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John Madden joins scouting staff

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Old
09-07-2012, 10:27 AM
  #76
Andy
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
I like the hire. As Trevor Timmins said to me the other day...why not hire one of the best college free agents ever to recruit prospective college free agents?

That used to be one of TT's many jobs...now someone can scout those FA's on a more regular basis, and talk to them more frequently. No one should be perturbed that Molson and co. are opening the purse strings more liberally after PG's skeleton scouting/recruiting/development staff..not like they don't have the money/profits.
I understand the hire. I like the intention. I get why they chose Madden. I have no problem with hiring more staff. I'm not assuming Madden sucks at the job. I even said I like the hire, but I can't sit here and pretend that he will be excellent when there is nothing tangible to judge him by yet. The same way I didn't like Pierre McGuire as a GM candidate...no experience, nothing tangible to judge him by. I don't think being a good hockey player automatically qualifies you as having a good post playing career. Saying he will be excellent is just all guess work at this point.

I remember people saying that about Gretzky as a coach, they used to say "Imagine the best offensive player of all time teaching and grooming offensive players." It's not scouting, but it was a similar judgement. We assumed his playing talents would translate into his post playing job.

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09-07-2012, 10:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
and yet someone has to go back and read that I wrote that you are just speculating and assuming that Madden will have those skills transferred over.

Again, like I said, there's nothing to guarentee that Madden will be excellent. Many great players with apparearntly relevant skills have failed before in management positions. This is just a leap of faith on your part. It has nothing to do with the arts or mathematics, rather, it has to do with speculation, assumptions and conjecture on your part.

As for repeating my argument, I will repeat it until you come up with something more tangible than...Madden had good skills and traits as a player, therefore, I assume he will be an excellent scout. It's only natural I will repeat my argument as it was developed in a view to your original assumptions, which have not changed and to which you have brought nothing new.

Are all late bloomers and hard working players going to be great scouts? Is that the secret? Should we go out and hire Michael Ryder next? Maybe Mathieu Darche can be part of the team as well.

Here's a fact. Madden has 0 years of amateur scout experience. Let's see what he can do at his position now.
Wow, still zero comprehension in the reading...

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09-07-2012, 11:01 AM
  #78
Andy
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Wow, still zero comprehension in the reading...
Wow, still zero in regards to your argument, just guess work, assumption and speculation.

You really are drinking the Bergevin Kool-aid there. Funny you being on the other side now.

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09-07-2012, 11:12 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post

I remember people saying that about Gretzky as a coach, they used to say "Imagine the best offensive player of all time teaching and grooming offensive players." It's not scouting, but it was a similar judgement. We assumed his playing talents would translate into his post playing job.
Yes, the famous "people said that... And they were wrong"... What fantastic grounds to build an argument around

oh I see, bc some people made faulty assumptions with tenuous connections/logic in one case, it's a better assumption to make that any argument appearing similar in your mind (ignoring the failure in understanding what was actually said) must therefore also be faulty... That's unshakable logic at work right there!

ThAt said, in the Gretzky case, A. His "failure" as a coach is greatly overstated, largely bc of the uninformed expectations average fans had about him given how great of a player he was... Not the first rookie coach to struggle, including guys with years and years of experience coaching.

But I bet you many people with k owl edge of elite sports who knew enough about gretzky e player (obssesive as he was in his analytical approach to understanding the game, to the point of making it appear "natural" to the casual observer), accurately predicted that he would venture into coaching... Same people would easily have understood why Lemieux, an equally (close enough) great player would never venture down the same road ( surprise surprise, a guy with tremendous natural gifts who didn't get serious about perfecting his craft through diligent work until injuries/age/cancer "woke him up" isn't a likely or ideal candidate for a coaching job).

Hard to understand these things with no relevant experience, yet you present arguments with the conviction of someone who actually does... Do you also tell your doctor/lawyer/mechanic about the personal logic that trumps their knowledge and experience?

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09-07-2012, 11:19 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Wow, still zero in regards to your argument, just guess work, assumption and speculation.

You really are drinking the Bergevin Kool-aid there. Funny you being on the other side now.
No, it's called direct and continuing experience in the same field....

Though I do appreciate that you are admitting that you were drinking the Gauthier/gained kook aid. Sorry though, while you may have realized the mistake of clinging to the blinders with them, doesn't mean that others are by default just as likely to mistakenly build up opinions on such flawed grounds.


I like the moves MB has made so far, but so far is a few months with zero pressure... It's what he does when things go wrong, and/or how well his Vision pans out that will determine his success, not fan opinion at this stage.

I took the same approach to Gauthier whenhe was promoted, defending some of his early moves either bc I agreed with them/saw the rational, or bc I realized that gained had left him in a crummy situation to work from. The main difference of course being that he had a hand in the mess he inherited, and while none of us know for sure to what extent, MB comes in with no "dirt on his hands".

