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MLD 2012 Mickey Ion QF: Winston-Salem Polar Twins vs. Winnipeg Monarchs

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Old
09-11-2012, 02:38 PM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Here are the goals by Rat Portage (Billy McGimsie's team) from the 1905 Ottawa/Rat Portage series according to the box scores in the Montreal Gazette.

GAME 1
Phillips (4)
Griffis (3)
Bellefueille
Hooper

GAME 2
Griffis
Hooper

GAME 3
Phillips (3)
Hooper


These correctly add up to 9, 2 and 4, Rat Portage's goal totals in the series.

McGimsie = 0 goals
That was the year Ottawa was accused of purposely slushing the ice to slow the faster Thistles down, and yeah, Tommy Phillips seemed to deal with it a lot better than McGimsie.

McGimsie reportedly played well in the 1903 and 1906 Cup challenges, though.

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09-11-2012, 02:44 PM
  #52
tarheelhockey
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It makes me wonder where the SIHR number came from...

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09-11-2012, 02:46 PM
  #53
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It makes me wonder where the SIHR number came from...
Wouldn't be the first time SiHR was wrong...

Hobokin.net's very detailed McGimsie profile also has him with no goals that year:
http://hobokin.net/mcgimsie.html

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09-11-2012, 03:33 PM
  #54
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SIHR seems to be a very flawed site when it comes to pre-expansion players.

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09-11-2012, 03:41 PM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
SIHR seems to be a very flawed site when it comes to pre-expansion players.
Do you have any other examples?

This is the first statistical error I've seen for a North American league. I've seen errors and incomplete records for international tournaments and European domestic leagues on SIHR, which isn't encouraging

The only other error I've seen with regards to North American players is that the database regularly lists the wrong position for pre-NHA players, which made it impossible to figure out Weldy Young's "points among defensemen" when I tried to calculate it

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09-11-2012, 03:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do you have any other examples?

This is the first statistical error I've seen for a North American league. I've seen errors and incomplete records for international tournaments and European domestic leagues on SIHR, which isn't encouraging

The only other error I've seen with regards to North American players is that the database regularly lists the wrong position for pre-NHA players, which made it impossible to figure out Weldy Young's "points among defensemen" when I tried to calculate it
I know only about another player but I cant for the life of me remember who it were. There was a legthy discussion about it though. Maybe somebody here remembers.

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09-11-2012, 04:28 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Here are the goals by Rat Portage (Billy McGimsie's team) from the 1905 Ottawa/Rat Portage series according to the box scores in the Montreal Gazette.

GAME 1
Phillips (4)
Griffis (3)
Bellefueille
Hooper

GAME 2
Griffis
Hooper

GAME 3
Phillips (3)
Hooper


These correctly add up to 9, 2 and 4, Rat Portage's goal totals in the series.

McGimsie = 0 goals
HR and hobokin.net both had him at 0 goals in that series.

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Old
09-11-2012, 05:39 PM
  #58
Rob Scuderi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I wasn't clear what I was asking -- who was McGimsie's competition during hockey games? How many of his non-teammates are noteworthy players?

Scanlan played against teams like the Silver Seven and Montreal AAA as part of his regular season [edit: using "regular season" loosely, of course]. Who did McGimsie play against that was on such a level?



To say the least! Only one player ever put up McGimsie's video-game goal totals in the AHAC/CAHL, and that was Russell Bowie. The fact that McGimsie's ATD value is 800 picks inferior highlights the vast difference between the quality of the leagues. Bowie, and Scanlan for that matter, weren't playing against teams that would spot you 2 goals just for showing up.
This was asked awhile ago and while I can't drop a ton of names, I can tell you how I understand the western leagues were set up and give you a sense of their strength. I don't have an SIHR membership and used wikipedia for some of these leagues but it seems to make sense.

There were two split leagues until the 1904-05 season. McGimsie played in the Manitoba & Northwestern Hockey Association(MNWHA) from 1902-1904. This was a three team league consisting of the Rat Portage Thistles, Brandon Wheat Cities, and Portage la Prairie Plains. During these three years, Rat Portage and Brandon both challenged for the Stanley Cup once.

