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MLD 2012 Mickey Ion QF: Winston-Salem Polar Twins vs. Winnipeg Monarchs

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Old
09-09-2012, 01:14 AM
  #26
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
You put forth the theory that maybe Scanlan was a playmaker rather than a goalscorer, and that could have been. But, then shouldn't the quotes about his play be about his passing ability rather than his speed and stickhandling? I stand by my point that his goal totals are just terrible, absolutely terrible.
A low goals-per-game would mean something if he were in a goal-scoring role, but he's not.

Also, it's not easy to find quotes about anyone's passing in that era. Playmaking was done differently then, with speed and stickhandling and a keen sense of timing (what Selke likely meant by "heady" plays). A player who was very fast, a very good stickhandler, and who was noted for his role in setting up goals for his linemates, is a good playmaker in that era.

Moreover, Scanlan is not the main puck mover on the line -- Nilsson is. Scanlan's contribution is his speed and stick skills, which are established, and which compliment the playmaking of Nilsson and the pure goal-scoring of Kehoe. You agree that both first lines will operate off of speed and a rushing attack; I'd certainly rather have a Scanlan as the weakest element of that attack than a Hergesheimer, who has no role whatsoever in a speed attack.



Quote:
Sorry I didn't thoroughly investigate every single source in my bios. I picked most of them from a previous bio.
Believe me, I'm not here to lecture anyone. But sourcing our information is important when talking about players that few people ever watched in person. Not a single one of the quotes in that bio cites its claims back to a primary source -- and all three are written by amateur hobbyists whose main purpose is to promote the colorful story of the Kenora Thistles.

Quote:
McGimsie's total GPG in the MNWHA/MHL/MHL-Pro is 2.21 over 34 games. Scanlan's is 1.67 over 3 games. Which is more impressive? There was never any doubt that the Silver Seven were significantly better players than the guys out west. Ottawa routinely crushed opponents from the west. McGimsie's performance in the 04-05 Challenge Cup series was definitely bad, but in 02-03 his team scored 4 goals total, and he had 3 of them. Then in 06-07, he had 4 goals in 2 games. That equals a GPG of 1, as far as I can see. What was Scanlan's GPG in cup challenge games you ask? .353.
Hockey-reference has the following:
1902-03: 2 games, 3 goals
1904-05: 3 games, 0 goals
1905-06: 2 games, 1 goal
Total: 7 games, 4 goals

Anyway, this dodges the main question -- who was McGimsie's competition? And how did it compare to Scanlan's? Don't you think it's kind of telling that a guy who scored 28 goals in 8 games (in itself a red flag of a weak league) then gets blanked three games in a row against a CAHL team?

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It's kinda hard to lead a league that wouldn't exist until 15 years in the future in goals isn't it?
I'll be more direct -- Horvath led the best league in the world in goal scoring. McGimsie didn't.

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Old
09-09-2012, 01:44 AM
  #27
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SIHR's stats for McGimsie in Cup challenges:

1903: 3 goals in 2 games
1905: 1 goal in 3 games
1906: 1 goal in 2 games

Total = 5 goals in 7 games

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09-09-2012, 02:26 AM
  #28
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I'm honestly not a fan of judging anything by a statistically-insignificant number of All Star votes. What are we supposed to take away from Cooper getting 1 vote on each side of the Alternate D team in 1942? That he was roughly the 15th-20th best defenseman in a watered down, 7-team league? The only defensemen in this series who got votes with anything approaching consistency (4 seasons) is Langlois, who you don't like and didn't list. And even at that, I wouldn't attempt to argue Langlois over someone else based upon his votes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
1st Pairings
I think it's clear Hillman is definitely the best defenseman on either pairing, and I don't think it's very close.
Reason?

Quote:
Offensively, Winston Salem definitely has the better top pairing, but I think defensively the Winnipeg tandem is better. Winnipeg's pairing will be used chiefly in shutdown scenarios. Personally, I'd rather have the Winnipeg pairing. The fact that Ellett and Maxwell were both strong offensive players, yet received basically no all star recognition is a bit of a red flag. I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be having the Ellett-Maxwell pairing out in critical situations.
All this tells us is that you're planning to use your top pair differently than I use mine. Obviously Maxwell and Ellett are not the players I'd go to for a critical defensive faceoff -- they're not my shutdown pair! But in a critical offensive situation, you're damned right I'd take Ellett-Maxwell over Hillman-Cooper.

Furthermore, I'd argue that you're making a major mistake putting a shutdown pair behind that first line, and expecting that like to score on rushes. A rush usually begins with a pass from the back end. Furthermore they won't receive an appropriate level of support if they do manage to get a cycle going, whereas my first pair is pretty well equipped for that on both sides.