Gauthier cemented his failure with how poorly he dealt with last seasons struggles, adding yet another failure to his resume... But I guess you'd still call him a good hire for the hawks scouting department bc hey, he's got experience (lucky for us, madden doesn't have the type of "pro scout for a team that added Scott freaking Gomez" on his resume, hopefully he never gets that kind of "experience")

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09-07-2012, 11:31 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
No one should be perturbed that Molson and co. are opening the purse strings more liberally after PG's skeleton scouting/recruiting/development staff..not like they don't have the money/profits.
The NHLPA's first proposal included a cap for non-player personnel, but we haven't heard anything about that since. I wonder if there is a possibility that off-ice cap makes it into the final CBA?

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09-07-2012, 12:30 PM
  #82
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The NHLPA's first proposal included a cap for non-player personnel, but we haven't heard anything about that since. I wonder if there is a possibility that off-ice cap makes it into the final CBA?
Its a stupid proposal and likely just a negotiating peice, something the PA can give up for something else. Like the NHL proposed league-controlled mandate on re-alignment and similar issues.

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09-07-2012, 12:59 PM
  #83
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Its a stupid proposal and likely just a negotiating peice, something the PA can give up for something else. Like the NHL proposed league-controlled mandate on re-alignment and similar issues.
Is it in the owners' interest to fight that particular element of the proposal? If owners keep scaling back the players' share, why wouldn't they want to cap salaries for managers, coaches and scouts?

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09-07-2012, 01:34 PM
  #84
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What is surprise me most is not this signing... It's all of them in a sense that why now and not before ?.. How come the last organization thought they could be successful with half the staff Bergevin is putting in place ?... Or maybe Bergevin is building one of the biggest staff of the NHL ??... I don't know

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09-07-2012, 02:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Habs4thewin View Post
What is surprise me most is not this signing... It's all of them in a sense that why now and not before ?.. How come the last organization thought they could be successful with half the staff Bergevin is putting in place ?... Or maybe Bergevin is building one of the biggest staff of the NHL ??... I don't know
I've thought it curious for a while now. While Molson gained by respect for a few things he's done since taking over, the responsibility falls on him with regards to our gutted personnel. The guy signing the cheques knows more than anyone how many people are under his employment.

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09-09-2012, 12:16 AM
  #86
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Geez guys. This is geting bad, we need some games. I love the blanket scouting direction MB and Geoff are instituting and this is a worthy thread, but we've just spent 4 pages on one scout hiring. I love this board.

We're gonna go nuts if the season doesn't start by November.

I'm waiting until the 15th, and if there's a lockout, I switch to Dogs Watch, and I'll pay Overlords for my daily fix.

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09-09-2012, 08:01 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Habs4thewin View Post
What is surprise me most is not this signing... It's all of them in a sense that why now and not before ?.. How come the last organization thought they could be successful with half the staff Bergevin is putting in place ?... Or maybe Bergevin is building one of the biggest staff of the NHL ??... I don't know
'Cause wasn't it clear enough that mainly Gauthier was a control freak and that as an owner you do have to trust your people in place knows what they're doing? I mean, when a guy who has no idea who the prospects are insist that he's the only guy talking at draft day....that's pretty clear to me. You do also see that Gainey seemed to be somehow the same type of guy though surely a little less control freak.....

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09-09-2012, 09:00 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I understand the hire. I like the intention. I get why they chose Madden. I have no problem with hiring more staff. I'm not assuming Madden sucks at the job. I even said I like the hire, but I can't sit here and pretend that he will be excellent when there is nothing tangible to judge him by yet. The same way I didn't like Pierre McGuire as a GM candidate...no experience, nothing tangible to judge him by. I don't think being a good hockey player automatically qualifies you as having a good post playing career. Saying he will be excellent is just all guess work at this point.

I remember people saying that about Gretzky as a coach, they used to say "Imagine the best offensive player of all time teaching and grooming offensive players." It's not scouting, but it was a similar judgement. We assumed his playing talents would translate into his post playing job.
I agree with your point in general, but the key difference here is that Madden, presumably, understands the NCAA game a whole lot better than most former players (even former NCAA players) since he went through the entire four years there. He also likely has more contacts, which are instrumental for scouts at that level.

Even if he winds up being a poor to average talent evaluator, his contacts and regular presence beats a good talent evaluator. Theoretically, Timmins could scout X player for a couple of games, realise he's a good talent, dispatch a regional amateur scout + Madden to confirm his evaluation, then have Madden follow up to close the deal, so to speak.

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09-09-2012, 10:04 AM
  #89
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I agree with your point in general, but the key difference here is that Madden, presumably, understands the NCAA game a whole lot better than most former players (even former NCAA players) since he went through the entire four years there. He also likely has more contacts, which are instrumental for scouts at that level.

Even if he winds up being a poor to average talent evaluator, his contacts and regular presence beats a good talent evaluator. Theoretically, Timmins could scout X player for a couple of games, realise he's a good talent, dispatch a regional amateur scout + Madden to confirm his evaluation, then have Madden follow up to close the deal, so to speak.
Exactly.

