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Old
09-10-2012, 01:21 PM
  #151
Kegsey
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Ya. I'd consider it. It would be a hard pill to swallow, but if Pavelski could become our #1 center and excel at it, the price to acquire him would be justified.
Hard pill to swallow for us too. I've been sitting here for the last 10 minutes just thinking about it. Pavs is consistently one of our better players year after year. It's really hard to justify giving him up for players who aren't as proven.

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09-10-2012, 01:35 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
Hard pill to swallow for us too. I've been sitting here for the last 10 minutes just thinking about it. Pavs is consistently one of our better players year after year. It's really hard to justify giving him up for players who aren't as proven.
Understood. I guess it's a leap of faith for both sides.

Kulemin is the the hardest asset for "us" (me) to part with. Yes, he had a poor offensive year this past year, but he brought alot of outher elements to the table. Plus he is only one year removed from scoring 30 goals. I see him as a 25+ goal, 30+ assist player who plays a responsible 2 way game with an edge in his prime.

Bozak has surpassed what I initially expected from him. He's a player who was thrown into the fire and really played well all things considered. He's decent on faceoffs and responsible defensively. Plus he's proven that he can chip in offensively.

Kadri is the wild card here. He could be the asset that really comes back and bites us in the bum. He has all the offensive tools that make alot of people drool, but his demeanor and overall game, has been somewhat lacking. Now with that being said, it has been said that he was working out with Gary Roberts this offseason, and that could only benefit his development.

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Old
09-10-2012, 05:24 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
im a leaf fan but i disagree with you. there is a significant difference between pavelski and any other center in our system with the exception of possibly grabovski. while i agree that burke would continue to look for an upgrade having pavelski-grabs as a 1-2 down the middle would be better then anything we have had in years.

i think pavelskis numbers are less because he is sheltered in the sense that he is behind big joe, marleau, clowe, couture. in toronto he would be a go to guy with lots of ice time. i would be surprised if he couldnt put up 70+ points playing with lupul and kessel.

as much as i like kulemin i feel like he is going to become a hassel sooner then later. burke got him signed to a short term deal at a low rate but id think if he put up 50+ points again his agent is going to play hardball.

despite not having a lot of forwards as big or as good as kulemin, wing is our area of most depth so if we can trade from that area to address our weakest area (center) i dont see how burke doesnt do it).

if im san jose i dont move pavelski in a deal for kulemin straight up, there would need to be a significant kicker in there to motivate me. the sharks would be better off moving big joe and marleau and building the team around couture and pavelski down the middle.

from a leafs stand point if burke wouldnt move kulemin and kadri for carter/ richards i cant see him offering kadri for pavelski. id think burke would be willing to put a fair amount into play though if it meant getting pavelski though. for the leafs, the addition of pavelski and subtraction of kulemin makes the leafs a better team now and in the future in my opinon.


lupul pavelski kessel
jvr grabs mac
kadri bozak frattin
brown mclemment steckel
connolly

phaneuf gardiner
liles komisarek
franson holzer


pavelski + for kulemin + gunnarson + lombardi
So not only do you suggest trading our best two-way forward... but our most reliable defenceman too?!?!? Talent up front is not the Leafs issue, puck posession is, and Kulemin is probably our strongest in that department outside of JvR.

You suggest Pavelski's numbers are deflated because he plays behind a lot of talent in SJ, the counter arguement can be made that his numbers are inflated because he sometimes plays with those guys, and when he's not, faces the oppositions weakest defensive units. At the end of the day, you take his production for face value, that is of a 60-65 point guy who's good defensively. With Bozak, you've got a 45-50 point guy who's also good defensively, and Connolly a highly talented playmaker capable of producing over a 60 point pace if everything goes right (obviously not going to happen, but he can supplement Bozak's production).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Kulemin has scored over 20 goals exactly one time in 4 nearly full seasons. Please, that's not being a "proven 30 goalscorer". Pavelski has 4 straight seasons of scoring 20 or more, and he scored 30 this past season. Pavelski has one of the best non-ELC contracts in the league, plays a Selke caliber defensive game. Pavelski replaces everything Kulemin does, and then much, much more.

If you're so concerned with size and physicality, I'll trade you Clowe for Kulemin straight up.

I don't value Kulemin as a 7 goal scorer. I'm just mentioning that fact to show how absurd it is that you'd value him over Pavelski. Pavelski is so much better than either Bozak or Connolly, I don't see at all how you could say that.

