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Brandon Sutter; Linemates and potential offensively

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Old
09-10-2012, 10:48 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That is mostly true. There are a decent share of big name guys next year (guys we've talked about a lot during trade season etc), but it's almost always the case the big guns get signed before you ever have a shot at them, including at the deadline. The list will be shorter next June. Although if there's a lockout, maybe not in this particular case. I don't think players can be re-inked when there's no CBA, right?
That is correct.


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09-10-2012, 11:21 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That is mostly true. There are a decent share of big name guys next year (guys we've talked about a lot during trade season etc), but it's almost always the case the big guns get signed before you ever have a shot at them, including at the deadline. The list will be shorter next June. Although if there's a lockout, maybe not in this particular case. I don't think players can be re-inked when there's no CBA, right?
That's true in terms of the lock out. Still, it's not like Ray Shero knew that when he decided to trade Staal. I hated losing Staal, but it was a damn good deal under the circumstances and I'm not convinced we are any less of a contender this year as last. If we have a real season, Shero will make a move to bring in a winger and defensive depth if needed.

On the flip side, I am genuinely excited to see what Staal can do in a prominent offensive role for the Canes.

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09-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #78
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I get that Staal forced the trade, but our lineup got worse for next year and that's typically how I like to look at deals. Does this trade help us win a Stanley Cup next season? It doesn't...and neither does the Michalek deal.
With you on the Michalek deal- although it was probably perceived by management that ZM wasn't a good fit for the Pens "style" of play and may not have been the best fit culturally in the lockeroom. (Which I think you can take or leave either point). But still, they traded away a top 4 defenseman and haven't replaced him, that can't be considered a good thing.

Regarding the Staal trade, it is a step back if you look at just 1 year, no doubt the Pens lineup is less likely to win a Cup now. But it's probably a wise move, in terms of asset management, to get control of Sutter for the next 3-4 years PLUS add a top 10 pick PLUS add a Hobey Baker finalist...

Better to be a very good team for a longer amount of time than just try to load up and keep Staal for one more run and watch him walk for nothing. Especially if, worst case scenario, the lockout wipes out the year, no changes to UFA are made and Staal walks without even getting the 1 more shot at the Cup. That would be a disaster. At least Shero has covered bases by trading Staal for a very good 3C + 2 very good prospect chips that may/may not be of help to the team down the line.

The Staal deal makes a lot more sense for a contender than the Michalek. If anything, Staal had such a limited window of teams he'd consider extending with, Shero was lucky to pull back 3 solid assets in return for him. I think he should be commended for recognize Staal wasn't staying with Pittsburgh past next season and pulling the trigger at the right time to maximize the return.

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09-10-2012, 11:54 AM
  #79
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Based on what he has already done, the increased PP time he will get in Pgh (2nd unit) and that he has not hit his peak as of yet, Sutter is capable of scoring 40-50 points in the 3rd line role. Given that Staal never scored 50 points as a majority 3rd line player, I'm not convinced that we are losing a whole lot with Staal gone. If Sutter can put together a 20-goal and 45-point season while performing a shutdown role, there will be very little to complain about in terms of the trade. Perhaps the complaints will begin to accumulate from the Canes' end?

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09-10-2012, 12:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by andyg26 View Post
Haven't talked a ton about Sutter since the trade but I'm really intrigued about the possibility of him developing here. On the Canes board, fans love the guy and their fans always claim that he never got chances to thrive offensively. Interestingly enough, some Canes fans even suggest that he could be a high quality winger due to his speed and ability to use his size along the boards.

Where do you think he fits in short/long term with this team? Does he have 1st PP potential? Is it possible that he could fill a role in the top 6 on the wing?

Just curious to hear everyone's thoughts. Obviously, most people will suggest he's a third line center but I'm intrigued by the possibility of him taking spot shifts with Sid/Geno or possibly getting some PP time. It seems like the tools are there but the opportunity hasn't been. Interested to hear everyone else's thoughts!

