way... like being the first HHOF inductee of your era.... like being a mutli-time champion.... like being named to the first recorded all-star team.... like being called the best goaltended of your era by multiple contem contemporary players, coaches, and journalists....
Same thread where I found your bios. Mine start on page 5:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1230111&page=5

and have links to appropriate statistical sites.

Ironically TDMM's Zabrodsky bio follows one of mine so the info was known to you. Also my bios were grouped for easier reading and reference.

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09-08-2012, 07:54 PM
  #84
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Yeah, I really can't see how Paddy Moran is even possibly being compared to Jonathan Quick. One is a HHOF goalie, the other has had one season of true relevance. This isn't even comparable at the moment. And don't even say that Quick is clutch, because Moran was another guy who was known as a big game goalie.

I honestly don't even see how this is happening right now.

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09-08-2012, 07:58 PM
  #85
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Heh, the Shane Corson bio prominently notes that he was selected to three All Star Games.

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09-08-2012, 08:21 PM
  #86
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Proving My Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post



Which players of Moran's era are the guys who would suffer from playing mroe games?



As I said, it gets erroneously applied to all goalie.

Goalies who have the good fortune to play on good defensive teams have better GAAs. Jonathan Quick is a good example.

Goalies who have the bad fortunre t play on poor defensive teams have worse GAAs. Paddy Moran is a good example.


Despite his GAA, Paddy Moran was widely considered an elite goalie in his era.



What players actually accomplish during their careers is not relevant in evaluating them in an all-time context? That's rediculous...

In the MLD, how good you are is an exact synonym for his accomplishments. How else do you think we should evaluate players?



Raw numbers are what they are. They give you the facts. What they don't give you is the meaning of those facts.

As I have said many times before, context matters. Raw point totals ignore that important context.



What is misleading about my Courtnall vs Haynes analogy? It shows exactly why raw numbers are meaingless. One guy scored 22 goals in a high-scoring era, which barely put him among the top-100 scorers. The other guy scores 16 in a low-scoring era, which put him in the top dozen. There's nothing misleading about it.

Furthermore, how it is irrelevant to a discussion about the context of raw offensive numbers?
Proving my points:

All of them. Take an 8 - 20 game season and have the players play a 70 game season. You will see fewer players playing complete seasons due to injuries. Rosters would expand since playing a sixty minute game once a week works but not 4 in 5 nights as was the case at times in the O6 era. Once you have injuries and larger rosters you have greater opportunities and players get Wally Pipped.

GAA, offer Al Rollins, Dominik Hasek, Roy Worters as prime examples. Hasek played on high average teams while Rollins and Worters played on very weak teams. All had GAAs that were very competitive for their era.Moran's was not on weak or average teams. Regardless Moran slipped deep into the MLD. and the reasons regardless of the spin are fairly obvious.

Courtnall/Haynes. We are not talking about finding arbitrary or random seasons for abstract comparisons.

Regardless of the spin retired players have no upside.Young players do. While this is irrelevent to the MLD you are punishing young active players for achieving more in a short time and you are creating artificial scenarios - car crash, death to do this.Very few of the retired players will move upwards to the ATD from the MLD. In fact more retired ATDs will draft as the young MLDS move up.


Evaluations - something that you are trying to avoid, are very simple. At some point the cumulative data about all the players from each team has to come to the top. Players can or cannot: score, play defense, stop the puck etc. Just focus on this and stop trying to make the grass grow.

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09-08-2012, 08:29 PM
  #87
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When Al Rollins won the Hart, his GAA was 6th out of 6 goalies who played at least 20 games, 7th out of 7 goalies who played at least 5 games.

Anyway, carry on

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09-08-2012, 08:30 PM
  #88
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Neutral

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Heh, the Shane Corson bio prominently notes that he was selected to three All Star Games.
Just a neutral presentation of data for all to read. Never used it to argue Corson's superiority over a contemporary.

Nice to see that the Mania management is finally getting around to reading the Orfuns' bios.

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09-08-2012, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Just a neutral presentation of data for all to read. Never used it to argue Corson's superiority over a contemporary.

Nice to see that the Mania management is finally getting around to reading the Orfuns' bios.
So when is the Orfuns management going to get around to reading the Mania bio on Paddy Moran that is linked to in the first post of this thread?

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09-08-2012, 08:46 PM
  #90
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Mld

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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah, I really can't see how Paddy Moran is even possibly being compared to Jonathan Quick. One is a HHOF goalie, the other has had one season of true relevance. This isn't even comparable at the moment. And don't even say that Quick is clutch, because Moran was another guy who was known as a big game goalie.

I honestly don't even see how this is happening right now.
If Moran was so good why is he available for the MLD? Outside of the active players only the bottom tier of any era's goaltenders is available.

They are being compared because that is the luck of the draw. I picked an upper tier modern goalie while the Mania picked a lower tier early goalie. Just recognizing this as fact.

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09-08-2012, 08:51 PM
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Did

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So when is the Orfuns management going to get around to reading the Mania bio on Paddy Moran that is linked to in the first post of this thread?
Did and saw the holes. If he was so good why is he in the MLD at all?