(Best-of-three format at this time)
  • In March 1903, Ottawa beat Rat Portage (MNWHA) in two games (10-4)
  • In March 1904, Ottawa beat Brandon (MNWHA) in two games (15-6)

After the 1903-04 season ended all three MNWHA clubs join the two clubs from what I'm calling the Winnipeg Senior Hockey League to form the MHL. McGimsie now competes with the Winnipeg Victorias and the Winnipeg Rowing Club. The Rowing Club featured Breen, but I am unsure if any of the big guns were still with the Vics (Bain was gone, was Gingras?). They were the Western equivalent of Montreal AAA, but they were already on the downswing by the time McGimsie started playing them in 04-05.

All that said, this is certainly a more competitive environment than McGimsie's first three years, so he deserves credit for peaking then. During these two seasons he put up ridiculous numbers Rat Portage/Kenora won the league championships. He outscored Breen and Phillips in '04-'05 before being bested by both in '05-'06. During these two season Rat Portage/Kenora was the only western team to compete for the Stanley Cup with the condensed league.

Kenora again won the league championship in '06-'07, which turned pro and lost the Vics and Winnipegs, and again challenged for the Stanley Cup winning this time. They did lose their first challenge however (McGimsie was hurt and didn't play) and McGimsie retired before the start of the next season.
  • March 1905, Ottawa beat Rat Portage (MHL) in 3 games (12-15)
  • 1906, no challengers from West
(format switches to 2 game total goals taking the win)
  • January 1907, Montreal Wanderers lost to Kenora (MHL) 8-12 (Kenora wins both games)
  • March 1907, Kenora loses to Montreal Wanderers (ECAHA) 8-12 (Montreal wins game 1, Kenora wins game 2)

That didn't help give you concrete answers of who exactly McGimsie was beating, but I think you have to give credit to the Western leagues for being the best Canada had to offer after the CAHL/ECAHA. The FAHL was obviously better the year they had Ottawa and the Wanderers but Smith Falls is the best McGimsie-overlapping FAHL club who were a one-time league champion and unsuccessful Stanley Cup challenger led by Percy LeSueur. It may also be worth noting some of the talent during McGimsie's career was lured to the WPHL or IPHL with their salaries.

I think by looking at how the Stanley Cup did and didn't move during the various challenges in McGimsie's career you can see the strength of the Thistles a bit better. How much credit McGimsie deserves for that is certainly an open question, but I was definitely impressed that they were essentially one of three teams to be relevant on the Stanley Cup level after the Winnipeg Vics and Montreal AAA wound down. Especially considering the other two teams were powerhouses in the most competitive leagues of the time.

(Teams representing McGimsie's league are bolded)
'02 - Stanley Cup held by Winnipeg Vics (WSHL)
Beat Toronto (OHA) in 2 games (10-6)
Lost to Montreal AAA (CAHL) in 3 games (2-7)

'03 - Stanley Cup held by Montreal (CAHL)
Beat Winnipeg Vics (WSHL) in 3 games (14-6)
Ottawa HC takes control of Stanley Cup beating Montreal in CAHL season's 2 game playoff (9-1)
Beat Rat Portage (MNWHA) in 2 games (10-4)

'04 - Stanley Cup held by Ottawa (CAHL)
Beat Winnipeg Rowing Club (WSHL) in 3 games (11-7)
Beat Toronto (OHA) in 2 games (17-5)
Montreal Wanderers (FAHL) DQ'd for refusing to play
Beat Brandon (MNWHA) in 2 games (15-6)

'05 - Stanley Cup held by Ottawa (FAHL)
Beat Dawson City (Yukon) in 2 games (31-4)
Beat Rat Portage (MHL) in 3 games (12-15)

'06 - Stanley Cup held by Ottawa (ECAHA)
Beat Queen's University (OHA) in 2 games (28-14)
Beat Smiths Falls (FAHL) in 2 games (14-7)
Montreal Wanderers take control of Stanley Cup beating Ottawa in 2 game total goal ECAHA playoff winning with 12 goals to 10 for Ottawa who won Game 2

