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Old
09-06-2012, 10:33 AM
  #101
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Parise, Crosby, Giroux? LOL, Vanek isn't on the same level as those guys, of course he isn't. Try these names:

Ryan, Nash, Penner(Playoffs), Carter, Gaborik, Kovalchuk, Jagr (now, not prime).

We lack a Parise, Crosby, Giroux, Malkin type player. So do most teams.

Vanek is not even on the same level as players like Ryan, Carter... .

he's not even remotely close to the offensive talent of Kovalchuk...

Again... people make comparisons based on points scored, not on ice play... unfortunately.

On the ice, Vanek is comparable to Olli Jokinen...


Quote:
My point is simple:

Vanek isn't to blame for our lack of success over the last few years, we've been the Flames of the EC until last season and that was an absurd disappointment.
Vanek is one of the best (top 10-15%) goalscoring forwards in the game today, but his not a miracle worker and not good enough to carry a team that lack a tenacity (Kaleta couldn't do it all). He is an important part of our team though.
There were 101 forwards who scored 20 or more goals last year...
10-15% would mean that you think Vanek is one of the 10-15 best goal scorers in the NHL.

Unfortunately for you... Vanek was 45th in goals. So he's in the top 45%

Get a clue... Vanek is a mid range goal scorer. His goal scoring was on par with Joffrey Lupol and Chris Kunitz... not Kovalchuk and Gaborik who were actually in the top 10-15%

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09-06-2012, 10:34 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Who cares if he can skate this is hockey not figure skating, he gets the puck in the net it doesnt realy matter how.

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Old
09-06-2012, 10:44 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Vanek is not even on the same level as players like Ryan, Carter... .

he's not even remotely close to the offensive talent of Kovalchuk...

Again... people make comparisons based on points scored, not on ice play... unfortunately.

On the ice, Vanek is comparable to Olli Jokinen...




There were 101 forwards who scored 20 or more goals last year...
10-15% would mean that you think Vanek is one of the 10-15 best goal scorers in the NHL.

Unfortunately for you... Vanek was 45th in goals. So he's in the top 45%

Get a clue... Vanek is a mid range goal scorer. His goal scoring was on par with Joffrey Lupol and Chris Kunitz... not Kovalchuk and Gaborik who were actually in the top 10-15%
So you would prefer to have Lupol or Kunitz? I hope this was intentional to make a point that you did exactly what you said in the 1st bolded part about judging on points and not on ice play.

I agree with the the point that judging solely on points leaves so many other factors behind.

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09-06-2012, 10:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sabres Fan UK View Post
So you would prefer to have Lupol or Kunitz? I hope this was intentional to make a point that you did exactly what you said in the 1st bolded part about judging on points and not on ice play.

I agree with the the point that judging solely on points leaves so many other factors behind.
Yes it was on purpose

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09-06-2012, 10:51 AM
  #105
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No one has addressed the issue regarding vanek's 2 "big" goal scoring seasons.
1. As a 3rd line option NOT receiving top checking (behind brier/dru)
2. With an anomaly 20 PP goal season

Expecting vanek to come close to 40 is irrational based on the evidence

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09-06-2012, 11:14 AM
  #106
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Vanek can't skate now?

I don't know how many times he's blown past a defender 1 on 1 in his career primarily because he gets up to top speed in 2 strides, something only the top skaters in this league can do. I've been on the "move Vanek" bandwagon as long as anyone, but criticizing his skating because he has a goofy yet casual stride proves you don't know what you are talking about.

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09-06-2012, 11:18 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Vanek can't skate now?

I don't know how many times he's blown past a defender 1 on 1 in his career primarily because he gets up to top speed in 2 strides, something only the top skaters in this league can do. I've been on the "move Vanek" bandwagon as long as anyone, but criticizing his skating because he has a goofy yet casual stride proves you don't know what you are talking about.
Vanek is a bad skater in general. As far as first line offensive players go, he's terrible.

I know what I'm talking about

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Old
09-06-2012, 11:56 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Vanek is a bad skater in general. As far as first line offensive players go, he's terrible.

I know what I'm talking about
no you Dont. I think your Vanek obsession is getting pretty creepy, you must have fun trying to drill your agenda into everyone's head. Funny thing is, it don't mean jack **** because everything your saying is meaningless. When hockey starts back up, Vanek will be a Sabre, too bad!! you have 32/102 posts, too bad what your saying is false. You probably also believe Matt Ellis should take Vaneks spot right ?

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09-06-2012, 12:07 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
no you Dont. I think your Vanek obsession is getting pretty creepy, you must have fun trying to drill your agenda into everyone's head. Funny thing is, it don't mean jack **** because everything your saying is meaningless. When hockey starts back up, Vanek will be a Sabre, too bad!! you have 32/102 posts, too bad what your saying is false. You probably also believe Matt Ellis should take Vaneks spot right ?
everytime i am critical of the leaders and highest paid players on this team it's the fan boys who turn up crying "agenda", "bias", "obsession"...

nice attempt at the straw man there at the end... super lolz Freddie Duderoo


I dont have a problem with Vanek. I think he's a nice guy, and a solid player to have scoring goals on your roster.