If you won't trade Kulemin straight up for Pavelski at all, then there is simply no trade to be made. Why you wouldn't trade a 2nd/3rd line tweener for a 1st liner is beyond me, but to each his own I guess?
Again, you trash him, but insist on him being included in a trade instead of more consistent goalscorer Clarke MacArthur.

Kulemin has proven the ability to score 30 goals in this league. That's a fact, no matter how you want to downplay it. Can he be expected to score 30 for the Leafs next year? of course not, but he doesn't need to in order to deliver immense value to Toronto.

I'm not valuing Kulemin over Pavelski, as mentioned, I'd do a straight up trade and possibly even include a small asset. But when you start talking highly valuable pieces like Bozak/Kadri, there's just no way. If we're talking a movable winger like MacArthur, that's a different story.

Joe Pavelski would be a first line centre to the Leafs just like Tyler Bozak is -- miscast, and Toronto would still be needing to upgrade the position. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to start creating holes in the team when you're not really doing a great job of filling one. Kulemin is a perfect fit on the Leafs, and there's really no need to consider upgrading/replacing him at this point in time.

Clowe-Kulemin actually isn't a terrible proposal, although the Leafs pass because Kulemin is better cast in a checking line role, and displayed upside well beyond Ryane Clowe's last year. If Clowe was included in a Pavelski deal, that would certainly put Kulemin+ significant assets on the table.

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Old
09-10-2012, 05:51 PM
  #154
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Pavelski is our best defensive forward. He plays against top competition. In fact he plays against some of the top competition in the league. He is anything but sheltered, ever.

Pavelski is worth far more to us than Kulemin. I'd personally run Doug Wilson out of the building if he made an idiotic trade like that.

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:07 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski is our best defensive forward. He plays against top competition. In fact he plays against some of the top competition in the league. He is anything but sheltered, ever.

Pavelski is worth far more to us than Kulemin. I'd personally run Doug Wilson out of the building if he made an idiotic trade like that.
Just stop arguing with seanlinden, just look at his statements throughout the thread. Either he doesn't want to accept the truth that Pavelski is going to require a massive overpayment from the Leafs because he is that good, or he is just a blind homer who doesn't watch the Sharks at all.

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:11 PM
  #156
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Alright, so...what about the Leafs acquiring Pavelski, Clowe and Murray?

Earlier we discussed a potential Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak for Pavelski + Murray.

If we add Clowe to the equation, would MacArthur plus a pick get it done?


Bozak
Kulemin
MacArthur
Kadri
Pick (?)

for

Pavelski
Clowe
Murray

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:24 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Alright, so...what about the Leafs acquiring Pavelski, Clowe and Murray?

Earlier we discussed a potential Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak for Pavelski + Murray.

If we add Clowe to the equation, would MacArthur plus a pick get it done?


Bozak
Kulemin
MacArthur
Kadri
Pick (?)

for

Pavelski
Clowe
Murray
I would seriously consider it. It addresses a need (depth) for us well enough that it might be worth the cost. We'd look something like...

Marleau - Thornton - Kulemin
MacArthur - Couture - Havlat
Wingels - Bozak - Kadri
Galiardi - Desjardins - Burrish

Sucks losing Pav's, but I'd consider it for sure.

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:35 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Alright, so...what about the Leafs acquiring Pavelski, Clowe and Murray?

Earlier we discussed a potential Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak for Pavelski + Murray.

If we add Clowe to the equation, would MacArthur plus a pick get it done?


Bozak
Kulemin
MacArthur
Kadri
Pick (?)

for

Pavelski
Clowe
Murray
Yeah, I'd definitely consider it. :-)

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:37 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Pavelski is the ideal 1B centerman. He's averaged 25 goals and 60 points over the past 4 seasons as a defense-first guy. He's fast, has a great hockey IQ and the biggest heart on his team. Olympic teammates with Kessel to boot.

He's also coming off a career best 31-30, 61, +18 season with 50 hits, 84 blocked shots and 59% on faceoffs. On any team that doesnt already have 2-3 proven top 6 centers he wouldnt be available.This means he won't come cheap.

San Jose will demand someone who can replace him in the top 6 (Kulemim), a top prospect (Kadri) and likely another little + on top. Leafs fans may see this as an overpayment, but this is one scenario where it might be wise to pony up for the right guy.
Bozak will bring that stat line this season.