Or if Madden is pimping up one player in particular, the organization dispatches Timmins to go watch some games for the "final stamp" of approval on any deal. Anyone in here dismissing Madden would surely approve any signing that has the blessing of Timmins?

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09-09-2012, 10:49 AM
  #90
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Exactly.

Or if Madden is pimping up one player in particular, the organization dispatches Timmins to go watch some games for the "final stamp" of approval on any deal. Anyone in here dismissing Madden would surely approve any signing that has the blessing of Timmins?
Also, you can send your other amateur scouts to see the games. Every scouts "favorite" players should be cross scouted by multiple scouts to have a better opinion.

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09-09-2012, 12:16 PM
  #91
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Can't see why this isn't a unanimous thumbs up. Habs are razor thin in talent, the future lies in talent recruiting and development, Bergevin is putting more eyes out into the field, the man in question came from a top organization with a long history of winning and developing players that are hard to play against. Winds of change...

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09-09-2012, 05:26 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Can't see why this isn't a unanimous thumbs up. Habs are razor thin in talent, the future lies in talent recruiting and development, Bergevin is putting more eyes out into the field, the man in question came from a top organization with a long history of winning and developing players that are hard to play against. Winds of change...
I'm not certain the Hawks' recent success constitutes a long history of winning.

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09-10-2012, 05:45 AM
  #93
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I'm not certain the Hawks' recent success constitutes a long history of winning.
Clearly Madden is best associated with the NJ Devils.

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09-10-2012, 07:37 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I understand the hire. I like the intention. I get why they chose Madden. I have no problem with hiring more staff. I'm not assuming Madden sucks at the job. I even said I like the hire, but I can't sit here and pretend that he will be excellent when there is nothing tangible to judge him by yet. The same way I didn't like Pierre McGuire as a GM candidate...no experience, nothing tangible to judge him by. I don't think being a good hockey player automatically qualifies you as having a good post playing career. Saying he will be excellent is just all guess work at this point.

I remember people saying that about Gretzky as a coach, they used to say "Imagine the best offensive player of all time teaching and grooming offensive players." It's not scouting, but it was a similar judgement. We assumed his playing talents would translate into his post playing job.
Rather obtuse to compare the hiring of a famous head coach with the hiring of a college recruiter. You are comparing apples to pomegranates. Moreover - I think Gretzky's failure to succeed in coaching had more to do with a lack of talent more than anything else. He was forced to play young talents like Turris and Boedker well before they were ready because he had no other choice. there were bound to be growing pains..but look what happened this past spring.....that young talent was a major reason the club did so well..they were finally ready to contribute. You don't think Grettzky had something to do with that? People can have short memories. It's kinda like blaming Obama for all of the economic problems when it was left in a mess by the previous regime.

Regardless - it is irrelevant as the comparison makes no sense. Coaching an NHL team is completely different from recruiting college players.

The main job of Madden will be to woo prospective FA's...most teams will know who the main free agents are...the trick is in convincing them to join your club. Better to have a former college FA who went on to a highly successful NHL career who is well known by American teenagers versus a head scout who never played the game . Who do you think a young american hockey player would look up to more?

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09-10-2012, 11:22 AM
  #95
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Clearly Madden is best associated with the NJ Devils.
My apologies. I overlooked "the man in question," and thought you were referring to Bergevin's time spent in the Hawks' front office.

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09-10-2012, 11:46 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
The main job of Madden will be to woo prospective FA's...most teams will know who the main free agents are...the trick is in convincing them to join your club. Better to have a former college FA who went on to a highly successful NHL career who is well known by American teenagers versus a head scout who never played the game . Who do you think a young american hockey player would look up to more?
So we're counting less on Madden's actual scouting ability and more on his convincing abilities?

It still comes back to what I said earlier, we still don't know Madden's scouting capabilities.

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Old
09-10-2012, 02:14 PM
  #97
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Maybe he can recruit some real 3rd and 4th line centers. Not these 7th defensemen and washed out fringe NHLers

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09-10-2012, 11:20 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Can't see why this isn't a unanimous thumbs up. Habs are razor thin in talent, the future lies in talent recruiting and development, Bergevin is putting more eyes out into the field, the man in question came from a top organization with a long history of winning and developing players that are hard to play against. Winds of change...
bc some people feel smart or interesting by going "against the grain", even if their made up arguments amount to nothing more than " the future is unknown" rhetoric.

Hiring madden as a scout, for many obvious and not-so-obvious reasons (elaborated at length above) was a great decision.

We'll see how the decision plays out, he may wind up being the worst scout the league has ever seen or the best, or anything in between... But at this point, very difficult to question or doubt that hire. MB seems, much more so than his predecessors, to understand what kind of decision making leads to success. Only a fool thinks that's the same as "guaranteed" success.

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