'07 - Stanley Cup held by Montreal Wanderers (ECAHA); format switches to 2 game total goals taking the win
Beat New Glasgow Cubs (Novia Scotia) 17-5 (Montreal wins both games)
Lost to Kenora (MHL) 8-12 (Kenora wins both games)
Lost to Montreal (ECAHA) 8-12 (Montreal wins game 1, Kenora wins game 2)

Stanley Cup games won by league during McGimsie's career
CAHL/ECAHA - (Ottawa 12, Montreal Wanderers 4, Montreal AAA 4)
MHL - 4 (Kenora 4)
WSHL - 5 (Vics 4, Rowing Club 1)
FAHL - 4 (Ottawa 4)
MNWHA - 0
OHA - 0

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09-11-2012, 06:33 PM
  #59
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Quote:
How much credit McGimsie deserves for that is certainly an open question, but I was definitely impressed that they were essentially one of three teams to be relevant on the Stanley Cup level after the Winnipeg Vics and Montreal AAA wound down.
This is the key statement here. I agree 100%.

McGimsie is a tougher nut to crack among MLD-level centers.

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09-12-2012, 12:30 PM
  #60
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
It makes me wonder where the SIHR number came from...
Bear in mind that there was no such thing as an official game reports at the time. Sometimes, different newspapers would disagree on who scored certain goals. You tend to go with the majority when necessary, but it obviously can depend on what you rely on as a source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
There were two split leagues until the 1904-05 season. McGimsie played in the Manitoba & Northwestern Hockey Association(MNWHA) from 1902-1904. This was a three team league consisting of the Rat Portage Thistles, Brandon Wheat Cities, and Portage la Prairie Plains. During these three years, Rat Portage and Brandon both challenged for the Stanley Cup once.

(Best-of-three format at this time)
  • In March 1903, Ottawa beat Rat Portage (MNWHA) in two games (10-4)
  • In March 1904, Ottawa beat Brandon (MNWHA) in two games (15-6)

After the 1903-04 season ended all three MNWHA clubs join the two clubs from what I'm calling the Winnipeg Senior Hockey League to form the MHL. McGimsie now competes with the Winnipeg Victorias and the Winnipeg Rowing Club. The Rowing Club featured Breen, but I am unsure if any of the big guns were still with the Vics (Bain was gone, was Gingras?). They were the Western equivalent of Montreal AAA, but they were already on the downswing by the time McGimsie started playing them in 04-05.
If you want some detail, the Manitoba and Northwest Hockey Association was created in 1891, and until 1903 the only senior-level team that played in the league were based in Winnipeg. In the years leading up to 1903 the rural Manitoba intermediate-level teams, Brandon and Portage, and the Rat Portage intermediates, developed to such a level that they were really outclassing the Winnipegs and Vics second teams that they competed against. There was a kerfuffle in 1903 that wound up with all three non-Winnipeg teams being given admission to the senior level.

The Vics and Pegs, who didn't like this development, decided to leave the MNWHA and formed their own league, the Western Canada Hockey Association (WCHA). They took their pucks and went home, essentially.

This situation persisted for a couple of season when finally saner heads prevailed and the Winnipeg teams came back into the fold, and joined with the other teams to form the Manitoba Hockey League in 1904, which was one of the strongest leagues at the time. This was probably the golden era of hockey in Manitoba.

In 1906, the league decided to turn professional. This again caused friction with Winnipeg teams, and the WCHA was revived to allow senior teams who wanted to remain amateur to do so. This was in the early days of the pro hockey boom in Canada, when pro leagues were popping up all over. The pro league only lasted three seasons, and at that point the amateurs took over again, and Manitoba had the strongest amateur league in the country for some time thereafter, dominating early Allan Cup play.

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09-12-2012, 03:16 PM
  #61
tarheelhockey
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Iain, can you give us some insight into the quality of opponents McGimsie would have faced in those leagues? IE, subtract the Thistles and how do the MNWHA and MHL stack up against the AHAC/CAHL/ECAHA and other relevant leagues of the time?

