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Old
09-10-2012, 04:25 PM
  #151
Missionhockey
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post


2007-08: 49pts
2008-09: 41 pts
2009-10: 41 pts
2010-11: 42 pts
2011-12: 47 pts

Consistently putting up 40+ points for 5 seasons on the worst team in the league and he's in "bust status"? But Henrique puts up 51 points centering Kovalchuk and Parise on the first line in his rookie season while being 1 year older than Gagner and you're already comparing him to Parise. AND on top of that, you think he should have won the Calder over Landeskog and RNH?

I sure hope you're joking because you sure made me laugh.

Gagner putting up 47 points with crappy line mates on the 2nd/3rd line will always look better to me then a rookie center putting up 4 more points playing with Kovalchuk and Parise on the first line, but that's just me.
You make very valid points. I don't disagree with you when it comes to Henrique because he could very easily be a flash in the pan, but Gagner was the 6th overall pick. He was one of the guys that they depended on to progress and pull them out of the basement. Last year he wasn't on an island by himself offensively and out of those 47 points, eight came in one freaking game! Gagner is a nice player, but statisically he has stagnated. Henrique has a better learning curve and the chance to put up more points even if it is more of a risk.

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09-10-2012, 04:27 PM
  #152
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Gagner isn't anywhere close to being a bust, that's silly talk

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09-10-2012, 04:45 PM
  #153
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Well I agree he's not a bust,

To all fans who don't watch the Devils, what line did Henrique play on in the playoffs and later stages of regular season? Ponikarovsky-Henrique- Clarkson AND HE STILL maintained his point total.

Just an example







Notice the assists Poni, Clarkson, Volchenkov. And the later stages of season were like that

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09-10-2012, 04:47 PM
  #154
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Henrique's point production slowed down considerably towards the end of the season if i remember correctly.

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09-10-2012, 04:48 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Henrique's point production slowed down considerably towards the end of the season if i remember correctly.
Yes and once he adjusted to Poni-Clarkson he was right back at it

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09-10-2012, 05:01 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Henrique's point production slowed down considerably towards the end of the season if i remember correctly.
While he was still on the top line, it seemed like the minutes were catching up to him.
He went through a pretty big pointless streak - but reduced minutes on the 3rd line helped bring him back to life as the season came to a close.

Although.. it also coincided with the brief period where the whole team seemed to be slumping and slowing down in production. I can't remember how many times the Devils got shutout/had a hard time scoring in the first half of March

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09-10-2012, 05:03 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Yes and once he adjusted to Poni-Clarkson he was right back at it
Henrique had some big goals in the playoffs, but he certainly didn't adjust to his previous scoring pace. 13pts in 24 games is about 44 over an 82 game season.

I love Henrique, but I agree that some of my fellow Devils fans overrate him. While I wouldn't trade him for that package, let's not go berserk because of some fortunately timed bounces in the playoffs.

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09-10-2012, 05:04 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Henrique had some big goals in the playoffs, but he certainly didn't adjust to his previous scoring pace. 13pts in 24 games is about 44 over an 82 game season.

I love Henrique, but I agree that some of my fellow Devils fans overrate him. While I wouldn't trade him for that package, let's not go berserk because of some fortunately timed bounces in the playoffs.
So he's on Sam Gagners level playing on the third line

But a goal is a goal. Clarkson had 30 goals off his head, legs, and other extremities. They still count

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09-10-2012, 05:06 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
So he's on Sam Gagners level playing on the third line

But a goal is a goal. Clarkson had 30 goals off his head, legs, and other extremities. They still count
They do, but I wouldn't forecast Henrique to have plenty of OT game winners in the future based off a flukey shot against Florida and pushing a puck in off a net mouth scramble against New York.

Super happy and excited all that happened, but I'm not anointing him as Mr. Clutch just yet.

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09-10-2012, 05:12 PM
  #160
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ya, Zajac being the superstar that he is...
Because Taylor Hall is really worth a 60+ point center with amazing defense and three additional pieces

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09-10-2012, 05:18 PM
  #161
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Because Taylor Hall is really worth a 60+ point center with amazing defense and three additional pieces
Hall is definitely worth more than Zajac at this point.

