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Old
09-09-2012, 10:46 AM
  #51
etherialone
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Originally Posted by Kevin27NYI View Post
Yeah, one day...I'd say he will be a number two easy next season, if he isn't already.


LA takes this and runs. I know there is a cap and roster part to it, but they take this and laugh.
LA doesn't take this deal at all as it doesn't address any of our needs and makes us a weaker team overall. Toffoli is our only legitimate sniper as far as prospects go and our number one prospect at that (arguably).

We are ridiculously overloaded with NHL ready D prospects and our D core is young. With Voynov and Martinez having established themselves as NHL proven exceptional young Dmen and DD as our number one we already have 3 exceptional young D on the team with 3 kids who are NHL ready waiting in the wings. The Kings don't make a deal for another young dman, no matter how much I like Hamonic, we just don't need him.

Bernier is an NHL proven goalie who is ready to take a starting role. Will he become a great goalie in the NHL? That can be questioned but he has proven to the Kings and its fans that he is ready to become a starter and that means that we expect a solid return for him.


So no, the Kings don't take this deal at all as it does nothing for us.

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09-09-2012, 10:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by boredmale View Post
Okposo scored 24 goals this season, I am guessing he would more then make up the value Toffoli has
What is his contract status? How much is he paid and when will he become a UFA?

We have years of TT if we keep him.

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09-09-2012, 11:14 AM
  #53
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A pretty good deal but I don't like the Kings giving up Toffoli and/or Loktionov. Maybe adding a half decent prospect or another pick for the Kings would help.

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09-09-2012, 11:22 AM
  #54
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A pretty good deal but I don't like the Kings giving up Toffoli and/or Loktionov. Maybe adding a half decent prospect or another pick for the Kings would help.
...what?

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09-09-2012, 11:34 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
LA doesn't take this deal at all as it doesn't address any of our needs and makes us a weaker team overall. Toffoli is our only legitimate sniper as far as prospects go and our number one prospect at that (arguably).

We are ridiculously overloaded with NHL ready D prospects and our D core is young. With Voynov and Martinez having established themselves as NHL proven exceptional young Dmen and DD as our number one we already have 3 exceptional young D on the team with 3 kids who are NHL ready waiting in the wings. The Kings don't make a deal for another young dman, no matter how much I like Hamonic, we just don't need him.

Bernier is an NHL proven goalie who is ready to take a starting role. Will he become a great goalie in the NHL? That can be questioned but he has proven to the Kings and its fans that he is ready to become a starter and that means that we expect a solid return for him.


So no, the Kings don't take this deal at all as it does nothing for us.
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
What is his contract status? How much is he paid and when will he become a UFA?

We have years of TT if we keep him.

Hamonic > Voynov, Martinez, or anyone else 'ready and waiting in the wings'. Even if the organization is deep on D, you still can't argue that Hamonic doesn't make it better.

Toffoli is a decent prospect and may be a good NHLer, but I think he's pretty overrated on here. The really telling thing for me is he never made it on Team Canada at the WJC, even despite his sniping, which tells me he may be pretty one-dimensional. Don't get me wrong, I hope he does well, but if he turns out to be Okposo (fairly consistent 20 goal scoring winger) he'll be doing well for himself. And he has a caphit of $2.8M for four more years.

Finally, I'm sure it'll shock and anger a lot of Kings fans, but Bernier and Nilsson is nearly a wash. I know Bernier is the flavour of the month (or year) goalie prospect-wise, and he has a bit more seasoning than Nilsson, but I think both will probably put up similar numbers over their careers. Especially considering either is just Quick's backup. As for trade value, I don't know how anyone could expect more value than this completely one-sided deal.

I know this deal doesn't exactly fill the most necessary holes for the Kings, but the value is so ridiculously in their favour I don't see how it could be turned down, and any Kings fans saying otherwise must not know much about Hamonic or Okposo.