I feel like that's the biggest question mark surrounding his goal totals, and what they mean compared to his peers in other leagues. Unfortunately there's damn near nothing online about teams other than the Thistles.

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09-13-2012, 03:14 PM
  #62
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We've talked a lot about McGimsie (though perhaps not enough to really get to the bottom of it) and Bronco Horvath in this thread, so here is a look at the other centers in this series.

Monarchs

Billy Reay
- Primarily the 2nd line center on his Montreal teams during the late 40s and early 50s, behind Elmer Lach.
- Played senior amateur hockey until age 27, and was subsequently denied a passport by the Canadian government to play in Detroit, because he hadn't done any military service. Thus he ended up in Montreal instead.
- 15 centermen played >350 games between 1946 and 1953. Among them, Reay was tied for 14th in points per game and 7th in PIM. The only one with fewer PPG than Reay was his third-line teammate Ken Mosdell.
- In two of Reay's best three seasons, his point totals were inflated by playing on the first line with Maurice Richard due to injuries to Lach.
- Reay is listed at 5'7", 155lb, which was small even by 1950s standards.

Pete Stemkowski
- Faceoff specialist who had some pretty good scoring runs in the playoffs. As third line centers go, he's pretty solid.

Forbes Kennedy
- Another small center at only 5'8", which again is very small considering he played until 1969.
- He had one decent scoring year where he was the 3rd scoring center on his team, but generally he is a pure defensive player and penalty killer at this level.
- While his penalty killing is solid, it is offset somewhat by the fact that he himself is a penalty risk.



Polar Twins

Ulf Nilsson
- 1st Team All Star in this year's MLD voting.
- Acquitted himself well in the WHA (by far the fewest GP of any top-10 scorer in that league), the NHL and international competition.
- Really, his only downside as a 1st-line center is injury problems.
- Was the highest paid hockey player in the world for a time.

Charlie Burns
- As good as it gets defensively at this level. He shadowed the stars of the Golden Era head-to-head and has by far the highest penalty kill percentage of anyone with more than 400GP.
- Not a superb offensive player, but as bottom-6ers go he was an ok playmaker.
- One of the many bottom-6 players who got a new lease on life after expansion.

Stephane Yelle
- In the lineup essentially as a pure faceoff specialist and penalty killer. Not asked to do anything offensively. Similar to Forbes Kennedy without the agitation dynamic.

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09-13-2012, 03:29 PM
  #63
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Size Down the Middle

Monarchs
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Billy McGimsie5'8"145lb1910s
Billy Reay5'7"155lb1940s-50s
Pete Stemkowski6'1"196lb1960s-70s
Forbes Kennedy5'8"150lb1950s-60s
Alexei Zhamnov6'1"187lb1990s-00s
Pat Boutette5'8"175lb1970s-80s

Polar Twins
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Ulf Nilsson5'11"175lb1970s-80s
Bronco Horvath5'11"185lb1950s-60s
Charlie Burns5'11"170lb1960s-70s
Stephane Yelle6'2"182lb1990s-00s
Dolly Swift??1880s-90s

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09-13-2012, 03:40 PM
  #64
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Size on Defense

Monarchs
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Larry Hillman6'0"1851950s-60s-70s
Joe Cooper6'2"2001930s-40s
Jim McKenny5'11"1921960s-70s
Sergei Babinov5'11"1801970s-80s
Robert Picard6'2"2071980s-90s
Janne Niinimaa6'1"2201990s-00s
Keith Carney6'1"2071990s-00s
Oleg Tverdovsky6'1"2111990s-00s

Polar Twins
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Brad Maxwell6'2"1951970s-80s
Dave Ellett6'2"2051980s-90s
Albert Langlois6'0"2051950s-60s
Jocelyn Guevremont6'2"2001970s
Arnie Brown6'1"1851960s-70s
Garth Butcher6'0"2041980s-90s
Udo Kiessling5'10"1801970s-80s-90s
Dolly Swift??1880s-90s

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09-13-2012, 04:19 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey
- In two of Reay's best three seasons, his point totals were inflated by playing on the first line with Maurice Richard due to injuries to Lach.
I thought Ken Mosdell was the guy promoted to the top line when Lach was injured?