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:37 PM
  #160
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Nice to have a nice civilized exchange of ideas

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Old
09-10-2012, 06:38 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Alright, so...what about the Leafs acquiring Pavelski, Clowe and Murray?

Earlier we discussed a potential Kulemin + Kadri + Bozak for Pavelski + Murray.

If we add Clowe to the equation, would MacArthur plus a pick get it done?


Bozak
Kulemin
MacArthur
Kadri
Pick (?)

for

Pavelski
Clowe
Murray
I think it's maybe a little bit too much coming from Toronto..Maybe remove the pick and add a mid round one coming from SJ. a 3rd/4th could seal that deal..

The way I see it is that Kulemin+Kadri would be enough for Pavelski or maybe a tad not enough.. And I think McArthur and Bozak for Clowe Murray is better for SJ than it is for Toronto...

But again it's no big deal.
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Nice to have a nice civilized exchange of ideas
Yep, props to the SJ fans, they're one of the less unbiased fan base on this site.

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Old
09-10-2012, 08:58 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski is our best defensive forward. He plays against top competition. In fact he plays against some of the top competition in the league. He is anything but sheltered, ever.

Pavelski is worth far more to us than Kulemin. I'd personally run Doug Wilson out of the building if he made an idiotic trade like that.
He plays against the top offensive competition. The other team's top offensive guys generally aren't their best defensive guys.

I never said that you should make a Kulemin-Pavelski trade, simply that's something along the lines of what the Leafs would be prepared to do. If the Sharks are going to get the best value in terms of depth out of a Pavelski deal, they'd be much better served going with a package of Bozak/Kadri/MacArthur than they would be putting all their eggs in one basket with Kulemin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsolonMoreau View Post
Just stop arguing with seanlinden, just look at his statements throughout the thread. Either he doesn't want to accept the truth that Pavelski is going to require a massive overpayment from the Leafs because he is that good, or he is just a blind homer who doesn't watch the Sharks at all.
I think you need to have another look at my statements. Pavelski may require massive overpayment (whether or not he does, and to what degree, isn't really relevant -- as Toronto may be willing to overpay).... I'm simply saying that Kulemin too is going to require a massive overpayment (likely bigger than Pavelski's overpayment) from the Sharks considering the unique skillset he brings to the Leafs. A skillset that was their biggest weakness last year, and that nobody in the organization is capable of replacing.

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Old
09-10-2012, 09:05 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He plays against the top offensive competition. The other team's top offensive guys generally aren't their best defensive guys.

I never said that you should make a Kulemin-Pavelski trade, simply that's something along the lines of what the Leafs would be prepared to do. If the Sharks are going to get the best value in terms of depth out of a Pavelski deal, they'd be much better served going with a package of Bozak/Kadri/MacArthur than they would be putting all their eggs in one basket with Kulemin.



I think you need to have another look at my statements. Pavelski may require massive overpayment (whether or not he does, and to what degree, isn't really relevant -- as Toronto may be willing to overpay).... I'm simply saying that Kulemin too is going to require a massive overpayment (likely bigger than Pavelski's overpayment) from the Sharks considering the unique skillset he brings to the Leafs. A skillset that was their biggest weakness last year, and that nobody in the organization is capable of replacing.
It seems to me like you and other Leafs fans disagree on what the Leafs biggest issues are. Most believe the 1st line centre/starting goalie to be the most pressing needs, while you believe gritty puck possesion wingers to be more important.

Just my take on this.

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09-10-2012, 09:09 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It seems to me like you and other Leafs fans disagree on what the Leafs biggest issues are. Most believe the 1st line centre/starting goalie to be the most pressing needs, while you believe gritty puck possesion wingers to be more important.

Just my take on this.
Of course a #1 centre / goaltender is Toronto's biggest positional need (s).

However, getting size / puck possession ability is Toronto's biggest team need, and as a result, players who can deliver that near the top of our lineup (like Kulemin, and JvR) are going to get grossly overvalued, and rightfully so. Toronto's biggest weakness last year was not their defensive play, it was the fact that they spent basically no time in the offensive zone.

#1 centres are going to have a certain value, like #2 centres and 2nd/3rd line wingers. The thing is for Toronto, if that 2nd / 3rd line winger brings size, puck possession, and two-way play, he's going to get grossly overvalued to the point where he may be worth more than a guy who's "above his class".