Ellett-Maxwell might not be a superb defensive unit, but they aren't horrible either and they bring a lot more offense to the table than Hillman-Cooper. I'd say they're the better pair in both directions and more appropriate as a first pairing.

Quote:
2nd Pairings
I'm not a big fan of Langlois. In his years in Montreal, he was at best the #4 behind Harvey, Johnson, and Talbot. His time in NY is similar where he was behind Howell, Harvey, and Neilson. It's certainly no crime for him to be stuck behind those guys, but the fact that he was a top 3 defenseman for maybe 2-3 years of his career is not great.

It's too bad Langlois didn't stick around for expansion, where he could pull a Larry Hillman and go from being a 4th/5th defenseman in an Original Six context to a journeyman in an expansion/WHA context. Why on earth does Langlois' role as a depth guy bother you when you think Hillman is the best top-pair defender in the series?

The difference, of course, is that Langlois is being asked to do the same thing on my team that he did in real life. I'm playing him well within his comfort zone here.

Quote:
McKenny and Guevremont are serving the exact same purpose on these pairings, but I think McKenny is the better offensive player. They played at basically the same time, so I don't need to adjust games played when looking at adjusted PPG. Also, each guy had 7 relevant, good seasons of production. McKenny's adjusted PPG over those 513 games is .536. Guevremont's is .456 over those 581 games. I think McKenny gets the advantage here. Guevremont received one vote for the Norris in 1974, and one vote for the AS team in 1972. McKenny was 16th in AS voting in 1972 with 3 voting points. Neither has a strong record, but McKenny has the best finish among the two. Overall, I think Winnipeg gets the advantage here.
I agree that McKenny is the better offensive producer, but that doesn't make him a better defenseman. And certainly not on the basis of two crummy AS votes.

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Defensively, Winston Salem's pairing might be a bit better.
LOL... that's "a bit" of an understatement! Brown was the defensive conscience next to both Harry Howell (the Norris-winning version) and Brad Park, facing top offensive players night in and night out. Butcher is an old-school, mean defensive rock. You've got Picard, an offensive defenseman who TWICE made the top-10 in GA, and Niinimaa whose biggest moment was getting posterized by a grinder for the Cup-winning goal.

Let's start at "a lot better" and go from there.


In the big picture here, it's a question of roles and usage. My top pairing plays alright in both ends but leans toward offense, middle pair is balanced and the bottom pair is a good shutdown unit. Your top pair is the shutdown unit, middle pair goes both ways and the bottom pair is weak defensively. The question is, why the heck are you giving offensive support to your bottom lines and leaving your top forwards on an island offensively? Fringe All Star voting aside, the chemistry is all out of whack when it comes to stopping a possession in your own end and transitioning to offense at the other.

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Old
09-09-2012, 11:30 AM
  #29
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So the SIHR has McGimsie at 5 goals in 7 games, HR has him at 4 goals in 7 games, and hobokin.net has him at 7 goals in 7 games. Who should we believe? I think I'll send a message to Iain and see if he can clarify which is correct. Here is a list of the league leaders each year out west:

http://hobokin.net/kenorastats1.html

Basically, his competition was Tommy Phillips, Billy Breen, and Si Griffis. Scanlan's was Harry Trihey, Clare McKerrow, Bob McDougall, Arthur Farrell, Russell Bowie, Blair Russell, Bruce Stuart, Lorne Campbell, and Harry Westwick at various points over the 3 years. Scanlan had stronger competition than McGimsie. If their competition was equal, then McGimsie would probably be a borderline top 6 ATD center because of his level of dominance in that league.

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09-09-2012, 11:37 AM
  #30
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My guess with earlier players is that the higher number is usually correct, because it's easier to miss goals when compiling stats than to double count them. What does the bio I made for McGimsie last year say? I had Iain verify the stats I was using there.

The Manitoba league is hard to get a handle on statistically, because it was basically Tommy Phillips, Billy Breen, and Billy McGimsie bunched together at the top (with Phillips usually slightly ahead), and then the pack way behind, where other players were lucky to even have half as many goals as the big 3.

Griffis was a great player too, but as a cover point/ offensive defenseman, he didn't have the goal totals of the best forwards

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Old
09-09-2012, 12:09 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm honestly not a fan of judging anything by a statistically-insignificant number of All Star votes. What are we supposed to take away from Cooper getting 1 vote on each side of the Alternate D team in 1942? That he was roughly the 15th-20th best defenseman in a watered down, 7-team league? The only defensemen in this series who got votes with anything approaching consistency (4 seasons) is Langlois, who you don't like and didn't list. And even at that, I wouldn't attempt to argue Langlois over someone else based upon his votes.
Is it really consistency when three of those 4 years he received one vote? If you have a better metric, feel free to present it, but this is the best we've got at this point.

