HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Article on Luongo practices this morning and greatly favors return to Panthers

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-09-2012, 07:40 PM
  #351
FrolikFan67
Registered User
 
FrolikFan67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,345
vCash: 500
bjugstad isnt going anywhere. the prospect will probably be petrovic/shore, i dont think howden is going anywhere but i guess its possible (unlike bjugstad), plus a roster player, most likely matthias, not goc, weiss and goc are our top 2 centers. maybe a goalie, theo has 1 yr and a ntc and clemmer has 2yrs w/out a ntc. i expect something along the lines of Matthias + Petrovic + Clemmensen + 2nd thats IF we get him. and if the cap goes as low as 58, w/ huberdeau on the books and kulikovs new contract vancouver may have to take more salary, maybe kopecky instead of matthias, or matthias and santorelli. not saying luongo is only worth this, but i think this is what he'd go for IF he were traded to florida.

FrolikFan67 is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 07:44 PM
  #352
Vankiller Whale
And so it begins
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Goc isn't going anywhere, we need him in case Huby doesn't work out at center and Goc needs o move up. It appears Tallon is looking for a deal similar to what brought Soup over.
Luongo for Campbell?

Vankiller Whale is online now  
Old
09-09-2012, 08:22 PM
  #353
ProstheticConscience
Kunst
 
ProstheticConscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canuck Nation
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
I don't understand why Vancouver fans think they might be able to get Bjugstad in part of a Luongo deal, when it was clearly stated Tallon wouldn't budge for just Bjugstad alone, and if this was the case that Tallon was willing to trade him for Luongo why hasn't a trade already happened?
You don't understand? Everyone and his dog is falling all over themselves to tell us how worthless Luongo is, so we might as well just ask for whatever we want. Not like we have anything to lose here.

And why hasn't a trade already happened...hmm...yeah, that's a real head-scratcher, isn't it? It's not as if there's anything going on at the league level that's caused all player transactions between teams to grind to a complete standstill or anything.

ProstheticConscience is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 08:32 PM
  #354
Beezeral
Registered User
 
Beezeral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 2,144
vCash: 500
Since this logic hasn't been mentioned yet ITT.

Bobby Ryan was put on the block, Tallon sent out feelers, Ducks responded with any deal must involve Bjugstad. Tallon passed.

Now in terms of value to the Panthers, Bobby Ryan>>>>> Luongo.

It makes absolutely no sense that the Panthers would not even entertain the thought of sending the Ducks Bjugstad for a depserately needed goal scorer like Ryan, but will all of a sudden send him away for a goalie that I think we can all agree would be a nice luxury, but not a need based move.

Beezeral is online now  
Old
09-09-2012, 08:36 PM
  #355
MillarWithASave
HUBY DOOBY SHUTUP
 
MillarWithASave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Melbourne, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 4,226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
You don't understand? Everyone and his dog is falling all over themselves to tell us how worthless Luongo is, so we might as well just ask for whatever we want. Not like we have anything to lose here.

And why hasn't a trade already happened...hmm...yeah, that's a real head-scratcher, isn't it? It's not as if there's anything going on at the league level that's caused all player transactions between teams to grind to a complete standstill or anything.
A trade could've happened before CBA talks began? What happened from July 1st - Mid August?

MillarWithASave is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 10:06 PM
  #356
AmazingNuck
Registered User
 
AmazingNuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Love garrison, sad he's gone but he was basically Fulton reed. Great stay at home defenseman with a slap shot. Absolutely no offensive skills other than that. Canucks need a Brian Campbell type player to be feeding him one timers or he will struggle.

Now back to the trade.

I just don't see the panthers bending on this deal Unless the new CBA magically cuts 5 years off luongo's contract. If the panthers were willing to trade bjugstad, it would have been done already. Gillis isn't getting a better return than that.