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09-09-2012, 11:36 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SLAPSHOT723 View Post
...what?
Haven't you heard? Toffoli is practically a shoe-in for the Rocket Richard Trophy in a couple years. I'd throw in Strome to seal the deal.

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09-09-2012, 11:46 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by handyj View Post
Hamonic > Voynov, Martinez, or anyone else 'ready and waiting in the wings'. Even if the organization is deep on D, you still can't argue that Hamonic doesn't make it better.
I agree about Bernier/Nilsson, but right now I wouldn't trade Voynov for Hamonic straight up, no way. Voynov doesn't lay the big hits, but he is absolutely dynamic. The whole reason Jack Johnson was traded was because Voynov is every bit his equal on the offensive side, and far more dependable on the back end. His poise as a rookie was phenomenal, and he's very confident. I expect him to be a 30-40 point guy with savvy defensive skill for years to come. Guys like that are hard to replace.

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09-09-2012, 12:01 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
What is his contract status? How much is he paid and when will he become a UFA?

We have years of TT if we keep him.
He's a ufa in 4 more seasons. Due a team friendly $2m in 2012-2013 and $3m in 2013-2014.
With Parenteau gone, it's very unlikely the isles trade Okposo (or Grabner imo) anytime soon.

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Old
09-09-2012, 12:24 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Riseonfire View Post
Instead of ripping up the OP proposal, lets try and see what trade could be worked out between these two teams.

Kings fans: What are your needs?
What do you have excess of?


Islanders needs: Young dmen, both the physical defensive type and the quick puck moving type.
Excess: ...... Picks and 2nd tier prospects.

Looking it over, whatever trade may come most likely won't be a blockbuster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choralone View Post
Kings are stocked with young defensemen/defensive prospects. Ones in play I think would be Alec Martinez, Davis Drewiske, Thomas Hickey, and Jake Muzzin.

Kings still need skilled young winger prospects, especially ones that aren't undersized and have top 6 potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles are also stocked with young D prospects and want to add size/ skill to their top 9 group of forwards, which is why they gave 6'6 Joensuu a contract this summer, luring him back from Europe.

I don't see what Alec Martinez, David Drewiske, Thomas Hickey, and Jake Muzzin bring, that De Haan, Donovan, Ness, Pokka, Kitchon and Russo can't.


Hard to see Snow moving any of his big, skilled forward prospects Kabanov/Nelson/Nino/Lee for Alec Martinez, David Drewiske, Thomas Hickey, and Jake Muzzin. Imo he'll want to give his own D prospects icetime.
I think this sequence of posts says all that needs to be said.

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Old
09-09-2012, 02:10 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by handyj View Post
Hamonic > Voynov, Martinez, or anyone else 'ready and waiting in the wings'. Even if the organization is deep on D, you still can't argue that Hamonic doesn't make it better.

Toffoli is a decent prospect and may be a good NHLer, but I think he's pretty overrated on here. The really telling thing for me is he never made it on Team Canada at the WJC, even despite his sniping, which tells me he may be pretty one-dimensional. Don't get me wrong, I hope he does well, but if he turns out to be Okposo (fairly consistent 20 goal scoring winger) he'll be doing well for himself. And he has a caphit of $2.8M for four more years.

Finally, I'm sure it'll shock and anger a lot of Kings fans, but Bernier and Nilsson is nearly a wash. I know Bernier is the flavour of the month (or year) goalie prospect-wise, and he has a bit more seasoning than Nilsson, but I think both will probably put up similar numbers over their careers. Especially considering either is just Quick's backup. As for trade value, I don't know how anyone could expect more value than this completely one-sided deal.

I know this deal doesn't exactly fill the most necessary holes for the Kings, but the value is so ridiculously in their favour I don't see how it could be turned down, and any Kings fans saying otherwise must not know much about Hamonic or Okposo.
What does that have to do with anything? Tyler Seguin and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins didn't make it either. Hamonic may be better than than Voynov or Martinez, but you're missing the point that trading our best offensive prospects for someone that doesn't fill a need at all doesn't make any sense.