In a fantasy world, I overpay for Taylor Hall.
In reality, the pieces aren't there and Zajac is still a fantastic player to have on the team. It's not worth attempting the swap.

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09-10-2012, 05:39 PM
  #162
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You make very valid points. I don't disagree with you when it comes to Henrique because he could very easily be a flash in the pan, but Gagner was the 6th overall pick. He was one of the guys that they depended on to progress and pull them out of the basement. Last year he wasn't on an island by himself offensively and out of those 47 points, eight came in one freaking game! Gagner is a nice player, but statisically he has stagnated. Henrique has a better learning curve and the chance to put up more points even if it is more of a risk.
Nobody depended on Gagner to bring us out of the basement. He was brought in way earlier in his development because of our need for a 2nd line center and he did well. Have you seen the other picks in that draft?

1. Patrick Kane 399gp 369p
2. James van Riemsdyk 196GP, 99p
3. Kyle Turris 186gp 75p
4. Thomas Hickey 0gp 0p
5. Karl Alzner 215gp 39p
6. Sam Gagner 366gp 220p
7. Jakub Voracek 319gp 183p
8. Zach Hamill 20gp 4p

Yeah. Real bust there. I can totally see where you could jump to that conclusion.
Redo that draft and he goes 2nd overall.

You act like this 8 point game is some sort of detriment to his career? In what backwards-assed alternate universe is an 8 point game seen as a bad thing? You go on to say he's statistically stagnated, yet his statistics show that his point totals have increased from 10-11 to 11-12.

Did I mention that he's just 1 year older than Henrique? Judging by your logic Henrique therefore must be ready to hit his plateau this upcoming year, right? You talk as if Gagner is this old man. He's 23 for God's sake.

Only on HF boards is consistency and a proven track record seen as some sort of detriment, while Mr. Henrique who has one 51 point season is being lauded as the next Parise. That little unknown is being greatly exaggerated and extrapolated to twist into this ideal that Jersey fans hold him up to and somehow make it seem plausible that Henrique and his one mediocre 51 point rookie season playing on the top line between Kovalchuk and Parise is somehow worth more than Gagner's proven 5 year track record playing in a much more reduced capacity and with shoddier line mates to boot.

Someone please wake me up, because I just don't see any logic whatsoever in that. I take Gagner over Henrique 10 times out of 10.

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09-10-2012, 05:44 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nobody depended on Gagner to bring us out of the basement. He was brought in way earlier in his development because of our need for a 2nd line center and he did well. Have you seen the other picks in that draft?

1. Patrick Kane 399gp 369p
2. James van Riemsdyk 196GP, 99p
3. Kyle Turris 186gp 75p
4. Thomas Hickey 0gp 0p
5. Karl Alzner 215gp 39p
6. Sam Gagner 366gp 220p
7. Jakub Voracek 319gp 183p
8. Zach Hamill 20gp 4p

Yeah. Real bust there. I can totally see where you could jump to that conclusion.
Redo that draft and he goes 2nd overall.

You act like this 8 point game is some sort of detriment to his career? In what backwards-assed alternate universe is an 8 point game seen as a bad thing? You go on to say he's statistically stagnated, yet his statistics show that his point totals have increased from 10-11 to 11-12.

Did I mention that he's just 1 year older than Henrique? Judging by your logic Henrique therefore must be ready to hit his plateau this upcoming year, right? You talk as if Gagner is this old man. He's 23 for God's sake.

Only on HF boards is consistency and a proven track record seen as some sort of detriment, while Mr. Henrique who has one 51 point season is being lauded as the next Parise. That little unknown is being greatly exaggerated and extrapolated to twist into this ideal that Jersey fans hold him up to and somehow make it seem plausible that Henrique and his one mediocre 51 point rookie season playing on the top line between Kovalchuk and Parise is somehow worth more than Gagner's proven 5 year track record playing in a much more reduced capacity and with shoddier line mates to boot.

Someone please wake me up, because I just don't see any logic whatsoever in that. I take Gagner over Henrique 10 times out of 10.
No offense, but you're a complete homer. While I agree that Gagner is a valuable asset, the smart money is on Henrique. One NHL season at 51 points and a good playoffs, versus five straight seasons with no offensive progression? Come on.