Cooke is going to be a staple on his line. They will have very difficult assignments with a high % of defensive zone starts. Do not expect much production out of him because his competition will become tougher and he will not have a ton of scoring talent on his wing. His other winger will probably be Jeffrey (and maybe rotating) IMO as he is the best available defensive forward for a 3rd line spot. They will do well just nullifying other team's top lines by making them play in the D zone (like Staal did).

Decent PP potential (around 3-4 pts/60min 5v4 time) - around Kunitz level - and better than Staal. #2 PP with our long term roster of Malkin, Crosby, Neal.

TK will finally be promoted (deservedly) to a top 6 position with Crosby so I do not think he will skate much with Sutter. TK would be a huge improvement to Sutter's point totals. Tangradi is not good enough or defensively responsible enough to skate on our 3rd line (against #1-#2 lines). Bylsma may experiment with him here, but I would be surprised with good results.

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09-10-2012, 12:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
Based on what he has already done, the increased PP time he will get in Pgh (2nd unit) and that he has not hit his peak as of yet, Sutter is capable of scoring 40-50 points in the 3rd line role. Given that Staal never scored 50 points as a majority 3rd line player, I'm not convinced that we are losing a whole lot with Staal gone. If Sutter can put together a 20-goal and 45-point season while performing a shutdown role, there will be very little to complain about in terms of the trade. Perhaps the complaints will begin to accumulate from the Canes' end?
I think our biggest loss will be if we do have an injury to Sid or Geno. Staal is just a better fit to step up. In a third line role though, I honestly don't think we'll see a huge drop-off.

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09-10-2012, 12:44 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by wgknestrick View Post
Cooke is going to be a staple on his line. They will have very difficult assignments with a high % of defensive zone starts. Do not expect much production out of him because his competition will become tougher and he will not have a ton of scoring talent on his wing. His other winger will probably be Jeffrey (and maybe rotating) IMO as he is the best available defensive forward for a 3rd line spot. They will do well just nullifying other team's top lines by making them play in the D zone (like Staal did).

Decent PP potential (around 3-4 pts/60min 5v4 time) - around Kunitz level - and better than Staal. #2 PP with our long term roster of Malkin, Crosby, Neal.

TK will finally be promoted (deservedly) to a top 6 position with Crosby so I do not think he will skate much with Sutter. TK would be a huge improvement to Sutter's point totals. Tangradi is not good enough or defensively responsible enough to skate on our 3rd line (against #1-#2 lines). Bylsma may experiment with him here, but I would be surprised with good results.
I really think Tangradi gets the top 6 spot and TK stays on the third. TK being a better fit on the third line than Tangradi is a part of the reason for that.

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09-10-2012, 12:59 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I think our biggest loss will be if we do have an injury to Sid or Geno. Staal is just a better fit to step up.
Sure, but we can't construct our team based on fear of injury. There simply isn't enough cap space to manage a team that way (well, normally anyway). If having a spare elite center is really a major concern, the Pens could have drafted Grigorenko, but instead we addressed a far greater concern - offensive d-man depth.

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09-10-2012, 01:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I really think Tangradi gets the top 6 spot and TK stays on the third. TK being a better fit on the third line than Tangradi is a part of the reason for that.
Sorry, but that reminds me of the logic people were using to try to make Malkin a winger for Staal. Let's just let the best players play in the best positions for now. Leave the utilitarian stuff to the Quaker leagues.

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09-10-2012, 01:02 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
Sure, but we can't construct our team based on fear of injury. There simply isn't enough cap space to manage a team that way (well, normally anyway). If having a spare elite center is really a major concern, the Pens could have drafted Grigorenko, but instead we addressed a far greater concern - offensive d-man depth.
Ya, I agree. I was actually agreeing with you.

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09-10-2012, 01:05 PM
  #86
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Sorry, but that reminds me of the logic people were using to try to make Malkin a winger for Staal. Let's just let the best players play in the best positions for now. Leave the utilitarian stuff to the Quaker leagues.
I also think the top 6 will be straight up better with Tangradi than it would be with TK. Not day one or even month one. But by the time the playoffs roll around Tangradi with a year of experience at the position will be a better top 6 winger than TK. TK being a better fit on the third line is just bonus incentive for that setup.