A trade between the Islanders and Kings makes sense (for the Kings) if it involves a Kings defensive prospect. Something around Muzzin+ for Kabanov? Kings are only really missing top-6 potential wingers. If nothing can be worked out for a defense-for-offense trade, then there's no deal here and we can all move on.

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09-09-2012, 02:17 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
What does that have to do with anything? Tyler Seguin and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins didn't make it either. Hamonic may be better than than Voynov or Martinez, but you're missing the point that trading our best offensive prospects for someone that doesn't fill a need at all doesn't make any sense.

A trade between the Islanders and Kings makes sense (for the Kings) if it involves a Kings defensive prospect. Something around Muzzin+ for Kabanov? Kings are only really missing top-6 potential wingers. If nothing can be worked out for a defense-for-offense trade, then there's no deal here and we can all move on.
Islanders need to keep their forward prospects, especially RW where I believe that is their weakest position.

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09-09-2012, 02:20 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by markisonfire View Post
What does that have to do with anything? Tyler Seguin and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins didn't make it either. Hamonic may be better than than Voynov or Martinez, but you're missing the point that trading our best offensive prospects for someone that doesn't fill a need at all doesn't make any sense.

A trade between the Islanders and Kings makes sense (for the Kings) if it involves a Kings defensive prospect. Something around Muzzin+ for Kabanov? Kings are only really missing top-6 potential wingers. If nothing can be worked out for a defense-for-offense trade, then there's no deal here and we can all move on.
Well, then let's move along because the Isles want to add size+ skill to their top 9. Not much interest in trading 6'2 Kabanov for Muzzin when he's not an upgrade on the isles own big boys Mayfield, Pedan and Reinhart .

Kabanov is headed to the AHL for his first pro season. He's tweeting about his new apt. in Conn.

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Old
09-09-2012, 02:29 PM
  #63
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The Kings don't really need Okposo, the Isles don't really need Bernier. Both are quality players, but LA has Williams and Carter, possibly even Brown if they slide him back, on the RW. Bernier is likely an improvement to the top of the Islanders depth chart in goal, but his return price is more than the Isles need to pay for an upgrade.

Loktionov is MUCH better than given credit for - he is ready to play full NHL minutes as a 2nd line center right now and would slide into the NYI lineup seemlessly. Tremendous vision, a tenacious backchecker, and good hands. He just needs time to comfortably work his way into the NHL, and he won't get it in LA. He would be a terrific center for Okposo and/or Grabner. He's not big, but he doesn't shy away.

The Kings would love to add a player like Hamonic, but it would mean adding a player like Scuderi to the deal for his last year under contract. Neither Voynov or Martinez are likely to be dealt due to their solid play, puck moving abilities and cheap contracts. Muzzin's ready to step in, but he has no role at the NHL level yet. Hickey would be in the NHL for a number of teams right now, and is still solidifying his positional defense at the AHL level. He is going to make it to the NHL and have a long career as well, just not with a team as deep as LA, and the Kings have no reason to move him.

And let's face it - Hamonic is a quality young player, but by no means is he an untouchable type. He's a fan favorite because of his style, but he isn't a top-4 player on a good team yet. A top pairing defenseman in the long run? Maybe, but that is still a long ways off if you would like your squad to make the playoffs.

Loktionov and Muzzin for Hamonic is the right value, but neither team needs to do that deal.

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09-09-2012, 02:42 PM
  #64
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Loktionov and Muzzin for Hamonic is the right value, but neither team needs to do that deal.
Not really. I have faith in Loktionov, but he's still unproven. Hamonic is the Islanders' #2 defenseman. I know you said that neither team would do it and I agree with you, but it's not the right value.