And comparing a player to the other players selected around him is pretty unillimunating. Some draft classes, or ranges of picks in draft classes, suck. Is Taylor Pyatt impressive because he had a better career than a lot of the other guys drafted in 99?

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:02 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
No offense, but you're a complete homer. While I agree that Gagner is a valuable asset, the smart money is on Henrique. One NHL season at 51 points and a good playoffs, versus five straight seasons with no offensive progression? Come on.

And comparing a player to the other players selected around him is pretty unillimunating. Some draft classes, or ranges of picks in draft classes, suck. Is Taylor Pyatt impressive because he had a better career than a lot of the other guys drafted in 99?
The smart money? You mean when Henrique is regulated back to the 2nd line/whatever line when Zajac is healthy enough to resume his first line duties? And you still expect him to put up the similar numbers not playing with 2 of the most offensive talents in the league? Who's really the homer.

A lot of people act as if Henrique is going to be this offensive dynamo when there hasn't been any indication of that whatsoever. I know fans love to envision their players as becoming the next diamond in the rough or late bloomer but get real. Sure, he was a great late round pick but you all seem to ignore the fact that he played with two of the best offensive players in the show and only managed "Sam Gagner Numbers". Let's look a bit closer here:

Kovalchuk: 83pts
Parise: 69 pts
Henrique: 51 pts

One of these things is not like the others.

If anything, that just shows how limited Henrique is. Looks like Kovalchuk ran that line and Henrique could barely keep up. Definitely not someone poised to be the offensive juggernaut that's expected of him by some fans.

I take Gagner over Henrique simply because I know what I'm getting from him. Henrique has statistical anomaly written all over him. No one expects Gagner to progress significantly better than where he is now. But with the additions of our very own offensive prodigies I expect his numbers to jump while Henrique's is sure to fall not being on the first line anymore and anyone who bets against that is surely not in the right capacity to be making bets.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-10-2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason: qdp
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09-10-2012, 06:15 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nobody depended on Gagner to bring us out of the basement. He was brought in way earlier in his development because of our need for a 2nd line center and he did well. Have you seen the other picks in that draft?

1. Patrick Kane 399gp 369p
2. James van Riemsdyk 196GP, 99p
3. Kyle Turris 186gp 75p
4. Thomas Hickey 0gp 0p
5. Karl Alzner 215gp 39p
6. Sam Gagner 366gp 220p
7. Jakub Voracek 319gp 183p
8. Zach Hamill 20gp 4p

Yeah. Real bust there. I can totally see where you could jump to that conclusion.
Redo that draft and he goes 2nd overall.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said he was a bust as a matter of fact, I agreed with you. However, I do take exception to the fact that a 6th overall pick is not supposed to help you get out of the basement. Why the hell would you pick him that high if you didn't have high expectations for him? Just because he has done well relative to his draft class doesn't mean more wasn't expected of him.

You act like this 8 point game is some sort of detriment to his career? In what backwards-assed alternate universe is an 8 point game seen as a bad thing? You go on to say he's statistically stagnated, yet his statistics show that his point totals have increased from 10-11 to 11-12.

8 points in a game is nice, but when evaluating a player you look for consistency and Gagner has never hit 50 points. He was a low 40 point player until this year and if you take out that one tremendous game, he is below 40 points. Again, I'm not saying he is a bad player, but for a player picked 6th overall there has to be higher expectations.

Did I mention that he's just 1 year older than Henrique? Judging by your logic Henrique therefore must be ready to hit his plateau this upcoming year, right? You talk as if Gagner is this old man. He's 23 for God's sake.

Again putting words in my mouth. But production wise, Gagner hasn't progressed. That doesn't mean that he won't but he hasn't so far. Logic dictates that Henrique will get better since it was his first year in the NHL, that's all I'm saying.

Only on HF boards is consistency and a proven track record seen as some sort of detriment, while Mr. Henrique who has one 51 point season is being lauded as the next Parise. That little unknown is being greatly exaggerated and extrapolated to twist into this ideal that Jersey fans hold him up to and somehow make it seem plausible that Henrique and his one mediocre 51 point rookie season playing on the top line between Kovalchuk and Parise is somehow worth more than Gagner's proven 5 year track record playing in a much more reduced capacity and with shoddier line mates to boot.