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09-13-2012, 04:40 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Ken Mosdell was the guy promoted to the top line when Lach was injured?
He may very well have been -- I might have got that wrong based off a newspaper quote. But the numbers make more sense with Reay as the top-line guy.

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09-13-2012, 07:01 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought Ken Mosdell was the guy promoted to the top line when Lach was injured?
I'm pretty sure he was.

Quote:
For the next 10 years, Mosdell was a standout with the Canadiens, playing on Cup winners in 1953 and '56. He did more than play solid defence. In an era when 20 goals was a solid contribution, he had back-to-back 22-goal seasons in 1953-54 and 1954-55. He really benefit from Elmer Lach's chronic injuries. When Lach was hurt, Mosdell assumed the top center spot playing with Rocket Richard and Bert Olmstead. When Lach was back on the ice, Mosdell returned to his defensive concentrations, never once complaining.
Quote:
When he did earn a regular role with the Canadiens, the wiry center became known for his penalty-killing and defensive work. "They only let me play offense twice when Elmer Lach was hurt," Mosdell said of his role with the team. His solid play helped anchor Montreal for another Stanley Cup victory in 1953.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...p?player=13789

http://habslegends.blogspot.com/2008...n-mosdell.html

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09-13-2012, 07:08 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Size Down the Middle

Monarchs
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Billy McGimsie5'8"145lb1910s
Billy Reay5'7"155lb1940s-50s
Pete Stemkowski6'1"196lb1960s-70s
Forbes Kennedy5'8"150lb1950s-60s
Alexei Zhamnov6'1"187lb1990s-00s
Pat Boutette5'8"175lb1970s-80s

Polar Twins
PlayerHeightWeightEra
Ulf Nilsson5'11"175lb1970s-80s
Bronco Horvath5'11"185lb1950s-60s
Charlie Burns5'11"170lb1960s-70s
Stephane Yelle6'2"182lb1990s-00s
Dolly Swift??1880s-90s
Your centers might be bigger, but I don't see that as being a problem. My centers are significantly tougher than yours are. Kennedy is tougher than any of your centers despite being a good bit smaller, Reay was known as a tough little sparkplug, Stemkowski(the biggest of all the centers when era is considered) was consistently around 70-80PIM. Nilsson took his licks and proved he could play a North American game, but didn't dole anything out. Horvath has no toughness as far as I know, and neither do Burns or Yelle.

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09-13-2012, 08:06 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Your centers might be bigger, but I don't see that as being a problem. My centers are significantly tougher than yours are. Kennedy is tougher than any of your centers despite being a good bit smaller, Reay was known as a tough little sparkplug, Stemkowski(the biggest of all the centers when era is considered) was consistently around 70-80PIM. Nilsson took his licks and proved he could play a North American game, but didn't dole anything out. Horvath has no toughness as far as I know, and neither do Burns or Yelle.
If the Winnipeg centers' idea of "using their size" is to play gritty and take a bunch of penalties, they are welcome to it. Size down the middle is much more than a toughness advantage. Guys like Burns and Yelle were tough to play against where it counted -- shutting down the opponent's best players -- rather than in the penalty box.

Besides, the Twins have plenty of grit on the wings and defense. This is a Cherry team, they aren't getting pushed around.

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09-13-2012, 08:18 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
If the Winnipeg centers' idea of "using their size" is to play gritty and take a bunch of penalties, they are welcome to it. Size down the middle is much more than a toughness advantage. Guys like Burns and Yelle were tough to play against where it counted -- shutting down the opponent's best players -- rather than in the penalty box.

Besides, the Twins have plenty of grit on the wings and defense. This is a Cherry team, they aren't getting pushed around.
Since when does two wingers that are tough mean you have plenty of grit on the wings? Dornhoefer and Brown bring toughness, but Scanlan, Juneau, Henning, Boll, Bernier, and Kehoe bring none. I'm not concerned about my centers taking ridiculous amounts of penalties because they won't. Kennedy will take some penalties, but Reay didn't take many penalties despite playing a sparkplug style. So when your guys are undisciplined and take loads of penalties(see Butcher and Maxwell) it's playing with grit. When my guys have high penalty minute totals, it's because they're hotheads and a cancer to the team like Kennedy and Tucker.