Quote:
Reason?
He has the better voting record.

Quote:
Furthermore, I'd argue that you're making a major mistake putting a shutdown pair behind that first line, and expecting that like to score on rushes. A rush usually begins with a pass from the back end. Furthermore they won't receive an appropriate level of support if they do manage to get a cycle going, whereas my first pair is pretty well equipped for that on both sides.
The fact that they're the first pairing and the first line mean basically nothing. They'll be out together sometimes, but we're basically going to roll 4 lines and 3 defensive pairings at ES for the first 2 periods at least, so they may start together, but will see plenty of time with other pairings.

Quote:
It's too bad Langlois didn't stick around for expansion, where he could pull a Larry Hillman and go from being a 4th/5th defenseman in an Original Six context to a journeyman in an expansion/WHA context. Why on earth does Langlois' role as a depth guy bother you when you think Hillman is the best top-pair defender in the series?

The difference, of course, is that Langlois is being asked to do the same thing on my team that he did in real life. I'm playing him well within his comfort zone here.
Voting record. It appears we have a philosophical difference here, and neither of us is likely to be swayed in either direction.

Quote:
I agree that McKenny is the better offensive producer, but that doesn't make him a better defenseman. And certainly not on the basis of two crummy AS votes.
I disagree. McKenny is a better defenseman than Guevremont. Look at their usage by their teams. I'll use the same 7 year peak.

McKenny

Overall: 1, 3, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3
ES: 2, 4, 2, 1, 3, 2, 3

Guevremont

Overall: 1, 1, 2, 4, 2, 4, 3
ES: 1, 1, 5, 4, 1, 4, 4

In those years, McKenny's team made the playoffs 5 times. In those 5 years, overall, he was the #3, #1, #2, #2, and #3. Guevremont's teams made the playoffs 4 times in those 7 years. Overall, he was the #4, #2, #4, and #3. Also, when Guevremont led in ES and Overall, twice that was for a bad Vancouver team who was the 2nd worst team defensively in the entire league both years. Why is Guevremont a better defenseman?

Quote:
LOL... that's "a bit" of an understatement! Brown was the defensive conscience next to both Harry Howell (the Norris-winning version) and Brad Park, facing top offensive players night in and night out. Butcher is an old-school, mean defensive rock. You've got Picard, an offensive defenseman who TWICE made the top-10 in GA, and Niinimaa whose biggest moment was getting posterized by a grinder for the Cup-winning goal.

Let's start at "a lot better" and go from there.
Guevremont, who you tried to tout as a better defenseman than McKenny, was top 10 three times, including leading the league one year. Robert Picard was relied upon heavily by his teams, that's a good thing. Believe it or not, Robert Picard turned into a bit of a defensive defenseman later in his career where he was actually heavily relied upon on the PK. In addition, he was top 3 in overall TOI on his team 8 times(leading 3 times), and top 3 in ES 7 times(leading 4 times).


Quote:
In the big picture here, it's a question of roles and usage. My top pairing plays alright in both ends but leans toward offense, middle pair is balanced and the bottom pair is a good shutdown unit. Your top pair is the shutdown unit, middle pair goes both ways and the bottom pair is weak defensively. The question is, why the heck are you giving offensive support to your bottom lines and leaving your top forwards on an island offensively? Fringe All Star voting aside, the chemistry is all out of whack when it comes to stopping a possession in your own end and transitioning to offense at the other.
My first pairing isn't always going to be out with my 1st line. Games don't work like that. Each line will spend plenty of time out with each pairing, it's how hockey works.

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Old
09-09-2012, 12:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My guess with earlier players is that the higher number is usually correct, because it's easier to miss goals when compiling stats than to double count them. What does the bio I made for McGimsie last year say? I had Iain verify the stats I was using there.

The Manitoba league is hard to get a handle on statistically, because it was basically Tommy Phillips, Billy Breen, and Billy McGimsie bunched together at the top (with Phillips usually slightly ahead), and then the pack way behind, where other players were lucky to even have half as many goals as the big 3.

Griffis was a great player too, but as a cover point/ offensive defenseman, he didn't have the goal totals of the best forwards
It doesn't say, it only says that he had 3 goals in 4 cup challenge games in 1903, no specification on the other 2 years. I sent Iain a message, hopefully he can clarify.

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Old
09-09-2012, 04:48 PM
  #33
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Basically, his competition was Tommy Phillips, Billy Breen, and Si Griffis.
I wasn't clear what I was asking -- who was McGimsie's competition during hockey games? How many of his non-teammates are noteworthy players?