I also don't expect the panthers to get into a bidding war. It's nice to be on the strength side of a trade for once
The Canucks' needs weren't just a puck-moving, offensive defenseman, but a top-4 defenseman of any style. If Garrison's game doesn't improve our offense, his game will at least improve our defense- an area where every single one of our defenseman struggled due to losing a 25 minute defenseman. Edler, Bieksa and Hamhuis had to give up defensive energy to focus on the offensive side. With Garrison on board, the rest of our defensemen will have more energy for both zones.

Garrison will definitely help Edler though. Edler was atrocious defensively and tried to play an all-out offensive game without a solid partner backing him up. He has that now in Garrison. Also, the Sedins fed Salo one-timers all of the time, and I would expect Garrison to have the same luxury.

AmazingNuck is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 10:41 PM
  #357
Edler Von Gud
Registered User
 
Edler Von Gud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,087
vCash: 1308
Send a message via MSN to Edler Von Gud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Since this logic hasn't been mentioned yet ITT.

Bobby Ryan was put on the block, Tallon sent out feelers, Ducks responded with any deal must involve Bjugstad. Tallon passed.

Now in terms of value to the Panthers, Bobby Ryan>>>>> Luongo.

It makes absolutely no sense that the Panthers would not even entertain the thought of sending the Ducks Bjugstad for a depserately needed goal scorer like Ryan, but will all of a sudden send him away for a goalie that I think we can all agree would be a nice luxury, but not a need based move.
If Tallon turned down a deal to get Ryan because of Bjustad....that's just stupid.

Edler Von Gud is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:13 PM
  #358
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 18,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
A trade could've happened before CBA talks began? What happened from July 1st - Mid August?
I'm pretty sure the GMS didn't wake one day in mid august to a phone call from Bettman breaking the news a CBA was in fact up for renewal.

me2 is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:20 PM
  #359
I in the Eye
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Country:
Posts: 4,180
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
As a Canucks fan, I'd rather just keep Luongo if that's the best offer.
Petrovic is an excellent prospect, IMO... One with attributes that would fit the Canucks like a puzzle piece... Perhaps long-term Edler partner, with likely first call-up duty this year... Right-side dman, tough, smart, puck mover, real good defensively...

One full year in the AHL, and my opinion is that Petrovic will be seen as being untouchable...

My feeling is that Petrovic is perhaps the target all along... Gillis' asking price in June would be the highest asking price... If Bjugstad is the target all along, then I'd think the asking price in June would be Huberdeau (or Gudbranson)... If Gillis indeed asked for Bjugstad in June, then IMO, his main target is someone else... Someone "lower"... Bjugstad perhaps isn't the serious asking price, IMO... Like $58 mill isn't a serious cap consideration for the players to accept... It's the first offer...

My "serious" asking price, if I'm Gillis, is Petrovic + Shore + 1st... I also like what I hear of Shore (potential future Malhotra replacement), and the first in the alleged deep draft is obviously attractive... Shore's a nice prospect himself... To me, this type of asking price can go somewhere... It's a nice package in itself, with room to move... Shore too much - Tallon seriously won't budge? Well, Florida has a list of mid-level prospects that might work... With this type of deal, trading Luongo satisfies a need... Prospect depth - quality prospect depth (older prospects) who have the attributes that the Canucks are looking for going forward... Younger, Faster, Stronger, Smarter, More Physical... Florida's strength is in quality prospect depth... That's where the Canucks can get a good return for Luongo, IMO... Grabbing a couple quality prospects that aren't the "cream off the top" (to Florida) but would be pretty close to that in a "normal" prospect pool... Find the ones here that fit within the mold of what the Canucks are looking for going forward (there's lots to choose from)... Going for the top of the prospect list I think is a non-starter... Florida needs their top prospects like pretty much every team does... Florida can't afford to give up on their top prospects (like any team can't)... Is Luongo worth it? I think so, absolutely... But if not 1-for-1, 1-for-2 or 1-for-3... Florida can afford to give up on the step below... and if Florida doesn't, they are just being obstinate... And, there's one, I think, that could soon be seen as a top prospect himself (in Petrovic)... If Florida doesn't trade him now, Petrovic will soon be untradeable this time next year (that's my prediction anyways)...