Someone please wake me up, because I just don't see any logic whatsoever in that. I take Gagner over Henrique 10 times out of 10.
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinions, but until Gagner takes that next step in production I don't see it.

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09-10-2012, 06:22 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Nobody depended on Gagner to bring us out of the basement. He was brought in way earlier in his development because of our need for a 2nd line center and he did well. Have you seen the other picks in that draft?

1. Patrick Kane 399gp 369p
2. James van Riemsdyk 196GP, 99p
3. Kyle Turris 186gp 75p
4. Thomas Hickey 0gp 0p
5. Karl Alzner 215gp 39p
6. Sam Gagner 366gp 220p
7. Jakub Voracek 319gp 183p
8. Zach Hamill 20gp 4p

Yeah. Real bust there. I can totally see where you could jump to that conclusion.
Redo that draft and he goes 2nd overall.

You act like this 8 point game is some sort of detriment to his career? In what backwards-assed alternate universe is an 8 point game seen as a bad thing? You go on to say he's statistically stagnated, yet his statistics show that his point totals have increased from 10-11 to 11-12.

Did I mention that he's just 1 year older than Henrique? Judging by your logic Henrique therefore must be ready to hit his plateau this upcoming year, right? You talk as if Gagner is this old man. He's 23 for God's sake.

Only on HF boards is consistency and a proven track record seen as some sort of detriment, while Mr. Henrique who has one 51 point season is being lauded as the next Parise. That little unknown is being greatly exaggerated and extrapolated to twist into this ideal that Jersey fans hold him up to and somehow make it seem plausible that Henrique and his one mediocre 51 point rookie season playing on the top line between Kovalchuk and Parise is somehow worth more than Gagner's proven 5 year track record playing in a much more reduced capacity and with shoddier line mates to boot.

Someone please wake me up, because I just don't see any logic whatsoever in that. I take Gagner over Henrique 10 times out of 10.
8 percent of his points were scored in one game.....I'd take Henrique over Gagner 11 times out of 10. Henrique is good defensively, has talent, and doesn't get his ass whooped in fights

I'd rather my 3rd round pick score 51 than my #6 Overall never break 50

You neglect to mention the drop off in points earlier in his career as well.


Last edited by hlaverty06: 09-10-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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Old
09-10-2012, 06:36 PM
  #167
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The smart money? You mean when Henrique is regulated back to the 2nd line/whatever line when Zajac is healthy enough to resume his first line duties? And you still expect him to put up the similar numbers not playing with 2 of the most offensive talents in the league? Who's really the homer.

A lot of people act as if Henrique is going to be this offensive dynamo when there hasn't been any indication of that whatsoever. I know fans love to envision their players as becoming the next diamond in the rough or late bloomer but get real. Sure, he was a great late round pick but you all seem to ignore the fact that he played with two of the best offensive players in the show and only managed "Sam Gagner Numbers". Let's look a bit closer here:

Kovalchuk: 83pts
Parise: 69 pts
Henrique: 51 pts

One of these things is not like the others.

If anything, that just shows how limited Henrique is. Looks like Kovalchuk ran that line and Henrique could barely keep up. Definitely not someone poised to be the offensive juggernaut that's expected of him by some fans.

I take Gagner over Henrique simply because I know what I'm getting from him. Henrique has statistical anomaly written all over him. No one expects Gagner to progress significantly better than where he is now. But with the additions of our very own offensive prodigies I expect his numbers to jump while Henrique's is sure to fall not being on the first line anymore and anyone who bets against that is surely not in the right capacity to be making bets.
At one point of the season Henrique was close to a point per game, then he missed some time with a groin injury and that slowed him down. Tell you what, let me show you two stat lines, and you can decide which one is which.


GP: 24 G:8 A:7 P:15 -8
GP: 24 G:5 A:8 P:13 +12

One of these guys is "One of the best offensive players in the show" the other is Adam Henrique, who btw, did that playing on the 3rd line.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-10-2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason: qep
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Old
09-10-2012, 07:20 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The smart money? You mean when Henrique is regulated back to the 2nd line/whatever line when Zajac is healthy enough to resume his first line duties? And you still expect him to put up the similar numbers not playing with 2 of the most offensive talents in the league? Who's really the homer.