Scanlan played against teams like the Silver Seven and Montreal AAA as part of his regular season [edit: using "regular season" loosely, of course]. Who did McGimsie play against that was on such a level?

Quote:
If their competition was equal, then McGimsie would probably be a borderline top 6 ATD center because of his level of dominance in that league.
To say the least! Only one player ever put up McGimsie's video-game goal totals in the AHAC/CAHL, and that was Russell Bowie. The fact that McGimsie's ATD value is 800 picks inferior highlights the vast difference between the quality of the leagues. Bowie, and Scanlan for that matter, weren't playing against teams that would spot you 2 goals just for showing up.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 09-09-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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Old
09-09-2012, 06:07 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Is it really consistency when three of those 4 years he received one vote?
That's exactly my point. A couple of throwaway votes is no basis for evaluating players against each other.


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He has the better voting record.
See above. It's really hard to take 11th-14th place AS voting finishes as being a case for "my guy is definitely better AINEC".


Quote:
Voting record. It appears we have a philosophical difference here, and neither of us is likely to be swayed in either direction.
I doubt that it adds up to a philosophical difference. AS voting can be an important measure of player quality over time, I agree with that. But there is a limit to the relevance of marginal finishes -- when the number of votes is less than a handful, it means little more than that the player was a favorite of a couple of journalists somewhere.

Arguing "better AINEC" because your guy got 3 votes and my guy got 1 is a reach.


Quote:
In those years, McKenny's team made the playoffs 5 times. In those 5 years, overall, he was the #3, #1, #2, #2, and #3. Guevremont's teams made the playoffs 4 times in those 7 years. Overall, he was the #4, #2, #4, and #3. Also, when Guevremont led in ES and Overall, twice that was for a bad Vancouver team who was the 2nd worst team defensively in the entire league both years. Why is Guevremont a better defenseman?
Well, we can begin with your own standard and observe that Guevremont's and McKenny's All Star voting peak is identical -- each being 14th -- and Guevremont's was accomplished as a two-way guy in Buffalo as opposed to an offensive specialist in Toronto.

I do acknowledge that McKenny has a small but clear offensive edge -- 0.58 PPG compared to 0.54 during their shared time -- but Guevremont is the better defensive player and never had to be sent to the minors because of his bad attitude and substance abuse.


Quote:
Believe it or not, Robert Picard turned into a bit of a defensive defenseman later in his career where he was actually heavily relied upon on the PK. In addition, he was top 3 in overall TOI on his team 8 times(leading 3 times), and top 3 in ES 7 times(leading 4 times).
The TOI is significant but it doesn't directly say anything about the quality of his defense. Can you corroborate that the numbers came from strategic choice and not necessity?


Quote:
My first pairing isn't always going to be out with my 1st line. Games don't work like that. Each line will spend plenty of time out with each pairing, it's how hockey works.
I realize hockey works that way, but you've given no indication how you intend to match lines or forward/defensive units. I can only guess that the better players will play together, unless you say otherwise.

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Old
09-09-2012, 08:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
That's exactly my point. A couple of throwaway votes is no basis for evaluating players against each other.

See above. It's really hard to take 11th-14th place AS voting finishes as being a case for "my guy is definitely better AINEC".

I doubt that it adds up to a philosophical difference. AS voting can be an important measure of player quality over time, I agree with that. But there is a limit to the relevance of marginal finishes -- when the number of votes is less than a handful, it means little more than that the player was a favorite of a couple of journalists somewhere.

Arguing "better AINEC" because your guy got 3 votes and my guy got 1 is a reach.
What better metric can you offer to evaluate these players from different eras?
Quote:
Well, we can begin with your own standard and observe that Guevremont's and McKenny's All Star voting peak is identical -- each being 14th -- and Guevremont's was accomplished as a two-way guy in Buffalo as opposed to an offensive specialist in Toronto.

I do acknowledge that McKenny has a small but clear offensive edge -- 0.58 PPG compared to 0.54 during their shared time -- but Guevremont is the better defensive player and never had to be sent to the minors because of his bad attitude and substance abuse.
How is this evidence that Guevremont is a better overall player? I just showed you that McKenny was more relied upon overall and at ES by better quality teams than Guevremont. Add on the fact that McKenny clearly has better offensive ability, you have not provided anything to prove that your guys are better. You did the same thing when I looked at the first pairing too. I provided previously universally accepted TOI, statistics, and award voting to prove that my pairings were better. You basically ignored all the statistics and said my guys are just better. Their voting peaks are not the same. The finish might be the same, but it's clearly more impressive that McKenny received 3 votes, and Guevremont received just one.