The lowest offer I'd personally accept - to get this all dealt with without dragging it on is Petrovic + choice to flip 1sts... I realize that this is much lower than what many of my Canuck brothers and sisters think... That's still a nice return for me, only because I think Petrovic has it in him to become a physical 1st pairing dman - and only because the 2013 draft is apparently real deep, and if there's a player the Canucks are specifically targeting (which they probably are), this gives them a much better chance to get him (also, if there is a lost season, then it's like having two balls in the draft lottery - pick the ball closest to 1st overall)... Petrovic has got a fighting chance to become a better defensive Bieksa, and long-term Edler partner... I could definitely be wrong on Petrovic (anybody, why am I wrong? where am I wrong? What proof or logic is there that Petrovic doesn't have a good chance to reach this - help me from making a big mistake :-)... But, the Canucks missed out on Weber... Canucks missed out on Schultz... I don't think the Canucks miss out (or should miss out) on Petrovic... They are looking for that right-side dman future Edler partner, IMO... and I think Petrovic should be proving his worth sooner rather than later...

If that is still too high, then ya, I'd rather keep Luongo... and see what the tide brings later...


Last edited by I in the Eye: 09-09-2012 at 11:37 PM.
I in the Eye is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:23 PM
  #360
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post

Yes, Boston's numbers were certainly inflated as well. The Northeast was in rough shape. Buffalo struggled, Ottawa started slow, Montreal was almost as bad as Edmonton, and Toronto has been in a holding pattern akin to Calgary, on the outside of the playoff bubble.

The Southeast has notoriously struggled for ages, sure. But Carolina has made a lot of nice additions to their roster, Florida has taken steps forward, Washington looks great again, and Tampa should take a step forward this season too. But sure, nobody is saying the Southeast is a powerhouse. I thought I made that point myself by pointing out Washington's regular season success in 2009-10.

I'm not saying a good division record is everything, but it would be ludicrous to say a weaker division doesn't help a team climb the standings.



It's subjective either way you look at it. Either the Canucks feasted on a weaker division and are undeserving of their 2 consecutive PTs, or they are just flat out good and the wins are a by product of them being a strong team. It only gets objective when you delve into the numbers. And when you do that, you find that their divisional record wasn't wholly out of line with some of the other good teams out there, like Boston and Chicago.



I'm in the latter group. Their strong divisional record is only a by product of them being a strong team. Just like Boston is a strong team and they proved it by running roughshod over the NE division. Good teams win.



They've won the PT twice. Nobody has won more games over the past 4 yrs. Further, they are 1 yr removed from going to game 7 of the SCF. And people are saying that they are propped up by a weak division? Please... If there's an argument to be made, show it by the numbers. Boston benefited more from their division, yet most recognize them to be a good team. The same with Chicago. So no one is going to say they are mediocre without their divisional records. Then why say it for Vancouver?



Good teams win. Period.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:43 PM
  #361
ProstheticConscience
Kunst
 
ProstheticConscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canuck Nation
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MillarWithASave View Post
A trade could've happened before CBA talks began? What happened from July 1st - Mid August?
How about everybody knowing the CBA ****storm that was coming.

ProstheticConscience is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:55 PM
  #362
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Petrovic is an excellent prospect, IMO... One with attributes that would fit the Canucks like a puzzle piece... Perhaps long-term Edler partner, with likely first call-up duty this year... Right-side dman, tough, smart, puck mover, real good defensively...

One full year in the AHL, and my opinion is that Petrovic will be seen as being untouchable...