For someone who is not a top 60 All Time Goalie too much puffery.

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09-08-2012, 08:59 PM
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If Moran was so good why is he available for the MLD? Outside of the active players only the bottom tier of any era's goaltenders is available.
Probably because nobody spent much time researching him before. This is the first time I remember Moran falling to the MLD, and there is really no incentive to do a lot of research on ATD backups, which is what Moran has usually been used as.

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09-08-2012, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Did and saw the holes. If he was so good why is he in the MLD at all?

For someone who is not a top 60 All Time Goalie too much puffery.
Moran will be somewhere on my top 60 list for the goalie project, right next to LeSeuer. Not sure if those two will make my top 40, but they have a solid chance of squeezing in at the end of the top 40.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-08-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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09-08-2012, 09:28 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There is hyperbole, puffery, and pure nonsense in the claims about Paddy Moran. A pure MLD "Hat Trick"

Paddy Moran - the facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_M...8ice_hockey%29

Paddy Moran - the stats:

Regular season

Season Team League GP W L T SO GAA
1901–02 Quebec Athletics CAHL 8 4 4 0 0 4.25
1902–03 Quebec Athletics CAHL 7 3 4 0 0 6.57
1903–04 Quebec Athletics CAHL 6 5 1 0 0 6.17
1904–05 Quebec Athletics CAHL 9 7 2 0 0 5.00
1905–06 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 10 3 7 0 0 6.79
1906–07 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 6 0 6 0 0 9.61
1907–08 Quebec Bulldogs ECAHA 10 5 5 0 0 7.38
1908–09 Quebec Bulldogs ECHA 12 3 9 0 0 8.83
1910 Haileybury Comets NHA 11 3 8 0 0 7.21
1910–11 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 16 4 12 0 0 5.91
1911–12 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 18 10 8 0 0 4.26
1912–13 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 16 4 0 1 3.70
1913–14 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 12 8 0 1 3.58
1914–15 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 20 11 9 0 0 3.91
1915–16 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 22 10 10 0 0 3.54
1916–17 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 7 1 5 0 0 6.84
Playoffs

Season Team League GP W L SO GAA
1911–12 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 2 2 0 1 1.50
1912–13 Quebec Bulldogs NHA 2 2 0 0 2.50

Has anyone seen a worse pro or semi-pro goalie? Two Stanley Cup winning teams without having to face a western challenge. 17 seasons. Only 4 seasons with a GAA < 4.00, 2 seasons < 5.00, 11 seasons in between 5.00 and 10.00 GAA. Obviously a sub .500 W/L record.

Paddy Moran - technique:
Moran was a stand-up style goaltender.[1] At 5 ft 11 in (1.80 m) and 180 lb (82 kg/12 st 12 lb), he was considered a big goaltender for his era.[5] In Moran's era, goaltenders were not allowed to drop down to the ice to make saves, so his style suited him well.[5] Moran was especially noted for his aggressive defense of the area in front of his net. He used his stick to slash opposing players within reach. Moran often chewed tobacco while on the ice, and another favorite tactic of his was to expectorate at opposing players.[6] Moran's stick work was described as attempts to "slash [other players'] heads off with lightning strokes of his blade".[7] Moran often wore oversized sweaters, claiming that they kept him warm in the cold arenas; however, he kept it unbuttoned, and often used to catch shots.

Moran's Stanley Cup record is misleading. The low GAA was against two Maritime challengers who were extremely weak competition. In his last season he was replaced by Sam Hebert with a dramatic shift in team fortunes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1916%E2...ng_goaltenders

During his career, Paddy Moran played < 200 games of pro or semi-pro hockey. Adjusting for season length does not work since the longer they play the worse bad goalies become. Paddy Moran was carried by teams that could score - Joe Malone and Jack McDonald. For his team to win they had to outscore the opposition.
Zambia Mania does not have scorers at forward or on defence.

Paddy Moran's hockey legacy is that of an uncouth, vulgar stick man with little talent to support his game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Jonathan Quick is one of the younger goaltenders in the MLD and one of the best.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...quickjo01.html

Already a SC winner, he is the only MLD goalie to win a Conn Smythe.

This was accomplished at an age when his opposition in the MLD,Paddy Moran, was struggling to keep his GAA under 10.00. Also in a short career, Jonathan Quick has played more games than Paddy Moran did in a 17 season career. Adjust for season length all you want but you cannot escape the following realities. Quick has internal competition - Jonathan Bernier and a willing minor league system and free agency system of goalies ready and willing to step-up should he falter.

Quick does not have to be carried by a high powered offence. .916 SV% during the regular season and a .926 SV% during the playoffs, improving to a .946 SV% during the Kings 2012 SC run. More telling in the Moran Quick comparison is that Moran never had a seasonal GAA under 3.00 while Jonathan Quick has never had a seasonal GAA over 3.00 if he played 10 or more games.

The Orfuns have the best goalie by far in this QF.