Quote:
The TOI is significant but it doesn't directly say anything about the quality of his defense. Can you corroborate that the numbers came from strategic choice and not necessity?
Here's a list of defensemen that Jim McKenny was ahead of in both overall and ES TOI: Tim Horton(near the end of his career), Rick Ley, Jim Dorey, Bob Baun(near the end of his career, Ian Turnbull, Rod Seiling, and Pat Quinn. Here's a list of guys that Guevremont was ahead of: Dennis Kearns, Dale Tallon, Pat Quinn, Bob Dailey, Jim Schoenfeld(for one year), and Bill Hajt. I think it's safe to say McKenny got ice time ahead of better guys. With the exception of Schoenfeld and Hajt, those guys were taken in the MLD, or haven't even been taken yet. Turnbull, Ley, Seiling, Horton, and Baun were all ATD picks, although Horton and Baun were towards the tail end of their careers. The coach deliberately gave Jim McKenny more overall and ES time than those players in his prime.

Quote:
I realize hockey works that way, but you've given no indication how you intend to match lines or forward/defensive units. I can only guess that the better players will play together, unless you say otherwise.
I stated above that I plan on basically rolling lines for the majority of the game. If you want to give your 3rd line more time to my top 6 forwards at the expense of having your most talented players on the ice, that's fine with me. Once the 3rd period approaches, if we need to protect a lead, then the 3rd and 4th lines in addition to my top 2 pairings will be assigned to check your best forwards.

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09-09-2012, 11:46 PM
  #36
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Here are the Winnipeg special teams units to be added:

PP1: Craven-McGimsie-Hergesheimer
McKenny-Niinimaa

PP2: Mickoski-Reay-Stoughton
Hillman-Cooper

PK1: Craven-Reay
Babinov-Hillman

PK2: Stemkowski-Kennedy
Cooper-Picard

PK3: Gracie-Backes
Babinov-Picard

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09-10-2012, 12:30 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
What better metric can you offer to evaluate these players from different eras?
There are too many metrics to list. Voting results are just one piece of the puzzle -- a piece that gets smaller and smaller as the number of votes diminishes.


Quote:
How is this evidence that Guevremont is a better overall player?
To phrase it more formulaically: McKenny's 0.04 lead in ppg doesn't overcome his lack of defense and toxic personality.

Quote:
You did the same thing when I looked at the first pairing too. I provided previously universally accepted TOI, statistics, and award voting to prove that my pairings were better. You basically ignored all the statistics and said my guys are just better.
I recall pointing out that my first pairing is MUCH better offensively while still being adequate defensively. You didn't object or ask for more detail, so I assumed you agreed.

Quote:
Their voting peaks are not the same. The finish might be the same, but it's clearly more impressive that McKenny received 3 votes, and Guevremont received just one.
That's "clearly" more impressive in the same sense that 0.04 points per game is "clearly" better. It's "clear" but it's a very small and unconvincing margin.


Quote:
The coach deliberately gave Jim McKenny more overall and ES time than those players in his prime.
edit: I just realized you gave me an answer about McKenny's ice time, not Picard's. Can you corroborate that Picard was getting his ice time over worthy defensive players?

BTW, I just want to note that the season McKenny got all that TOI, Toronto had the 9th worst defense out of 12 teams and finished last in their division. Even the no-defense, expansion Penguins let in fewer goals with the immortal Al Smith as their #1 goalie. The list of names behind McKenny is impressive, but his defensive results were flat-out horrible. Perhaps it would have been better not to put him out there so much.


Quote:
I stated above that I plan on basically rolling lines for the majority of the game. If you want to give your 3rd line more time to my top 6 forwards at the expense of having your most talented players on the ice, that's fine with me. Once the 3rd period approaches, if we need to protect a lead, then the 3rd and 4th lines in addition to my top 2 pairings will be assigned to check your best forwards.
Burns will act as a shadow on McGimsie; that doesn't mean they will be inseparably handcuffed. One thing I think we can fairly say about both teams is that the coaches are pretty good and will reliably make adjustments as necessary. I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities for my top-6, and if you want to put McGimsie and Hergesheimer out there against Nilsson and Kehoe in a defensive situation, more power to you. I'm happy with the matchups however you want to play them.


Last edited by tarheelhockey: 09-10-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Old
09-10-2012, 12:51 AM
  #38
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I'm also still waiting for you to explain how it's unacceptable for Langlois to be a #3 defenseman in the Original Six but it's ok for Larry Hillman to have not even been a full-time NHL'er until he landed on an expansion team at age 30.

Ice time doesn't get much worse than "sent to the minors".