My feeling is that Petrovic is perhaps the target all along... Gillis' asking price in June would be the highest asking price... If Bjugstad is the target all along, then I'd think the asking price in June would be Huberdeau (or Gudbranson)... If Gillis indeed asked for Bjugstad in June, then IMO, his main target is someone else... Someone "lower"... Bjugstad perhaps isn't the serious asking price, IMO... Like $58 mill isn't a serious cap consideration for the players to accept... It's the first offer...

My "serious" asking price, if I'm Gillis, is Petrovic + Shore + 1st... I also like what I hear of Shore (potential future Malhotra replacement), and the first in the alleged deep draft is obviously attractive... Shore's a nice prospect himself... To me, this type of asking price can go somewhere... It's a nice package in itself, with room to move... Shore too much - Tallon seriously won't budge? Well, Florida has a list of mid-level prospects that might work... With this type of deal, trading Luongo satisfies a need... Prospect depth - quality prospect depth (older prospects) who have the attributes that the Canucks are looking for going forward... Younger, Faster, Stronger, Smarter, More Physical... Florida's strength is in quality prospect depth... That's where the Canucks can get a good return for Luongo, IMO... Grabbing a couple quality prospects that aren't the "cream off the top" (to Florida) but would be pretty close to that in a "normal" prospect pool... Find the ones here that fit within the mold of what the Canucks are looking for going forward (there's lots to choose from)... Going for the top of the prospect list I think is a non-starter... Florida needs their top prospects like pretty much every team does... Florida can't afford to give up on their top prospects (like any team can't)... Is Luongo worth it? I think so, absolutely... But if not 1-for-1, 1-for-2 or 1-for-3... Florida can afford to give up on the step below... and if Florida doesn't, they are just being obstinate... And, there's one, I think, that could soon be seen as a top prospect himself (in Petrovic)... If Florida doesn't trade him now, Petrovic will soon be untradeable this time next year (that's my prediction anyways)...

The lowest offer I'd personally accept - to get this all dealt with without dragging it on is Petrovic + choice to flip 1sts... I realize that this is much lower than what many of my Canuck brothers and sisters think... That's still a nice return for me, only because I think Petrovic has it in him to become a physical 1st pairing dman - and only because the 2013 draft is apparently real deep, and if there's a player the Canucks are specifically targeting (which they probably are), this gives them a much better chance to get him (also, if there is a lost season, then it's like having two balls in the draft lottery - pick the ball closest to 1st overall)... Petrovic has got a fighting chance to become a better defensive Bieksa, and long-term Edler partner... I could definitely be wrong on Petrovic (anybody, why am I wrong?)... But, the Canucks missed out on Weber... Canucks missed out on Schultz... I don't think the Canucks miss out (or should miss out) on Petrovic... They are looking for that right-side dman future Edler partner, IMO... and I think Petrovic should be proving his worth sooner rather than later...

If that is still too high, then ya, I'd rather keep Luongo... and see what the tide brings later...


If Gillis moves off Bjugstad... If. Only then could I see something like the above go down. Perhaps something like:


Shore + Petrovic + 1st + Upshall for Raymond + Luongo


Expanding on what you have already listed.


That's of course if Upshall agrees to waive his NMC...

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-09-2012, 11:56 PM
  #363
kurt
the last emperor
 
kurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's subjective either way you look at it. Either the Canucks feasted on a weaker division and are undeserving of their 2 consecutive PTs, or they are just flat out good and the wins are a by product of them being a strong team. It only gets objective when you delve into the numbers. And when you do that, you find that their divisional record wasn't wholly out of line with some of the other good teams out there, like Boston and Chicago.

I'm in the latter group. Their strong divisional record is only a by product of them being a strong team. Just like Boston is a strong team and they proved it by running roughshod over the NE division. Good teams win.

They've won the PT twice. Nobody has won more games over the past 4 yrs. Further, they are 1 yr removed from going to game 7 of the SCF. And people are saying that they are propped up by a weak division? Please... If there's an argument to be made, show it by the numbers. Boston benefited more from their division, yet most recognize them to be a good team. The same with Chicago. So no one is going to say they are mediocre without their divisional records. Then why say it for Vancouver?