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09-10-2012, 01:09 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
So Sutter gets in the top 6 and Jeffrey plays 3C? That's the best player we have for the spot. Staal should have been there for years too.

Really though, I think we are a better team with Tangradi in the top 6 and TK on the third line than we would be with them switched.
Well, you got me there, but I'm open-minded to the former. Quite close-minded to the latter.

Edit: same answer to the edit.

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09-10-2012, 01:11 PM
  #88
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Part of my thinking is TK being pretty much a finished product as well. I think TK with about a week of experience with Sid will be pretty much the same as TK with a full season of experience with Sid. So if Tangradi doesn't work out there TK will always be available to plug in.

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09-10-2012, 01:19 PM
  #89
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It's amazing how one more top 6 winger would even out this team perfectly. For Sutter, I wouldn't mind pairing him up with Cooke and Tangradi. That would be a tough line to play against it seems.

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09-10-2012, 01:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sh00terMcGavin View Post
It's amazing how one more top 6 winger would even out this team perfectly. For Sutter, I wouldn't mind pairing him up with Cooke and Tangradi. That would be a tough line to play against it seems.
Tangradi would be horribly mis-cast on a defense first line. I really think playing him with Sutter on a shutdown line would be setting him up for failure. He'd have been a nice fit with Staal's recent version of the third line.

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09-10-2012, 01:26 PM
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Yeah it should be Cooke - Sutter - Kennedy (or more ideally Duper but I'd rather he than Kennedy be with Sid.

The hole as I see it as on Malkin's left wing. Tangradi will earn that spot in camp or so I hope and will battle through the growing pains.

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09-10-2012, 01:29 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Tangradi would be horribly mis-cast on a defense first line. I really think playing him with Sutter on a shutdown line would be setting him up for failure. He'd have been a nice fit with Staal's recent version of the third line.
That's a fair point. My only problem is that I'm trying to avoid putting Tangradi in the top 6.

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09-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #93
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Sid's RW is more important than Geno's LW. Tangradi can fill in as a third wheel, but Sid needs a legitimate upgrade on his line. Time to build around the two best players in the game.

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09-10-2012, 01:36 PM
  #94
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That's a fair point. My only problem is that I'm trying to avoid putting Tangradi in the top 6.
I still have to ask why. If he doesn't work out there, TK will be able to step into the spot at pretty much any point of the season and be just as mediocre as he would have been had he started the year there. Tangradi will likely start off a bit shakier, but he actually has a chance to turn into a good top 6 forward. We have to actually give him a chance to develop.

I just can't understand how people can complain about our lack of a top 6 winger and then turn around and be against the idea of giving our potential top 6 winger a chance to develop. It makes no sense to me.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-10-2012 at 01:43 PM.
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09-10-2012, 01:47 PM
  #95
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Sid's RW is more important than Geno's LW. Tangradi can fill in as a third wheel, but Sid needs a legitimate upgrade on his line. Time to build around the two best players in the game.
I meant that's where the opening is at in camp. If Tangradi proves he can fill that spot then sure Sid's right wing is the priority. However, as it stands we likely have:

Kunitz-Sid-Duper
open-Malkin-Neal

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09-10-2012, 03:13 PM
  #96
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I meant that's where the opening is at in camp. If Tangradi proves he can fill that spot then sure Sid's right wing is the priority. However, as it stands we likely have:

Kunitz-Sid-Duper
open-Malkin-Neal
This is what I was upset about earlier. How did we deal away Staal and Michalek and not address our two vacant winger spots in the top 6? Yeah...I'm including Dupuis in there and that's me being a jerk. He's a great player but you don't put wooden tires on a sports car. I'm cool with Dupuis as a fill-in for an injury or if DB wants to mix things up for a bit, but penciling him in to the top line going into training camp stinks.

But don't worry...we have a million great defensive prospects in the pipeline. Holy lord, trade some of these guys now for insta-help. I don't want to be the team that has the best depth at prospect defensemen. I want to win in the playoffs. It's like a god damn episode of Hoarders. Pick one or two of the defensive prospects you can't live without and make it known the rest are available.