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09-09-2012, 03:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Spitsfan67 View Post
To Islanders:
John Bernier
Andrie Loktionov
Tyler Toffoli





To Kings:
Anders Nilsson
Kyle Okposo
Travis Hamonic
2nd 2013



Islanders Get A Great Young goalie in Bernier, a guy who can steal games...Dipietro hasent worked out obviously the way he wanted or the islanders wanted, they would have to trade him in a seperate move....They also get Skilled Russian forward Loktionov who can stick handle in a phone booth and the guy has tremendous upside he can be an impact player one day, they also get a good young Sniper who has put up great numbers in the OHL and will Be a good NHL'er.



Kings get Nilsson a good Big(6'5) young goalie who will be a good back up behind Quick, the also get Okposo who's a good 2nd/3rd Line power forward and will look great in a Kings Uniform they, they also get a good young Defensive defenseman in Hamonic who will be a great 3/4 Dman one day in this league.




Is this FAIR? IF NOT Tell me why and say what you would add to whatever side to make it an even deal.
So, Bernier is a great young goalie who can steal games, despite having not proven anything at the NHL level as of yet and Loktionov is a player with tremendous upside who's also not proven that at the NHL level...yet you turn around and call Okposo a good 2nd/3rd line power forward although he has proven much more than Loktionov and very well may have more upside and Hamonic, despite already being a solid 3/4 d-man is only a good young defenseman who will be a great 3/4 one day? It would seem your adjectives might be reversed in this case.

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Old
09-09-2012, 03:27 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by bland View Post

Loktionov is MUCH better than given credit for - he is ready to play full NHL minutes as a 2nd line center right now and would slide into the NYI lineup seemlessly. Tremendous vision, a tenacious backchecker, and good hands. He just needs time to comfortably work his way into the NHL, and he won't get it in LA. He would be a terrific center for Okposo and/or Grabner. He's not big, but he doesn't shy away.

The Kings would love to add a player like Hamonic, but it would mean adding a player like Scuderi to the deal for his last year under contract. .
1.Frans Nielsen's good for 45-47 pts on the 2nd line. Isles would rather have him keeping the seat warm for Strome/Brock Nelson, then trade for an unproven prospect and put that prospect on the 2nd line.

20 yr old Brock Nelson's headed to the AHL for his first pro season and there has been speculation in the press, that the AHL might allow 19 yr olds like Strome to play in the AHL for the 2012-2013 season.


2.The isles have major budget woes.No way would trade Hamonic who is 5 yrs from unrestricted free agency, to land Scuderi, who's a yr away from unrestricted free agency. Check's Snow's trade M.O. He doesn't give up his top youngsters or 1st rounders for soon to be ufas. Hasn't in 5 yrs.

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Old
09-09-2012, 11:03 PM
  #67
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Jeeze Islander fans... One of your own proposed a trade, and when that was shot down you asked what the Kings have and what they are looking for, we told you, and you still respond like we're pissing in your Cherios.

The Kings just won the Cup and have brought back the entire roster. We don't NEED to make a trade with the Islanders or anyone else, other than move some older prospects that we are in danger of losing without compensation. So fine, there's no trade to be made here.

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09-09-2012, 11:27 PM
  #68
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What does that have to do with anything? Tyler Seguin and Ryan Nugent-Hopkins didn't make it either.
That's a pretty bad comparison. The 2 guys you mentioned didn't make it in their draft year(ie they were 17) while the other didn't make it as a 19 year old

For the sake of your comparison, you would have to find a high scorer junior player who played till he was 20 in the CHL(or even college) and never played for Canada in the World Jrs


Last edited by boredmale: 09-09-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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09-09-2012, 11:30 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Choralone View Post
Jeeze Islander fans... One of your own proposed a trade, and when that was shot down you asked what the Kings have and what they are looking for, we told you, and you still respond like we're pissing in your Cherios.