Good teams win. Period.
You're dreaming up your own conclusion from what I said. I never said Vancouver is "mediocre" or "undeserving", and I fail to understand why Canucks fans get irrationally defensive when someone suggests the obvious - that the state of the Northwest helped the Canucks become #1 overall.

I definitely think the Canucks are among the best teams in the league. Don't read otherwise.

kurt is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:18 AM
  #364
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
You're dreaming up your own conclusion from what I said. I never said Vancouver is "mediocre" or "undeserving", and I fail to understand why Canucks fans get irrationally defensive when someone suggests the obvious - that the state of the Northwest helped the Canucks become #1 overall.

I definitely think the Canucks are among the best teams in the league. Don't read otherwise.


Because it's a meaningless statement. The NW division wasn't a great deal better in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010. Yet the Canucks finished 3rd in the conference during those years. Yet this argument didn't surface. But now that they are winning PTs, the relative weakness of the division is highlighted? Why? It's a disingenuous argument.



It's no wonder fans choose to confront the misconception.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:22 AM
  #365
ProstheticConscience
Kunst
 
ProstheticConscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canuck Nation
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
You're dreaming up your own conclusion from what I said. I never said Vancouver is "mediocre" or "undeserving", and I fail to understand why Canucks fans get irrationally defensive when someone suggests the obvious - that the state of the Northwest helped the Canucks become #1 overall.

I definitely think the Canucks are among the best teams in the league. Don't read otherwise.
Could it possibly be that the NW was so crappy outside Vancouver was partly because they had to play Vancouver 6 times a year? And we get defensive because 90% of the time that the "weak division" argument comes up it's raised by someone who can't be bothered to look at their record against other divisions.

ProstheticConscience is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:25 AM
  #366
nhlfan9191
Registered User
 
nhlfan9191's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Saskatoon, Sk
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
It's subjective either way you look at it. Either the Canucks feasted on a weaker division and are undeserving of their 2 consecutive PTs, or they are just flat out good and the wins are a by product of them being a strong team. It only gets objective when you delve into the numbers. And when you do that, you find that their divisional record wasn't wholly out of line with some of the other good teams out there, like Boston and Chicago.



I'm in the latter group. Their strong divisional record is only a by product of them being a strong team. Just like Boston is a strong team and they proved it by running roughshod over the NE division. Good teams win.



They've won the PT twice. Nobody has won more games over the past 4 yrs. Further, they are 1 yr removed from going to game 7 of the SCF. And people are saying that they are propped up by a weak division? Please... If there's an argument to be made, show it by the numbers. Boston benefited more from their division, yet most recognize them to be a good team. The same with Chicago. So no one is going to say they are mediocre without their divisional records. Then why say it for Vancouver?



Good teams win. Period.
It doesn't help that no teams in the NW other than Vancouver have made the playoffs for two straight years. The Canucks were a powerhouse in 2010/11. But last season, they took the president trophy in the last few days of the season. Surpassing teams like the Rangers and Blues, who had to play in divisions with strong teams like Detroit, Nashville, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and New Jersey.

nhlfan9191 is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:45 AM
  #367
WarriorofTime
Registered User
 
WarriorofTime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,602
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Because it's a meaningless statement. The NW division wasn't a great deal better in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010. Yet the Canucks finished 3rd in the conference during those years. Yet this argument didn't surface. But now that they are winning PTs, the relative weakness of the division is highlighted? Why? It's a disingenuous argument.



It's no wonder fans choose to confront the misconception.
The Canucks got better between 09-10 and 10-11. Doesn't mean the weak division wasn't helping them before. How is it disingenuous? You don't think playing in a crappy division makes it easier to pick up wins?