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09-09-2012, 01:04 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Moran will be somewhere on my top 60 list for the goalie project, right next to LeSeuer. Not sure if those two will make my top 40, but they have a solid chance of squeezing in at the end of the top 40.
Yep I'd agree with this. He and LeSueur are very very similar in my book. They're defintiely going to be in that 40-60 area with me (I haven't legitimately delved into where in that vicinity yet, but I'd be absolutely shocked if they don't end up safely on my list).

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09-09-2012, 02:21 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Already a SC winner, he is the only MLD goalie to win a Conn Smythe.
This is irrelevant to the debate, but as a Hurricanes fan I feel compelled to point out that Smythe-winner Cam Ward is also in this MLD.

I knew this would be a good thread

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09-09-2012, 02:40 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This is irrelevant to the debate, but as a Hurricanes fan I feel compelled to point out that Smythe-winner Cam Ward is also in this MLD.

I knew this would be a good thread
Sorry but I slipped into the prevailing MLD think mode that achievements by young active NHLers are not worthy.

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09-09-2012, 05:05 AM
  #98
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Sorry but I slipped into the prevailing MLD think mode that achievements by young active NHLers are not worthy.
Their achievements aren't worth any more or less than any other player. The problem is that modern guys have incomplete careers, and for the purposes of this draft, that just means they have short careers.

Would you draft a guy from the 1950s who only played 4 seasons?

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09-09-2012, 05:40 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
All of them. Take an 8 - 20 game season and have the players play a 70 game season. You will see fewer players playing complete seasons due to injuries. Rosters would expand since playing a sixty minute game once a week works but not 4 in 5 nights as was the case at times in the O6 era. Once you have injuries and larger rosters you have greater opportunities and players get Wally Pipped.
And what would the effect be? If all players would be impacted equally, then the rankings for that era just stay the same.... and Moran remains an elite goalie.

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GAA, offer Al Rollins, Dominik Hasek, Roy Worters as prime examples. Hasek played on high average teams while Rollins and Worters played on very weak teams. All had GAAs that were very competitive for their era.Moran's was not on weak or average teams. Regardless Moran slipped deep into the MLD. and the reasons regardless of the spin are fairly obvious.
Al Rollins had two seasons with a respectable GAA. Both of those seasons were with the defensive juggernaught Maple Leafs. Once we went to a weaker team, his GAA was no longer respectable.

Dominik Hasek is the best goalie of all time. I don't think he should be the measuring stick, but he still played for defensive-minded teams.

Roy Worters was also an exceptional goalie, but he still only managed to put up a handful of seasons with a respectable GAA. He was regarded as an elite goalie, and maybe even the best of his time, but he often had poor GAAs.

As for the reason that Paddy Moran slipped to the MLD, I would say that it was simply a lack of knowledge about him. Now that a proper bio has been done on the guy, he'll never fall to the MLD again.

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Courtnall/Haynes. We are not talking about finding arbitrary or random seasons for abstract comparisons.
Especially when they prove how useless your raw stats are....

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Regardless of the spin retired players have no upside.Young players do. While this is irrelevent to the MLD you are punishing young active players for achieving more in a short time and you are creating artificial scenarios - car crash, death to do this.Very few of the retired players will move upwards to the ATD from the MLD. In fact more retired ATDs will draft as the young MLDS move up.
This draft ignores upside. There is no projection. You don't know what the future holds any more than anybody else does. For that reason, it was decided long ago that the ATDs and MLDs will ignore any future a player may or may not have.

The fact that Quick will probably add to his resume over the next few years is meaningless. He hasn't done it yet, so we ignore it. That's why I said it's best to just assume they are dead.

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Evaluations - something that you are trying to avoid, are very simple. At some point the cumulative data about all the players from each team has to come to the top. Players can or cannot: score, play defense, stop the puck etc. Just focus on this and stop trying to make the grass grow.
The biographies that TDMM and I created show exactly what our players can do.

Here's your quick analysis of each team's top-6 forwards....

Vanek-Haynes-Ward vs. Courtnall-Pederson-Harris
- the centers are close, but Pederson's edge in offensive skills outweigh Haynes' well-rounded play
- Vanek is a much better scorer than Courtnall, and that's pretty much all they bring to the table
- Ward is much better than Harris in every aspect of the game I can think of

Sandford-Smith-Wiseman vs. Corson-Staal-Courtnall
- Smith's scoring power outweight's Staal's defensive skills
- Sandford and Corson are quite comparable
- Wiseman is a much better offensive player than Courtnall

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09-09-2012, 07:23 AM
  #100
Canadiens1958
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Their achievements aren't worth any more or less than any other player. The problem is that modern guys have incomplete careers, and for the purposes of this draft, that just means they have short careers.

Would you draft a guy from the 1950s who only played 4 seasons?
Finally catching on. Other GMs drafted Hy Buller and Hugh Bolton. who played fewer games in the fifties than the equivalent of four seasons. I did not because there were better players available at that position.

Point is that my picks Karlsson and Quick face ageism discrimination while Bolton and Buller actually get venerated as good picks. Karlsson's achievements already are worth more than Buller's or Bolton's by any metric imaginable but he gets marked down unfairly because of the length of his career.

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