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09-13-2012, 08:26 PM
  #71
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I just noticed this, but Jocelyn Guevremont on a PK in the MLD is just bad. He had 3 seasons of heavy usage where his teams were 3.85%, 4.43%, and 6.93% below the league average. Then he got to Buffalo, and they sat him on the bench where he deserved to be. He had 2 seasons of 4th in PK time among defensemen on a good PKing Buffalo team. But I think it's safe to say Craig Ramsay, Don Luce, Bill Hajt, Jim Schoenfeld, Jerry Korab, and a smaller rink had a little bit more to do with that than Guevremont. He's a huge weak link on an MLD PK.

I'd also like to say the 2nd PP unit for Winston-Salem is very weak. Dustin Brown's career high in points is 60. Serge Bernier also broke 60 just once in his time in the NHL with 68 points.

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09-13-2012, 09:23 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I just noticed this, but Jocelyn Guevremont on a PK in the MLD is just bad.
No worse than Joe Cooper quarterbacking the PP.

Guevremont isn't an ideal PK defenseman, but he is also on the second unit with three pretty good linemates. And by design, at the end of the PP the Twins roll out their 1st line and 1st D-pairing -- so you damn well better score on that opportunity because it will be coming right back at your team on the post-PP momentum shift. Across a 7-game series, those factors will balance out. And if he is absolutely unable to handle it, he can be benched for Brad Maxwell. No biggie.

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I'd also like to say the 2nd PP unit for Winston-Salem is very weak. Dustin Brown's career high in points is 60. Serge Bernier also broke 60 just once in his time in the NHL with 68 points.
Brown's total points are irrelevant. In 06-07 he was 11th among LWs in power-play goals behind Kovalchuk, Semin, Malkin, Ovechkin, Sedin, Smyth, Vanek, Blake, Huselius and Shanahan. In 07-08 he was 5th among RWs behind Kovalev, Knuble, Iginla and Sykora. Even last year he was a respectable 8th among RWs and only one PPG behind the likes of Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Daniel Sedin. On his own team he tied or outscored Kopitar all three of those seasons. In fact, hard as this is to believe, only once in their careers on the same team has Kopitar outscored Brown on the PP.

I don't blame you for underrating him -- I had no idea he was a PP goal scorer until I drafted him and noticed the numbers. The beauty of his placement here is that he might chip in a goal here and there, but he isn't meant to be the triggerman. His job is to cause a ruckus in front of the net, screen the goalie, cause pileups in the crease, and occasionally draw a 5-on-3. Even if he doesn't score a point in the game summary, he can do his job and lead the team to a goal.

Bernier is an obviously PP-worthy offensive player. His modest career-high in the NHL is a product of playing his peak years in the WHA, where he was among the leading scorers at a time when that meant something. Surely 122 points to Bobby Hull's 142 makes him adequate for an MLD second unit PP.

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09-13-2012, 09:36 PM
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BTW, speaking of Joe Cooper, there's a guy who really does need justifying as a 1st pairing guy who's going to play on both special teams units. He was never a leader in anything but penalty minutes, and his only respectable offensive seasons come during the worst of the WWII seasons. He would be a worthy guy as a third-pairing grinder, but he's WAY over his head here and particularly with a questionable partner in Hillman.

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09-13-2012, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
No worse than Joe Cooper quarterbacking the PP.
Upon further review, Robert Picard is a much better candidate for the 2nd PP unit. Picard will take Cooper's spot there.

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Guevremont isn't an ideal PK defenseman, but he is also on the second unit with three pretty good linemates. And by design, at the end of the PP the Twins roll out their 1st line and 1st D-pairing -- so you damn well better score on that opportunity because it will be coming right back at your team on the post-PP momentum shift. Across a 7-game series, those factors will balance out. And if he is absolutely unable to handle it, he can be benched for Brad Maxwell. No biggie.
I wouldn't call Dustin Brown a good 2nd unit PKer in the MLD. Here are his SH TOI/G ranks among forwards on his team: 14, 2, 4, 5, 7, 5, 5. That's actually pretty terrible now that I look at it. And LA's PK was below the league average in 4 of those years. They weren't good until the last 3 years, when Brown's usage was minimal at best.