A lot of people act as if Henrique is going to be this offensive dynamo when there hasn't been any indication of that whatsoever. I know fans love to envision their players as becoming the next diamond in the rough or late bloomer but get real. Sure, he was a great late round pick but you all seem to ignore the fact that he played with two of the best offensive players in the show and only managed "Sam Gagner Numbers". Let's look a bit closer here:

Kovalchuk: 83pts
Parise: 69 pts
Henrique: 51 pts

One of these things is not like the others.

If anything, that just shows how limited Henrique is. Looks like Kovalchuk ran that line and Henrique could barely keep up. Definitely not someone poised to be the offensive juggernaut that's expected of him by some fans.

I take Gagner over Henrique simply because I know what I'm getting from him. Henrique has statistical anomaly written all over him. No one expects Gagner to progress significantly better than where he is now. But with the additions of our very own offensive prodigies I expect his numbers to jump while Henrique's is sure to fall not being on the first line anymore and anyone who bets against that is surely not in the right capacity to be making bets.
It goes a lot further than point production, if you actually watched Devils games he was pretty much the savior to our season the way he stepped up. Furthermore, look at even strength points. Kovalchuk had a lot of PP points last season, which is why you saw his totals inflated. Henrique was delegated to the AHL after two or three games where he bounced around the third and fourth lines. He played like five games n the third line before he was promoted. Essentially, he got 51 in 65-70 games. In addition, he was the oly guy that actually meshed between Kovalchuk and Parise.

I'd disagree with Henrique over Gagner and I dont overrate Henrique as much as the otherDevils fans here. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Gagner plays PK or more defensively oriented minutes. Even then, I doubt he plays as much or in as many significant situations as Henrique does. I personally believe Henrique will hover around the 55 or 60 point mark for his career. In addition, it's likely he has some bad seasons and some good seasons. I don't agree with how other deals fans asserted their opinions, but Gagner seems to have maxed out as a mid 40 point guy. Even if Henrique happens to follow the same suit, again correct me if I am wrong, but his all around play, leadership, and how clutch he is makes him better choice than Gagner.

We can agree to disagree but that's my side of it.


Last edited by Holden Caulfield: 09-10-2012 at 11:20 PM. Reason: qep
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09-10-2012, 07:41 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The smart money? You mean when Henrique is regulated back to the 2nd line/whatever line when Zajac is healthy enough to resume his first line duties? And you still expect him to put up the similar numbers not playing with 2 of the most offensive talents in the league? Who's really the homer.

A lot of people act as if Henrique is going to be this offensive dynamo when there hasn't been any indication of that whatsoever. I know fans love to envision their players as becoming the next diamond in the rough or late bloomer but get real. Sure, he was a great late round pick but you all seem to ignore the fact that he played with two of the best offensive players in the show and only managed "Sam Gagner Numbers". Let's look a bit closer here:

Kovalchuk: 83pts
Parise: 69 pts
Henrique: 51 pts

One of these things is not like the others.

If anything, that just shows how limited Henrique is. Looks like Kovalchuk ran that line and Henrique could barely keep up. Definitely not someone poised to be the offensive juggernaut that's expected of him by some fans.

I take Gagner over Henrique simply because I know what I'm getting from him. Henrique has statistical anomaly written all over him. No one expects Gagner to progress significantly better than where he is now. But with the additions of our very own offensive prodigies I expect his numbers to jump while Henrique's is sure to fall not being on the first line anymore and anyone who bets against that is surely not in the right capacity to be making bets.
First, let me go on record saying that I definitely think there is some general underrating of Gagner/overrating of Henrique going on in this thread.

But, that being said, I find this argument to be absurd.
After being sent down to the AHL, Henrique was thrown into the fire on the first line after the intended top 2 centers went down with injury and a couple of other youngsters failed to produce. Playing with Parise & Kovalchuk is not something just any rookie can handle.