WarriorofTime is online now  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:46 AM
  #368
Hammer79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kelowna
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,969
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
It doesn't help that no teams in the NW other than Vancouver have made the playoffs for two straight years. The Canucks were a powerhouse in 2010/11. But last season, they took the president trophy in the last few days of the season. Surpassing teams like the Rangers and Blues, who had to play in divisions with strong teams like Detroit, Nashville, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and New Jersey.
Canucks still played 20 games against the Central and Pacific. Yes, they played 24 games against their own division and dominated it, but they also had winning records by about a 2-1 margin against the other two divisions. St Louis had 2 extra games against Columbus, which was an even worst team than the Oilers, and only had 4 less games against the NW than Vancouver did.

It's harder to compare Rangers vs western teams, because the SE division is weaker than the NW, and the NE division probably isn't as strong as the Pacific. The Atlantic is either on par with or slightly stronger than the Central. The PT race could have gone either way. It was a close race and came down to the last game.

Hammer79 is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:49 AM
  #369
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 18,497
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Since this logic hasn't been mentioned yet ITT.

Bobby Ryan was put on the block, Tallon sent out feelers, Ducks responded with any deal must involve Bjugstad. Tallon passed.


Now in terms of value to the Panthers, Bobby Ryan>>>>> Luongo.

It makes absolutely no sense that the Panthers would not even entertain the thought of sending the Ducks Bjugstad for a depserately needed goal scorer like Ryan, but will all of a sudden send him away for a goalie that I think we can all agree would be a nice luxury, but not a need based move.
When was this?

Exit Dose is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 12:57 AM
  #370
kurt
the last emperor
 
kurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,563
vCash: 500
Is there a forum rule somewhere that Canucks fans must show solidarity and never observe the fact that not all divisions in the NHL are created equal? That, over the last few years, the quality of competition in the Atlantic/Central/Pacific has been different than that of the Northwest/Southeast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Because it's a meaningless statement. The NW division wasn't a great deal better in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010. Yet the Canucks finished 3rd in the conference during those years. Yet this argument didn't surface. But now that they are winning PTs, the relative weakness of the division is highlighted? Why? It's a disingenuous argument.

It's no wonder fans choose to confront the misconception.
You're right, it wasn't great then either, and then it also played into Vancouver's favour. I'm pretty sure people have been talking about the state of the Northwest for quite awhile. I don't see anything disingenuous about what I've said. Nor do I see a misconception.

EDIT - Furthermore, I think people made the same statement about the Southeast when Washington won, which I said myself in my earlier post. A bad division can be a big help for getting that #1 spot.

The source of the disagreement regarding the advantage of playing in a weaker division is this - I am approaching the scenario from a standpoint of relative neutrality, and reporting what I see in the numbers, and on the ice. You have already formed your conclusion, and you are looking for thoughts to support your perspective and ignoring the others. Funny thing is, that's a pretty great example of 'disingenuous'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProstheticConscience View Post
Could it possibly be that the NW was so crappy outside Vancouver was partly because they had to play Vancouver 6 times a year? And we get defensive because 90% of the time that the "weak division" argument comes up it's raised by someone who can't be bothered to look at their record against other divisions.
Actually I did address their division record compared to their records against other divisions already. Should be back a page or two. Their division record is substantially better than elsewhere in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
The Canucks got better between 09-10 and 10-11. Doesn't mean the weak division wasn't helping them before. How is it disingenuous? You don't think playing in a crappy division makes it easier to pick up wins?
Thank-you.

To bring this back on point - the Chicago and Boston matchups last year, and Los Angeles this year, indicated not only that there are great teams in other divisions, but also that a roster geared for playoff success looks a little different from Vancouver's current personality. You can never be too big, skilled, physical, durable, and deep.


Last edited by kurt: 09-10-2012 at 01:13 AM.
kurt is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 01:07 AM
  #371
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
The Canucks got better between 09-10 and 10-11. Doesn't mean the weak division wasn't helping them before. How is it disingenuous? You don't think playing in a crappy division makes it easier to pick up wins?