In this case, Pavelski's a great 2nd line centre and Kulemin's a great 2nd/3rd line winger. To the Leafs, they're probably equal. It's not going to make sense for the Sharks to make that trade... which is why you look at guys who aren't grossly overvalued. MacArthur is a good 2nd/3rd line winger capable of putting up 20+, Bozak's a good 2nd/3rd line C capable of putting up 45+ and being reliable defensively. Kadri's a high potential prospect who's NHL ready. For a 2nd line centre, that's a lot better deal than a 2nd/3rd line winger. Back to the Toronto standpoint, it makes more sense to offer the latter package, simply because doing that is a clear upgrade to the immediate lineup. Unless the Leafs can replace Kulemin with Bozak, MacArthur & Kadri, then they've created a big hole, and all for upgrading Bozak to Pavelski.


Last edited by seanlinden: 09-10-2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old
09-10-2012, 09:15 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Of course a #1 centre / goaltender is Toronto's biggest positional need (s).

However, getting size / puck possession ability is Toronto's biggest team need, and as a result, players who can deliver that near the top of our lineup (like Kulemin, and JvR) are going to get grossly overvalued, and rightfully so. Toronto's biggest weakness last year was not their defensive play, it was the fact that they spent basically no time in the offensive zone.

#1 centres are going to have a certain value, like #2 centres and 2nd/3rd line wingers. The thing is for Toronto, if that 2nd / 3rd line winger brings size, puck possession, and two-way play, he's going to get grossly overvalued to the point where he may be worth more than a guy who's "above his class".
I dunno. Imo, the hole created by trading Kulemin is more than made up for the one filled with Pavelski. Kulemin is not that much of an impact player that he merits not being moved for aplayer like Pavelski. Each to their own, I guess.

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Old
09-10-2012, 09:22 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I dunno. Imo, the hole created by trading Kulemin is more than made up for the one filled with Pavelski. Kulemin is not that much of an impact player that he merits not being moved for aplayer like Pavelski. Each to their own, I guess.
This is a sign of somebody who doesn't watch enough Leafs games. Kulemin, despite his lack of presence on the scoresheet, is a huge asset for a team with undersized forwards and an inexperienced blueline like Toronto. Similar to how Los Angeles succeeded this year, the Leafs need to insulate that blueline with a strong puck posession game. Guys like Kessel, Lupul, MacArthur, Grabovski; all dangerous players with the puck, but none paticularily strong at working the offensive zone corners with it.

Pavelski does merit moving Kulemin, in a straight up trade. The problem is of course, the Sharks 'aint gonna do that... and Pavelski does not merit moving Kulemin in a deal that also costs us Bozak and/or Kadri. We need those guys to either trade for a Kulemin replacement, or keep cost down so that we can take on a high-dollar Kulemin replacement. It makes much more sense to move a guy that puts up better numbers and has been more dangerous, but is less important to how the Leafs intend to play next year.

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Old
09-11-2012, 01:06 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pavelski is our best defensive forward. He plays against top competition. In fact he plays against some of the top competition in the league. He is anything but sheltered, ever.

Pavelski is worth far more to us than Kulemin. I'd personally run Doug Wilson out of the building if he made an idiotic trade like that.
I'm curios, I thought Big Joe's stats showed he faced some of the toughest competition in the league last year. I'm not well versed enough in advanced stats to look it up, but I thought statistically he was at or near the top of quality of competition.

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09-11-2012, 01:19 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
I'm curios, I thought Big Joe's stats showed he faced some of the toughest competition in the league last year. I'm not well versed enough in advanced stats to look it up, but I thought statistically he was at or near the top of quality of competition.
He is, Pavelski and he lead the Sharks. That said, Pavelski is better defensively of the two. Both are excellent.

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09-11-2012, 02:18 PM
  #169
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Close the thread then. If Toronto won't move Kulemin in a package for Pavelski, then there's nothing to talk about.

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Old
09-11-2012, 05:10 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Close the thread then. If Toronto won't move Kulemin in a package for Pavelski, then there's nothing to talk about.
Is this where I counter with:
McClaren
Greiss
Pick

for

Grabovski

?


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Old
09-11-2012, 10:42 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Close the thread then. If Toronto won't move Kulemin in a package for Pavelski, then there's nothing to talk about.
I would package Kulemin for Pavelski. To be honest I'd do a hybrid where you can have Kulemin and MacA, and I'd still be willing to add.

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