Secondly... what rookie, of any caliber, is expected to maintain scoring production with Ilya Kovalchuk? Especially considering the kind of minutes Kovy eats during a game. That's an absurd expectation of most players in this league, let alone a rookie.

Nobody is expecting Henrique to be an "offensive dynamo" but he is expected to maintain consistent, reliable production.
Henrique played with Clarkson & Ponikarovsky in the playoffs and maintained scoring pace with everyone but Kovy. I thnk he'll succeed no matter what line he happens upon.

During the regular season, there are also a handful of other factors leading to the gap in points between Henrique and his linemates:

1. He played significantly less powerplay time than either Parise or Kovy
2. He did not play the entirety of the season on the top line
3. He had a very underwhelming start to the season before being called up again
4. He played less games than both Parise and Kovy
5. He's a rookie

There are arguments to further state Gagner's value and there are arguments to say why one would not pay the price it costs for Henrique... but this is not one of them.

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09-10-2012, 08:14 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by manilaNJ View Post
Hall is definitely worth more than Zajac at this point.

In a fantasy world, I overpay for Taylor Hall.
In reality, the pieces aren't there and Zajac is still a fantastic player to have on the team. It's not worth attempting the swap.
Of course he's worth more then Zajac. He's certainly not worth Zajac, the 1st rounder, great prospect, and whatever else this guy's asking for though, not in my opinion.

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09-10-2012, 10:46 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Shepard VI View Post
Gagner is heading towards bust status (considering he was a former 6th overall pick). Henrique was in the consideration for the Calder trophy (and would have won if the playoffs meant anything).
Let's not go crazy here. Gagner is in no way a bust, (which I define as a skater who doesn't reach 200 NHL games) and considering how bad the top end of that draft was, I'm not even convinced that he's underachieving below his draft position.

And the playoffs don't mean anything. Informed Devils fans knew that Henrique had no chance of winning the Calder with RNH and Landeskog in the running, both younger than him and both outscoring him slightly.

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
The smart money? You mean when Henrique is regulated back to the 2nd line/whatever line when Zajac is healthy enough to resume his first line duties? And you still expect him to put up the similar numbers not playing with 2 of the most offensive talents in the league? Who's really the homer.

A lot of people act as if Henrique is going to be this offensive dynamo when there hasn't been any indication of that whatsoever. I know fans love to envision their players as becoming the next diamond in the rough or late bloomer but get real. Sure, he was a great late round pick but you all seem to ignore the fact that he played with two of the best offensive players in the show and only managed "Sam Gagner Numbers". Let's look a bit closer here:

Kovalchuk: 83pts
Parise: 69 pts
Henrique: 51 pts

One of these things is not like the others.

If anything, that just shows how limited Henrique is. Looks like Kovalchuk ran that line and Henrique could barely keep up. Definitely not someone poised to be the offensive juggernaut that's expected of him by some fans.

I take Gagner over Henrique simply because I know what I'm getting from him. Henrique has statistical anomaly written all over him. No one expects Gagner to progress significantly better than where he is now. But with the additions of our very own offensive prodigies I expect his numbers to jump while Henrique's is sure to fall not being on the first line anymore and anyone who bets against that is surely not in the right capacity to be making bets.
It's not the 80s anymore, nor is Henrique as good as Crosby. Normal rookies don't come in and put up PPG+ numbers, I'm not sure what you were expecting when your own prized rookie put up "only" 50ish points also.

You also clearly haven't watched him. He does the little things well, and he is a dynamic player in his own right, capable of carrying play just as much as guys like Kovalchuk and Parise. And the Devils' second line isn't that bad either, as of right now he'd likely be playing with Elias (10th league-wide in scoring last season) and Clarkson (30 goals). I think Henrique would do just fine with those guys, along with more PP time due to the departure of Parise.

It's very silly to expect him to have a huge regression beyond what is normal for sophomore players. And from watching him play, I am confident in saying that he is still low on his development curve. If handled correctly, he does have star potential.