What he's not :
- a franchise player
- worth 7 million per
- a 40 goal scorer
- a well rounded/complete player
- an above average skater
- a well conditioned athlete
- a passionate leader
- a physical presence

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09-06-2012, 12:14 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
everytime i am critical of the leaders and highest paid players on this team it's the fan boys who turn up crying "agenda", "bias", "obsession"...

nice attempt at the straw man there at the end... super lolz Freddie Duderoo


I dont have a problem with Vanek. I think he's a nice guy, and a solid player to have scoring goals on your roster.

What he's not :
- a franchise player
- worth 7 million per
- a 40 goal scorer
- a well rounded/complete player
- an above average skater
- a well conditioned athlete
- a passionate leader
- a physical presence
And the entire problem with the "what he's not" list is item #2. I think most, if not all of us could accept that list of things he's not and would still like having him on the team if #2 wasn't on there.

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Old
09-06-2012, 12:26 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
And the entire problem with the "what he's not" list is item #2. I think most, if not all of us could accept that list of things he's not and would still like having him on the team if #2 wasn't on there.
yes, but also if there wasn't a letter on his jersey...

I look at guys like Callahan and Franzen, and everything they bring to the game, and it just makes Vanek so displeasing as a core piece of this team.

When you look at 200 shot, 25-30 goal scoring wingers... Vanek's just not that appealing of a player to me ANYMORE... I look at that list, and I prefer the Andrew Ladd types.
(I was a huge Vanek defender... for years... just not anymore)

Vanek doesn't have the high end skill of the big offensive studs (people around here actually tried to compare him to Kovalchuk (wtf???)... If you don't have the elite, high end offensive package, then you damn well better bring something else to the table (callahan, franzen, ladd, etc)... and the simple fact is, Vanek doesn't bring anything else.

and while, it would be nice if he didn't have that absurd cap hit... a 1 dimensional non elite goal scorer isn't a key component to building a cup contender

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Old
09-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes, but also if there wasn't a letter on his jersey...

I look at guys like Callahan and Franzen, and everything they bring to the game, and it just makes Vanek so displeasing as a core piece of this team.

When you look at 200 shot, 25-30 goal scoring wingers... Vanek's just not that appealing of a player to me ANYMORE... I look at that list, and I prefer the Andrew Ladd types.
(I was a huge Vanek defender... for years... just not anymore)

Vanek doesn't have the high end skill of the big offensive studs (people around here actually tried to compare him to Kovalchuk (wtf???)... If you don't have the elite, high end offensive package, then you damn well better bring something else to the table (callahan, franzen, ladd, etc)... and the simple fact is, Vanek doesn't bring anything else.
Yeah, but when he was given one, there weren't really many other deserving players. There might be now with the youth movement going on, but at the time it made sense giving him one. I wouldn't have a problem taking it away and giving it to one of the kids, though.

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Old
09-07-2012, 04:39 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
No one has addressed the issue regarding vanek's 2 "big" goal scoring seasons.
1. As a 3rd line option NOT receiving top checking (behind brier/dru)
2. With an anomaly 20 PP goal season

Expecting vanek to come close to 40 is irrational based on the evidence
1. Who were the top two LW's then? Not being funny, just don't remember.
2. Stupid point. So because it's above the norm you discount it? That happened to be when we didn't completely rely on him only for PP. His an powerful force on the PP, and PP is an important part of the game.

I don't hope to change your opinion, and I'm not saying his a 40 goal scorer. I think his a good, hard working 30+ goal scorer who can be a little streaky on occasions but the good outweighs the bad. His not a defensive presence but his not a liability either.

A player like P.Kane in the middle or RW would give us a dangerous top line. As it is his being asked to carry an offense which lacks depth. THAT is the problem, not his play.

Can you at least agree the stat was interesting/surprising?

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Old
09-07-2012, 04:41 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes, but also if there wasn't a letter on his jersey...

I look at guys like Callahan and Franzen, and everything they bring to the game, and it just makes Vanek so displeasing as a core piece of this team.

When you look at 200 shot, 25-30 goal scoring wingers... Vanek's just not that appealing of a player to me ANYMORE... I look at that list, and I prefer the Andrew Ladd types.
(I was a huge Vanek defender... for years... just not anymore)

Vanek doesn't have the high end skill of the big offensive studs (people around here actually tried to compare him to Kovalchuk (wtf???)... If you don't have the elite, high end offensive package, then you damn well better bring something else to the table (callahan, franzen, ladd, etc)... and the simple fact is, Vanek doesn't bring anything else.

and while, it would be nice if he didn't have that absurd cap hit... a 1 dimensional non elite goal scorer isn't a key component to building a cup contender
Answer me this:

Why give Vanek a hard time when Stafford is still a core member of this team?