The Kings just won the Cup and have brought back the entire roster. We don't NEED to make a trade with the Islanders or anyone else, other than move some older prospects that we are in danger of losing without compensation. So fine, there's no trade to be made here.
I'm not sure that it was an Islander fan that proposed the trade since all Islanders fans feel that Hamonic is a potential 1/2 def. I believe the OP is neutral but I could be wrong.

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09-10-2012, 12:30 AM
  #70
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I'm not sure that it was an Islander fan that proposed the trade since all Islanders fans feel that Hamonic is a potential 1/2 def. I believe the OP is neutral but I could be wrong.
My bad then. I redirect my confused ire towards the OP.

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09-10-2012, 12:31 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Choralone View Post
Jeeze Islander fans... One of your own proposed a trade, and when that was shot down you asked what the Kings have and what they are looking for, we told you, and you still respond like we're pissing in your Cherios.

The Kings just won the Cup and have brought back the entire roster. We don't NEED to make a trade with the Islanders or anyone else, other than move some older prospects that we are in danger of losing without compensation. So fine, there's no trade to be made here.
Overreact much?

The OP is not from an Isles fan.
And so what if one of the NYI fans in the thread,wants to see a trade.
These proposals to add D prospects and a center prospect , make little sense for the isles because they have stocked up on D prospects, have three pmd knocking on the door in the AHL and their top two center prospects are recent 1st rounders with 2nd line potential.

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09-10-2012, 01:43 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Overreact much?

The OP is not from an Isles fan.
And so what if one of the NYI fans in the thread,wants to see a trade.
These proposals to add D prospects and a center prospect , make little sense for the isles because they have stocked up on D prospects, have three pmd knocking on the door in the AHL and their top two center prospects are recent 1st rounders with 2nd line potential.
I don't care if people want to talk trades. It's what this board is for.

However, the tone of your replies in particular have come across as sort of indignant. If anything, I get the impression from your posts that the Isles have everything they need and there's no point in discussing things.

My point as a Kings fan is that Kings don't need to trade with the Islanders either.

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09-10-2012, 01:54 AM
  #73
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What holes does it open? Nilsson can take the backup job. And by adding Okposo and Hamonic it opens up trading options.

That's like me saying I won't trade Nielsen for James Neal. As far as holes and roster spots go, it's bad for the Isles, real bad but you take it and run. I don't know why you are 'leaving the value of it out'.
Ha, awesome. For some reason I read it as Robert Nilsson, not Anders Nilsson. Yes, I know he's been traded. Let me taste my foot a bit longer.

The Kings have no immediate holes to fill. Everyone is returning. Until proven otherwise, they don't need to change anything on their NHL roster. Their greatest organizational need is high-end scoring talent in the pipeline. If they trade away Toffoli, that's spending out of where they are poorest.

Neal is an obvious upgrade over Nielsen. If that trade ever happened, Neal would take over 1st line LW/RW and bump either Okposo or Moulson down. You'd figure something out to fill in the void left by Nielsen. Sign a free agent, promote Bailey back up, whatever. Your team would be significantly better, at least on paper. Who would any of the pieces coming over from the Isles be an obvious upgrade over on the Kings?

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09-10-2012, 07:25 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles had to left Parenteau walk, coming off a 67 pt season because they felt $4m was too steep for their internal budget. I can't see them wanting to pay Gagne $4.5m, coming off a 17 pt season.
Aren't the Isles like ~4 from the floor? They may have to pick up salary on a single roster spot from somewhere if the plan is to promote from within.

Muzzin, or Hickey to the Isles makes little sense since if the neither makes the Kings, the Isles would be close to getting first crack at them on waivers. What about something like Gagne and Clifford for picks or a prospect? The trouble with the Kings right now is that if they take any NHL ready player back they'd need to send a body out to make room. I think moving a couple forwards would open up spots for King and Nolan fulltime on the Kings. Of course not sure what the value for two players with concussion histories nets in trade...

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09-10-2012, 07:47 AM
  #75
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theres actually LA fans who woudlnt take this trade ? geez Hamonic is underrated here

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