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09-10-2012, 10:50 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Zippy316 View Post
It goes a lot further than point production, if you actually watched Devils games he was pretty much the savior to our season the way he stepped up. Furthermore, look at even strength points. Kovalchuk had a lot of PP points last season, which is why you saw his totals inflated. Henrique was delegated to the AHL after two or three games where he bounced around the third and fourth lines. He played like five games n the third line before he was promoted. Essentially, he got 51 in 65-70 games. In addition, he was the oly guy that actually meshed between Kovalchuk and Parise.

I'd disagree with Henrique over Gagner and I dont overrate Henrique as much as the otherDevils fans here. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Gagner plays PK or more defensively oriented minutes. Even then, I doubt he plays as much or in as many significant situations as Henrique does. I personally believe Henrique will hover around the 55 or 60 point mark for his career. In addition, it's likely he has some bad seasons and some good seasons. I don't agree with how other deals fans asserted their opinions, but Gagner seems to have maxed out as a mid 40 point guy. Even if Henrique happens to follow the same suit, again correct me if I am wrong, but his all around play, leadership, and how clutch he is makes him better choice than Gagner.

We can agree to disagree but that's my side of it.

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Originally Posted by manilaNJ View Post
First, let me go on record saying that I definitely think there is some general underrating of Gagner/overrating of Henrique going on in this thread.

But, that being said, I find this argument to be absurd.
After being sent down to the AHL, Henrique was thrown into the fire on the first line after the intended top 2 centers went down with injury and a couple of other youngsters failed to produce. Playing with Parise & Kovalchuk is not something just any rookie can handle.

Secondly... what rookie, of any caliber, is expected to maintain scoring production with Ilya Kovalchuk? Especially considering the kind of minutes Kovy eats during a game. That's an absurd expectation of most players in this league, let alone a rookie.

Nobody is expecting Henrique to be an "offensive dynamo" but he is expected to maintain consistent, reliable production.
Henrique played with Clarkson & Ponikarovsky in the playoffs and maintained scoring pace with everyone but Kovy. I thnk he'll succeed no matter what line he happens upon.

During the regular season, there are also a handful of other factors leading to the gap in points between Henrique and his linemates:

1. He played significantly less powerplay time than either Parise or Kovy
2. He did not play the entirety of the season on the top line
3. He had a very underwhelming start to the season before being called up again
4. He played less games than both Parise and Kovy
5. He's a rookie

There are arguments to further state Gagner's value and there are arguments to say why one would not pay the price it costs for Henrique... but this is not one of them.
My biggest issue is I can't tell what's a genuine critique of Henrique and his season and what's just player infatuation for someone who got lucky and ended up on the top line. I mean, who was the alternative to Henrique? Jacob Josefson? Ryan Carter? To say those players didn't mesh well playing with Kovalchuk and Parise well, pardon my language but no ****.

Henrique was most definitely on the 2nd PK unit and it seems he was put there for the same reason he was slotted into the 1st line. He played some important minutes and NJ ended up first in PK. I don't contribute much of that success to Henrique but I do agree he has shown a capability to play in that situation, which is something Gagner has not found himself in because we have Horcoff eating up a lot of our defensive minutes. Personally I don't think Gagner would do well in a defensive role.

I understand the pluses that Henrique brings to the table and for myself I find that it's just not sustainable for a few reasons.

1) He will not be back on the 1st line
2) A full NHL will take a toll on him
3) I expect the expectation of him will likely result in a Paajarvi-like sophomore slump
4) Just can't shake the feeling that he could likely be a flash in the pan due to the situation surrounding his season.

So while I do understand why you may expect big things from Henrique and why you would think it's crazy for me not to take him over Gagner, understand that he has statistical anomaly written all over him. If I were a GM, risk-reward would be a huge factor in my decision making and that's exactly what it comes down to with Henrique. Take the sure thing in Gagner who is still young and has a proven track record or Henrique who could top out at 60 pts and could very well fall off the face of the planet as fast as he rose. No homer here, it's just a numbers game for me.

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09-11-2012, 06:19 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Missionhockey View Post
At one point of the season Henrique was close to a point per game, then he missed some time with a groin injury and that slowed him down. Tell you what, let me show you two stat lines, and you can decide which one is which.