I'm saying that pushing that as an argument now, as opposed to back then, is disingenuous. Now the Canucks have the two PTs, so now this caveat gets thrown out ad nauseum. Not before. Why not before? The NW division was still comparatively weak.



What people should be highlighting, is what you've already said: The Canucks got better. They played roughly the same field of talent within their division, and got better at beating that talent. Hence, more points.



If it was "helping them" prior to 2010-2011, where are the President's Trophies for those years? Why didn't Boston win the PT with a better divisional record this year? Or Chicago with a similar divisional record themselves? Were their great divisional records not "helping" them? When you actually break down team records vs. divisions, Vancouver's is not the outlier. They are not the best. Yet it's proclaimed as their crutch because people can't be bothered to do their homework before propagating a misconception. It's easier to just parrot what is already being said.



The Canucks are good... it's why they win.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 01:12 AM
  #372
kurt
the last emperor
 
kurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,563
vCash: 500
Bleach Clean - what's up with your paragraphs?

kurt is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 01:37 AM
  #373
ProstheticConscience
Kunst
 
ProstheticConscience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canuck Nation
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,738
vCash: 500
Ah hell with it.

Just remembered this is supposed to be about Luongo. Screw it.

ProstheticConscience is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 01:41 AM
  #374
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt View Post
Is there a forum rule somewhere that Canucks fans must show solidarity and never observe the fact that not all divisions in the NHL are created equal? That, over the last few years, the quality of competition in the Atlantic/Central/Pacific has been different than that of the Northwest/Southeast?

Oh so now you're relating the NW to the SE. LOL. Should have quit with your first dubious analysis... Rather than completely attack this second fallacy. I'll just post this third party snap-shot:

http://viewfrommyseats.com/2009/12/w...on-in-the-nhl/


In it, the writer acknowledges the weakness of the SE, while admitting to underestimating the NW. Here's a quote:


"I never would have thought this, but if you look at the raw stats, you could make a strong case that the Northwest is the best division in hockey right now. "



Quote:
You're right, it wasn't great then either, and then it also played into Vancouver's favour. I'm pretty sure people have been talking about the state of the Northwest for quite awhile. I don't see anything disingenuous about what I've said. Nor do I see a misconception.

EDIT - Furthermore, I think people made the same statement about the Southeast when Washington won, which I said myself in my earlier post. A bad division can be a big help for getting that #1 spot.


You don't see it because you don't want to see it... See how that goes?



Why do you think people made the statement about a weak division _after_ WSH won the PT? Why was it being pushed at that point and not before?



Quote:
The source of the disagreement regarding the advantage of playing in a weaker division is this - I am approaching the scenario from a standpoint of relative neutrality, and reporting what I see in the numbers, and on the ice. You have already formed your conclusion, and you are looking for thoughts to support your perspective and ignoring the others. Funny thing is, that's a pretty great example of 'disingenuous'.


Relative neutrality? So are you telling Boston fans their team is being propped up by a weak division? Or how about Chicago fans? If so, please link. If not, then that should tell everyone what they need to know about your stance and its "neutrality".



Quote:
Actually I did address their division record compared to their records against other divisions already. Should be back a page or two. Their division record is substantially better than elsewhere in the league.

Except in the case of Boston. And Chicago. And while we're on the topic. Define "substantially".



Quote:
Thank-you.

To bring this back on point - the Chicago and Boston matchups last year, and Los Angeles this year, indicated not only that there are great teams in other divisions, but also that a roster geared for playoff success looks a little different from Vancouver's current personality. You can never be too big, skilled, physical, durable, and deep.


Neutrality indeed.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
09-10-2012, 02:17 AM
  #375
spiny norman
Global Moderator
Dinsdale !!!
 
spiny norman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,604
vCash: 500
Since there doesn't seem to be any more discussion of Luongo going to Florida, I think we're done here.

Closed.

spiny norman is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.