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09-10-2012, 01:20 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Goaltending
Here are the relevant voting records for the starters:

Beaupre

AS: 4, 4, 6, 7, 9
Vezina: 5, 6

Karkas

AS: 2, 3, 3, 5
Vezina: didn't exist at the time
Let's flesh this out a little bit more.


Mike Karakas

1935-36 All Star
1. Tiny Thompson
2. Wilf Cude
3. Mike Karakas

1936-37 All Star
1. Normie Smith
2. Wilf Cude
3. Tiny Thompson
4. Dave Kerr
5. Mike Karakas

1943-44 All Star
1. Bill Durnan
2. Paul Bibeault
3. Mike Karakas

1944-45 All Star
1. Bill Durnan
2. Mike Karakas




Don Beaupre

1980-81 All Star
1. Mike Liut
2. Mario Lessard
3. Don Edwards
4. Don Beaupre

1981-82 All Star
...
9. Dennis Herron
10. Mike Liut
11. Dan Bouchard
12. Don Beaupre

1982-83 All Star
...
8. Richard Brodeur
9. Reggie Lemelin
10. Mike Palmateer
11. Don Beaupre

1985-86 Vezina
1. John Vanbiesbrouck
2. Bob Froese
3. Grant Fuhr
4. Clint Malarchuk
5. Don Beaupre

1985-86 All Star
1. John Vanbiesbrouck
2. Bob Froese
3. Grant Fuhr
4. Clint Malarchuk
5. Al Jensen
6. Andy Moog
7. Don Beaupre

1990-91 Vezina
1. Ed Belfour
2. Patrick Roy
3. Mike Richter
4. Kelly Hrudey
5. Andy Moog
6. Vincent Riendeau
7. Don Beaupre

1990-91 All Star
1. Ed Belfour
2. Patrick Roy
3. Andy Moog
4. Don Beaupre

1991-92 All Star
1. Patrick Roy
2. Kirk McLean
3. Ed Belfour
4. Bob Essensa
5. Tim Chevaldae
6. Don Beaupre


.......................


Beaupre was part of a class of goaltenders which was just icky from an all-time perspective. Out of those 9 lists, there's only one time that he isn't voted behind an undrafted goalie.

Aside from a one-off season by Bibeault, Karakas was never listed behind a goalie with less than decent all-time value. Cude is the only other goalie who even dropped to the MLD, all others are ATD'ers. And of course he was a Bill Durnan away from a 1st All Star.

And that's not even getting into Karakas' 1938 Cup run, which is the biggest playoff performance between the two of them. TBH, I'm not sure why Beaupre is starting over Ranford in the playoffs.

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09-10-2012, 03:08 AM
  #40
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And that's not even getting into Karakas' 1938 Cup run, which is the biggest playoff performance between the two of them. TBH, I'm not sure why Beaupre is starting over Ranford in the playoffs.
I was confused by that too. Beaupre is a good backup in this but Ranford simply bring more to the table. He weren't that bad in his twillight with Detroit either, obviously not great but you could still see how he raised his level of play once the games were on the line.

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09-10-2012, 10:31 AM
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Yeah to be totally honest when I looked into Hillman (and I think I've said this once already, but it is worth raising the issue again to try to gauge some of his value) I came away somewhat unimpressed for what his voting record looks like. He played over 20 years and still doesn't have 1000 games played combined between the NHL and his last three WHA years. He played 19 seasons in the NHL, and has 790 games played, which is a little over 41 games played per year. I know he was behind everyone and their mother in Toronto, but still he has 0 ASGs on merit, played for 17 teams in 22 years, and even after he left Toronto he was said to be described as "a depth defender who can help young guys develop" according to Joe Pelletier.

He just doesn't scream "top pairing defenseman" in this draft to me at all.