GP: 24 G:8 A:7 P:15 -8
GP: 24 G:5 A:8 P:13 +12

One of these guys is "One of the best offensive players in the show" the other is Adam Henrique, who btw, did that playing on the 3rd line.
No one is denying that Henrique had a terrific season or that he has the potential to be a very good player. But things like this do not "prove" anything. Here is a streak from Sam Gagner's rookie year as an 18 year old:

GP 31 G 10 A 23 P 33

and he did this playing with Cogliano and Nilsson. And in contrast in his last 35 games Henrique had

G 3 A 14 P 17

In the big picture what does this mean. Probably nothing more than many players get hot but generally are not able to sustain it.

The reality is that in almost every year if you look at the top 10 rookie forwards pointwise you will find that most of these guys tend to either drop off or stagnate for several years. Typically only one or two continue to progress over the next few years as far as point totals are concerned, and far more often than not these are the guys who you expect to do so, guys like Stamkos and Tavares. If you look at the players in this years to 10 one would expect Nugent-Hopkins to be the guy most likely to jump to the next level points-wise, with Landeskog next and after that possibly Cody Hodgson or Couturier depending upon their roles on Buffalo and Philly respectively.

This is not to say that Henrique might not be an exception, but the odds are against him, particularly with the loss of Parise. It also does not mean that the player cannot make progress in his game. I fully expect Henrique to improve in many aspects of his game, and to become a very good two-way center. But if we are simply talking about point production, then the chances are that he will not improve much or at all for at least a few years.


Last edited by Fourier: 09-11-2012 at 06:31 AM.
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Old
09-11-2012, 06:50 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Devils Trap View Post
Wrong. Gagner will never be considered a bust. He may not live up to potential but he has already played 360 NHL Games and has 200 NHL Points. He is not considered a bust at all, but he would be considered that he did not live up to potential
Edmonton fans have been entertaining trading him for the last several years. To me, that is not living up to potential and wanting him out. While it may not be bust status, he's not a key component to their future endeavours.

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09-11-2012, 07:21 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Shepard VI View Post
Edmonton fans have been entertaining trading him for the last several years. To me, that is not living up to potential and wanting him out. While it may not be bust status, he's not a key component to their future endeavours.
But you have to understand why this is so. At this point the undisputed #1 center is RNH. This kid has the potential to be something special. The rest of core forward group are talented wingers, none of whom are very big.

Hall is absolutely fearless, but really does anyone want him fighting every battle. Yakupov is unproven, but likely much like Hall. Eberle is surprisingly good in the corners as far as coming away with the puck, and is tremendous in tight to the net, but he is smaller and not very physical. With these guys as the cornerstone of your franchise going forward what you need is players with complementary skills.

Gagner has superb hockey sense, and is really quite creative. He has also got a decent shot from close in but has trouble making enough space for himself to make use of it. Perhaps surprisingly to some, he is actually fairly aggressive by nature so it's not like he is afraid of contact. He is just not good at any part of the physical game that the Oilers need him to play.

To me it seems he lacks core strength as he loses battles against players close to his size. This is one place where age might have been an issue in his first few years. But it should have been corrected by now. That said he has stated that he has been spending the summer with Crosby`s trainer to work on his core strength so we will see. If he really has improved in this area then it is possible that it might help him move up to the next level offensively, but he will never reach a place where he will be strong enough to deal with guys like Getzlaf or Thorton.

People say he has stagnated, and as far as point totals are concerned that is true. But he really is a different player than the kid who put up 49 points in his rookie year. As I said he battles more, even if he is still not so effective in this regard. He has improved in the faceoff circle a lot, and is much more defensively responsible and better positionally than he was earlier in his career. (He came out of London not really knowing there were two ends of the ice.) While I don`t think he will ever be a top end player he is not a bust in any sense. In the right situation, with skilled physical wingers the kid could do some damage.

In the end though many of us think that given the make-up of the team that there is not really a future for Gagner with the Oilers. What the Oilers really need is a clone of Patrice Bergeron, but they are certainly not alone in this regard. Finding the right number 2 center is not going to be easy. It might have to come in the draft, with a kid like Curtis Lazar for example. Henrique could also fit the bill. He`s not big, but he does excell in many of the areas Gagner is lacking. But it is clear that a deal centering around Henrique and Gagner is not going to happen anytime soon.

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