Sorry that I'm crotchety...blame the looming lockout.

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09-10-2012, 03:23 PM
  #97
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This is what I was upset about earlier. How did we deal away Staal and Michalek and not address our two vacant winger spots in the top 6? Yeah...I'm including Dupuis in there and that's me being a jerk. He's a great player but you don't put wooden tires on a sports car. I'm cool with Dupuis as a fill-in for an injury or if DB wants to mix things up for a bit, but penciling him in to the top line going into training camp stinks.

But don't worry...we have a million great defensive prospects in the pipeline. Holy lord, trade some of these guys now for insta-help. I don't want to be the team that has the best depth at prospect defensemen. I want to win in the playoffs. It's like a god damn episode of Hoarders. Pick one or two of the defensive prospects you can't live without and make it known the rest are available.

Sorry that I'm crotchety...blame the looming lockout.
Great Post.

Rarely have I gotten frustrated with Shero but this offseason upset me. I don't blame Shero for not being able to get Parise, obviously, he didn't want to play here.

What upsets me, is the lack of a backup plan. You'd think after Hossa burned us, that he would have been more prepared this time around. We had the cap space and we have some nice assets (prospect wise). Even on the backend, we are a lesser team than last year. After Suter made it clear that he didn't want to play for us (essentially right away), we didn't seem to go to any back up options.

With Sutter as the 3LC, I don't think we will lose a ton... however, that was supposed to be gained and the team was supposed to be better by adding for the 1st time in his career, a long term winger for Sid. Not a complementary type (like a Kunitz or Dupuis) but a guy who can hold on to the puck, snipe or playmake and generally think the game as a go to option for a superstar center.

As far as trading the defensive prospects, it's gotten to a point where we literally have to start moving some of them. And to me, for the right winger, any of them should be available (even Morrow/Despres). This is a league where you have to be over agressive to get high end talent and unless they are can't miss prospects (which I personally don't think we have any of in our system), they should be available for the right deal.

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09-10-2012, 03:23 PM
  #98
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I think giving Martin a chance to rebound, Despres a full time spot and niskanen a shot as a #4 D-man is our best route. Imo they'll all have a damn good season and we'll have plenty of options via trade for a winger.

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09-10-2012, 03:34 PM
  #99
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We will go into this season with a better team than we went into last season with. We will need to make some moves to get to where we want to be for the playoffs. I think Shero was either going to go really big with Parise/Suter or play it safe due to the CBA questions. If the cap goes down we will be sitting pretty. If it doesn't, we will still be one of the top teams in the east.

As far as not filling out the top 6 with legit top 6 wingers, I don't know how any of you expected that to happen immediately after moving Staal. It is unreasonable to think we can completely redesign the team in one off-season. We aren't the only team who wants top 6 wings. They aren't readily available. We can't just pick them up whenever we need them. We currently have arguably the best top 6 in the league as is. We have the two best players in the world at center, we have one of the best goal scorers on one wing and a really good complimentary winger on another. We have a prospect who could become a good complimentary guy and we have a jack of all trades who can fill in admirably while we find an upgrade.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 09-10-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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09-10-2012, 03:41 PM
  #100
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We will go into this season with a better team than we went into last season with. We will need to make some moves to get to where we want to be for the playoffs, but I think Shero was either going to go really big with Parise/Suter or play it safe due to the CBA questions. If the cap goes down we will be sitting pretty. If it doesn't, we will still be one of the top teams in the east.

As far as not filling out the top 6 with guys, I don't know how any of you expected that to happen immediately after moving Staal. It is unreasonable to think we can completely redesign the team in one off-season.
How is adding a top 6 winger "completely re-designing the team"? I love Shero but he's not exempt of criticism.

And I don't see how we are a better team going into this season than we were last year... unless you were expecting Sid to never come back in play. We essentially lost Staal and Michalek and gained Sutter, a 4th liner in Glass (and we are hoping that Despres can fill in for Michalek). Anyway you slice I don't see how this is a "better" team than the one that started last year."

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