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09-10-2012, 12:00 PM
  #42
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I was confused by that too. Beaupre is a good backup in this but Ranford simply bring more to the table. He weren't that bad in his twillight with Detroit either, obviously not great but you could still see how he raised his level of play once the games were on the line.
Throughout his career, Beaupre consistently found himself outplayed by partners who are not MLD-starter quality.
  • After coming out of the gates hot as a rookie, he got fewer starts than Gilles Meloche (Yarmouth Mariners' backup behind Cam Ward) in all four of their remaining seasons together.
  • Once Meloche moved on, Beaupre had exactly one season as a secure starter before Minnesota management decided to platoon him with Kari Takko (never drafted). Eventually he was dumped in favor of a duo of Takko and Jon Casey (who typically goes in the 1500 range).
  • Beaupre had to wait almost a whole season to get playing time ahead of Clint Malarchuk (never drafted) in Washington.
  • Beaupre stumbled into the starting position when Pete Peeters immediately left the Caps in free agency, and made the most of it for about three years. As soon as he started getting outplayed by Rick Tabarraci (never drafted), the Caps dumped him for a 5th.
  • Landing with the lowly Sens, Beaupre managed to hang onto his job for one season before getting traded for Damian Rhodes (never drafted), whose save percentage in about the same number of games was 0.029 higher for the same team.
  • In Toronto he was not even close to threatening Felix Potvin (Pittsburgh Hornets backup behind Pete Peeters). To his credit, he managed to fend off a few contenders for the starting job in St. John's.
  • He was done in the Leafs organization when it became apparent that he couldn't win the backup job over Marcel Cousineau (needless to say, never drafted).
  • In a rather sad finish to his career, he meandered over to Utah of the IHL where he was thoroughly outplayed not only by Tommy Soderstrom (never drafted) but also Mark MacArthur, who never even played in the NHL.

In an ATD context, Beaupre is nothing but a "hot hand" goalie whose play will fall off sharply as the games wear on. By the end of the series, he's a guy who will lose games you should have won.

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09-10-2012, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
1st Pairings

Here are the voting records of members of each top pairing:

Ellett: 16th AS 1990(3 voting points), 22nd AS 1987(2 voting points)
Maxwell: 19th AS 1984(1 voting point)
Hillman: 12th AS 1966(3 voting points, 3 2nd place votes), 11th Norris 1973(2 voting points), 14th AS 1970(7 voting points)
Cooper: 8th AS 1940(1 voting point), 13th AS 1942(2 voting points)

I think it's clear Hillman is definitely the best defenseman on either pairing, and I don't think it's very close.
He may or may not be, but these stupidly low voting totals (20 total career voting points across 4 players) prove absolutely nothing. It means that in a couple seasons, 1, 2 or 3 out of as many as 100 voters thought they were top-3 in the league.... and none of them ever really were, right? So we're basing this on a very small majority of writers - who were wrong.

if it happens more often than this and for more than 1, 2, 3 voting points a few times then it starts to have some value but this is pretty poor.

Quote:
I'm not a big fan of Langlois. In his years in Montreal, he was at best the #4 behind Harvey, Johnson, and Talbot. His time in NY is similar where he was behind Howell, Harvey, and Neilson. It's certainly no crime for him to be stuck behind those guys, but the fact that he was a top 3 defenseman for maybe 2-3 years of his career is not great.
so then don't ever draft an O6 defenseman in the MLD again.

seriously though, you have to think about what it means to just last in the NHL, when just the top 30 defensemen in the world (or so) could make it. And by lasting that long and earning some scattered votes it probably means he was conservatively about 20th-best during that particular time.

how much bigger is the talent pool now than then? Everyone has their own interpretation. If it's 1.5X bigger, we're looking at the equivalent of 30th-best today. Would that guy be selected by now? Hell yeah. If it's 3X bigger, we're still looking at 60th-best, a career #2-3 guy. Would that guy be selected by now? Almost certainly.

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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I'm honestly not a fan of judging anything by a statistically-insignificant number of All Star votes. What are we supposed to take away from Cooper getting 1 vote on each side of the Alternate D team in 1942? That he was roughly the 15th-20th best defenseman in a watered down, 7-team league?
At best, that's what it proves. At best.

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It's too bad Langlois didn't stick around for expansion, where he could pull a Larry Hillman and go from being a 4th/5th defenseman in an Original Six context to a journeyman in an expansion/WHA context. Why on earth does Langlois' role as a depth guy bother you when you think Hillman is the best top-pair defender in the series?
Good point!

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You've got Picard, an offensive defenseman who TWICE made the top-10 in GA,
That happens when you get a lot of ice time. Note that he had a ton of GF as well.

It's funny that offensive specialists in this draft who weren't heavily relied on by their teams (like, Tom Bladon, Risto Siltanen, Marek Zidlicky, Oleg Tverdovsky, JVB) can't be criticized in this way, simply because they weren't good enough to get on the ice enough - or enough in defensive and PK situations - to compile high goals against. It's backwards thinking.

And I'm not even a Picard fan.

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09-10-2012, 12:18 PM
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All that is true, but the fact that Brad Maxwell finished as high as 5th in defenseman scoring and regularly finished top 20, yet has bascially nil for All Star votes, does indicate something about how his non-offensive abilities were perceived

On the other hand, Arnie Brown receiving 8 votes in 1967, despite meager point totals is a positive testament to how his defense was viewed.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-10-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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09-10-2012, 01:35 PM
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All that is true, but the fact that Brad Maxwell finished as high as 5th in defenseman scoring and regularly finished top 20, yet has bascially nil for All Star votes, does indicate something about how his non-offensive abilities were perceived
That is a good point, so let me rephrase what I said. It doesn't prove anything positive.