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Brown's total points are irrelevant. In 06-07 he was 11th among LWs in power-play goals behind Kovalchuk, Semin, Malkin, Ovechkin, Sedin, Smyth, Vanek, Blake, Huselius and Shanahan. In 07-08 he was 5th among RWs behind Kovalev, Knuble, Iginla and Sykora. Even last year he was a respectable 8th among RWs and only one PPG behind the likes of Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Daniel Sedin. On his own team he tied or outscored Kopitar all three of those seasons. In fact, hard as this is to believe, only once in their careers on the same team has Kopitar outscored Brown on the PP.
I don't care where he ranked among LWs, where did he rank overall? 27th, 18th, 91st, 69th, 55th, and 27th. I'm supposed to be impressed by that? Brown's point totals are irrelevant? That makes no sense. The power play is about scoring goals. Whether you score them, or set them up, the more points you have, the better you probably are at the power play. Brown is not good here, at all.

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I don't blame you for underrating him -- I had no idea he was a PP goal scorer until I drafted him and noticed the numbers. The beauty of his placement here is that he might chip in a goal here and there, but he isn't meant to be the triggerman. His job is to cause a ruckus in front of the net, screen the goalie, cause pileups in the crease, and occasionally draw a 5-on-3. Even if he doesn't score a point in the game summary, he can do his job and lead the team to a goal.
Yeah, I really underrated him here.

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Bernier is an obviously PP-worthy offensive player. His modest career-high in the NHL is a product of playing his peak years in the WHA, where he was among the leading scorers at a time when that meant something. Surely 122 points to Bobby Hull's 142 makes him adequate for an MLD second unit PP.
Hull was 36 at the time and certainly past his prime. Adjust Bernier's best 2 WHA seasons to the NHL and you get 71 and 85 points. Passable, but average at best at this level.

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09-13-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Upon further review, Robert Picard is a much better candidate for the 2nd PP unit. Picard will take Cooper's spot there.
Seems a bit late to make lineup changes now that voting is open, but ok.


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I wouldn't call Dustin Brown a good 2nd unit PKer in the MLD. Here are his SH TOI/G ranks among forwards on his team: 14, 2, 4, 5, 7, 5, 5. That's actually pretty terrible now that I look at it. And LA's PK was below the league average in 4 of those years. They weren't good until the last 3 years, when Brown's usage was minimal at best.
Positions matter. PK'ing centers are logically going to get more ice time than PK'ing wingers in an era of defensive-zone PK starts -- you MUST have someone out there who can reliably win the faceoff. Nearly every single player who has finished ahead of Brown in SH TOI was a center (I didn't count, but it's something along the lines of 18 out of 20, without eliminating duplicates). As a winger, he has been LA's most utilized PK'er by far during his career.

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I don't care where he ranked among LWs, where did he rank overall?
Again, positions matter. 5th, 8th and 11th at his position are significant numbers.

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Brown's point totals are irrelevant? That makes no sense.
Of course it makes sense. Brown gets a huge percentage of his goals on power plays. His even-strength scoring is irrelevant to the conversation.

And again, you are talking about a guy whose job is essentially to muck around in the crease and corners, agitating the goalie and opposing defenders. He is not intended to be a scoring dynamo here, but part of a unit.

And with Forbes Kennedy on your second PK unit, you can be pretty well guaranteed that will translate to some 5-on-3 time for the Twins during this series.

Quote:
Hull was 36 at the time and certainly past his prime. Adjust Bernier's best 2 WHA seasons to the NHL and you get 71 and 85 points. Passable, but average at best at this level.
A past his prime Bobby Hull would be the best player in this draft. Bernier was close to his class at his peak, and that is proof enough that he belongs on a friggin' 2nd unit power play.

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