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09-07-2012, 08:38 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
1. Who were the top two LW's then? Not being funny, just don't remember.
2. Stupid point. So because it's above the norm you discount it? That happened to be when we didn't completely rely on him only for PP. His an powerful force on the PP, and PP is an important part of the game.

I don't hope to change your opinion, and I'm not saying his a 40 goal scorer. I think his a good, hard working 30+ goal scorer who can be a little streaky on occasions but the good outweighs the bad. His not a defensive presence but his not a liability either.

A player like P.Kane in the middle or RW would give us a dangerous top line. As it is his being asked to carry an offense which lacks depth. THAT is the problem, not his play.

Can you at least agree the stat was interesting/surprising?
1. the lines were :
Hecht-Briere-Pominville
Kotalik-Drury-Grier
Vanek-Roy-Afinogenov/Stafford

There was some variation... but no argument that the young Roy line got the easy minutes.

2. It's not "above the norm"... it's an anomaly. Do you know how many hockey players scored 20 PP goals in a season since Vanek did it... ONE.... ONCE in the last 3 years. (Stamkos). Since then Vanek has scored 10, 11, and 10 PP goals... NO WHERE close to 20. heck, only 6 players scored more then 15 PP goals in the last 3 years.

I don't know what stat I am supposed to think is interesting

Here's an interesting stat:
1. Vanek has scored less then 20 ES goals in 2 of the last 3 seasons (the other season he scored 21)
2. Vanek has not scored more then 11 PP goals in any of the last 3 seasons

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09-07-2012, 08:38 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Answer me this:

Why give Vanek a hard time when Stafford is still a core member of this team?
go start a Stafford thread

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Old
09-07-2012, 11:01 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
And the entire problem with the "what he's not" list is item #2. I think most, if not all of us could accept that list of things he's not and would still like having him on the team if #2 wasn't on there.
I think a team can get away with one or two one-trick-ponies. Particularly if the rest of the team is solid where the pony is not. If Buffalo was a fast, tough, workman-like team (like the teams in the late 1990's), Vanek's faults wouldn't be so hard to take. The 1999 Sabres had Satan, who scored but didn't fit into the team's overall identity.

And if his cap hit wasn't so high, I think fans would have an easier time with his weaknesses.

If Vanek resigns for less and is part of a young, physical, aggressive team, it's less of an issue.

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Old
09-10-2012, 01:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I think a team can get away with one or two one-trick-ponies. Particularly if the rest of the team is solid where the pony is not. If Buffalo was a fast, tough, workman-like team (like the teams in the late 1990's), Vanek's faults wouldn't be so hard to take. The 1999 Sabres had Satan, who scored but didn't fit into the team's overall identity.

And if his cap hit wasn't so high, I think fans would have an easier time with his weaknesses.

If Vanek resigns for less and is part of a young, physical, aggressive team, it's less of an issue.
You compare Vanek to Satan and then suggest he would re-sign for less? Remember when Satan's goal celebration was to pull out a cell phone, call his agent, and ask for more money?

Barring something drastic happening with the salary cap through the CBA, I can't imagine Vanek would take a pay cut.

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09-10-2012, 01:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
You compare Vanek to Satan and then suggest he would re-sign for less? Remember when Satan's goal celebration was to pull out a cell phone, call his agent, and ask for more money?

Barring something drastic happening with the salary cap through the CBA, I can't imagine Vanek would take a pay cut.
1st - Something drastic IS happening with the salary cap
2nd - I can't see anyone paying Vanek his current salary. He simply is not worth it.

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09-10-2012, 09:31 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
1st - Something drastic IS happening with the salary cap
2nd - I can't see anyone paying Vanek his current salary. He simply is not worth it.
If semin can get 7.5 vanek certainly can

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09-10-2012, 10:22 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
If semin can get 7.5 vanek certainly can
Vanek in Calary orange at 7.5+ a season seams reasonable. So if a ****** GM does it that means its his fair market value or that ****** GMs overpay players? Please reference Dennis Wideman's current contract. That ain't a 5 million dollar defenseman but an awful GM paid him anyway.

Not arguing your post just pointing out we shouldn't be matching offers just because it's Vanek. If somebody offers him 7.5 (and someone will) then it's probably time to move on.

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09-11-2012, 08:45 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
Vanek in Calary orange at 7.5+ a season seams reasonable. So if a ****** GM does it that means its his fair market value or that ****** GMs overpay players? Please reference Dennis Wideman's current contract. That ain't a 5 million dollar defenseman but an awful GM paid him anyway.

Not arguing your post just pointing out we shouldn't be matching offers just because it's Vanek. If somebody offers him 7.5 (and someone will) then it's probably time to move on.
What a GM is willing to pay him on the open market is by definition his fair market value.

Maybe you mean to say that great teams tend to pay very few players their market value and hold onto a lot of guys on bargain contracts.

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