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09-10-2012, 03:58 PM
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To phrase it more formulaically: McKenny's 0.04 lead in ppg doesn't overcome his lack of defense and toxic personality.
I'm not concerned about McKenny boozing in the locker room. Punch Imlach was about as polarizing a coach as you can find, so I don't anticipate any issues with him getting along with Bobby Kromm.

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I recall pointing out that my first pairing is MUCH better offensively while still being adequate defensively. You didn't object or ask for more detail, so I assumed you agreed.
I do agree.
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That's "clearly" more impressive in the same sense that 0.04 points per game is "clearly" better. It's "clear" but it's a very small and unconvincing margin.
It's not .04, it's .08.

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edit: I just realized you gave me an answer about McKenny's ice time, not Picard's. Can you corroborate that Picard was getting his ice time over worthy defensive players?
Rick Green, 32 year old Guy Lapointe(in overall and PK but not ES for the 8 games he was in Montreal), Craig Ludwig, Randy Carlyle(for the 5 games Carlyle was in Winnipeg that year), Dave Ellett(rookie year), Mario Marois, Jeff Brown(early in his career), and Risto Siltanen.

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BTW, I just want to note that the season McKenny got all that TOI, Toronto had the 9th worst defense out of 12 teams and finished last in their division. Even the no-defense, expansion Penguins let in fewer goals with the immortal Al Smith as their #1 goalie. The list of names behind McKenny is impressive, but his defensive results were flat-out horrible. Perhaps it would have been better not to put him out there so much.
This should explain things:

Jim McKenny

YearOverall TOI RankES RankDefense Rank
69-701st2nd8th of 12
70-713rd4th5th of 14
71-721st2nd6th of 14
72-731st1st11th of 14
73-742nd3rd4th of 16
74-752nd2nd13th of 18
76-773rd3rd10th of 18

Jocelyn Guevremont

YearOverall TOI RankES RankDefense Rank
71-721st1st13th of 14
72-731st1st15th of 16
73-742nd5th14th of 16
74-754th4th6th of 18
75-762nd1st6th of 18
76-774th4th4th of 18
77-783rd4th4th of 18

As we know, when Guevremont was relied upon heavily early in his career, he was terrible. Things improved when he went to Buffalo, but I can't help but think the fact that he was playing mostly behind Bill Hajt/Jim Schoenfeld/Jerry Korab and had Don Luce and Craig Ramsay ahead of him had a good bit to do with it. 75-76 is an impressive year, but the rest of the time in Buffalo, Guevremont was not the catalyst for those results. Of the times McKenny was top 3 in ES and overall, his teams were an average of 8.67th out of 15.3 teams. When Guevremont was top 3 in ES and overall, his teams were an average of 11.33th out of 16. I think it's safe to say this is one of the most extensively debated 2nd pairing MLD defenseman comparisons of all time.

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09-10-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
All that is true, but the fact that Brad Maxwell finished as high as 5th in defenseman scoring and regularly finished top 20, yet has bascially nil for All Star votes, does indicate something about how his non-offensive abilities were perceived
Dave Ellett is somewhat similar as well. For 7 years, he finished in the top 23 in points among defensemen, but barely received any recognition at all, in just 2 years total.

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09-10-2012, 04:40 PM
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Dave Ellett is somewhat similar as well. For 7 years, he finished in the top 23 in points among defensemen, but barely received any recognition at all, in just 2 years total.
Oh yeah, I remember when Ellett came to the Devils. He was considered something of a "project" defensively - not terrible, but still with definite room for improvement. And that was pretty late in his career.

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09-10-2012, 05:22 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Rick Green, 32 year old Guy Lapointe(in overall and PK but not ES for the 8 games he was in Montreal),Craig Ludwig, Randy Carlyle(for the 5 games Carlyle was in Winnipeg that year), Dave Ellett(rookie year), Mario Marois, Jeff Brown(early in his career), and Risto Stiltanen.
An ice time estimate based on 8 games is basically meaningless. Not enough available data to work with.

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09-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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Here are the goals by Rat Portage (Billy McGimsie's team) from the 1905 Ottawa/Rat Portage series according to the box scores in the Montreal Gazette.

GAME 1
Phillips (4)
Griffis (3)
Bellefueille
Hooper

GAME 2
Griffis
Hooper

GAME 3
Phillips (3)
Hooper


These correctly add up to 9, 2 and 4, Rat Portage's goal totals in the series.

McGimsie = 0 goals

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