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Apparently Lidstrom was as good as Lemieux

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Old
09-03-2012, 02:52 PM
  #51
Crafton
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
Well, Mario was the better captain too. Im not saying Lidstrom is a bad captain, but he had the charisma equal to block of wood
man, why you knocking wood?

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Old
09-03-2012, 02:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
There's one person who regularly argues for Lidstrom on the HoH board, but even he didn't vote him first in the Top 60 Defenseman Project. Orr got 17/17 1st place votes.

Doug Harvey is better than Lidstrom and most everyone has him #2 overall. Shore gets **** on because people think he was a cartoon running around taking penalties every shift for some reason, but the dude was the best defensemen of all time until the 50s and the best player in the league at his peak. That said, I think you have to give Lidstrom credit for passing Potvin by now. My top 5 mirrors what the HoH panel came up with:

1. Orr
2. Harvey
3. Bourque
4. Shore
5. Lidstrom

Also since this is being discussed

1. Orr
2. Gretzky
3. Howe
4. Lemieux

I'll keep my head down, but Lidstrom isn't remotely close to the big four imo.
Thats a great post but I just can't agree with the bolded. When players are close like Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin are I try to think of their ability and what they ment to their teams. Aside from passing I think Bourque and Potvin trump Lidstrom at every other aspect of the game. Even then Lidstrom always played in a highly structured system that made passing easy.

IMO Potvin was the best Islander on those cup teams. Taking nothing away from Bossy and Trots but Potvin was that good. I think of him as even with Bourque in terms of defense and offense but Potvin had a Scott Stevens like snarl to his game that just gives him the edge. I was lucky enough to see Orr and then gone back to collect a lot of classic games. IMO Potvin is easily the 2nd best defenseman that Ive ever seen and there is some gap between him and Bourque.

To be honest, given an even playing feild I don't think Lidstrom is even close to some of the other great defenseman and guys like Paul Coffey enter the picture. Maybe not the all around defenseman that some of the others were but he did dominate the game like very few players ever have. I'm not even going to start the... what if Teppo Numminen was on the Wings argument but there it is...

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09-04-2012, 10:11 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Thats a great post but I just can't agree with the bolded. When players are close like Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin are I try to think of their ability and what they ment to their teams. Aside from passing I think Bourque and Potvin trump Lidstrom at every other aspect of the game. Even then Lidstrom always played in a highly structured system that made passing easy.

IMO Potvin was the best Islander on those cup teams. Taking nothing away from Bossy and Trots but Potvin was that good. I think of him as even with Bourque in terms of defense and offense but Potvin had a Scott Stevens like snarl to his game that just gives him the edge. I was lucky enough to see Orr and then gone back to collect a lot of classic games. IMO Potvin is easily the 2nd best defenseman that Ive ever seen and there is some gap between him and Bourque.

To be honest, given an even playing feild I don't think Lidstrom is even close to some of the other great defenseman and guys like Paul Coffey enter the picture. Maybe not the all around defenseman that some of the others were but he did dominate the game like very few players ever have. I'm not even going to start the... what if Teppo Numminen was on the Wings argument but there it is...
Potvin was an amazing defenseman, but you're glossing over some of Lidstrom's strengths in comparison. Lidstrom was uncanny in his ability to always know and execute the correct play every time he had the puck. The guy almost never made anything better than the best play available, much less an outright bad one. Potvin also saw the ice with incredible vision and played with exceptional poise, but not to level of efficiency Lidstrom did, IMO. He was a machine, but when he made a mistake, it didn't drop my jaw the way it did when Lidstrom made one. It just wasn't THAT unusual of an event.

As to Lidstrom being in a structured system making passing "easy", well for one, it only looks easy when you play the system as flawlessly as Lidstrom played it, which in and of itself is an incredible accomplishment compared to almost everyone who has ever played the game, and for two, when the other team is playing a well structured system (like practically every team during Lidstrom's era was, and is) it becomes NOT so easy. Conversely, Potvin played in an era in which teams routinely had all players, including defensemen, freelancing all over the ice, which i agree made things more unpredictable, but also made it much simpler to find players wide open and afforded wide open lanes for lead passes and transition offense.

I'm not saying you're dead wrong in believing Potvin is better than Lidstrom, but i think you're inadvertently selling short what made Lidstrom one of a kind. But i think that's inevitable in these conversations. I think comparing players from different eras is a fool's errand even when they played the same position ... there's too much evolution in the game from one decade to another, and people tend to have a lot of difficulty in seeing the player's play in the context of their circumstances and generations, it's practically impossible to judge in a definitive and unbiased way.

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09-04-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
There's one person who regularly argues for Lidstrom on the HoH board, but even he didn't vote him first in the Top 60 Defenseman Project. Orr got 17/17 1st place votes.

Doug Harvey is better than Lidstrom and most everyone has him #2 overall. Shore gets **** on because people think he was a cartoon running around taking penalties every shift for some reason, but the dude was the best defensemen of all time until the 50s and the best player in the league at his peak. That said, I think you have to give Lidstrom credit for passing Potvin by now. My top 5 mirrors what the HoH panel came up with:

1. Orr
2. Harvey
3. Bourque
4. Shore
5. Lidstrom

Also since this is being discussed

1. Orr
2. Gretzky
3. Howe
4. Lemieux


I'll keep my head down, but Lidstrom isn't remotely close to the big four imo.
I would switch lemieux to .3 I just Dont feel he's as deserving as lemieux.

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09-04-2012, 11:15 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
To be honest, given an even playing feild I don't think Lidstrom is even close to some of the other great defenseman and guys like Paul Coffey enter the picture. Maybe not the all around defenseman that some of the others were but he did dominate the game like very few players ever have. I'm not even going to start the... what if Teppo Numminen was on the Wings argument but there it is...
As a die-hard Jets fan from back in the day, I'll submit that Numminen was as steady as Lidstrom ever was defensively (the guy was clinical), but he wasn't in Lidstrom's league offensively.

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09-04-2012, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Thats a great post but I just can't agree with the bolded. When players are close like Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin are I try to think of their ability and what they ment to their teams. Aside from passing I think Bourque and Potvin trump Lidstrom at every other aspect of the game. Even then Lidstrom always played in a highly structured system that made passing easy.

IMO Potvin was the best Islander on those cup teams. Taking nothing away from Bossy and Trots but Potvin was that good. I think of him as even with Bourque in terms of defense and offense but Potvin had a Scott Stevens like snarl to his game that just gives him the edge. I was lucky enough to see Orr and then gone back to collect a lot of classic games. IMO Potvin is easily the 2nd best defenseman that Ive ever seen and there is some gap between him and Bourque.

To be honest, given an even playing feild I don't think Lidstrom is even close to some of the other great defenseman and guys like Paul Coffey enter the picture. Maybe not the all around defenseman that some of the others were but he did dominate the game like very few players ever have. I'm not even going to start the... what if Teppo Numminen was on the Wings argument but there it is...
For me, Al MacInnis was always up there. He could do it all, hell, he scored over a 100 points in a season as a defensman in the 90's. His slap shot is probably the best ever and his passing and physical play was also very, very good. Plus he was a fantastic leader.

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09-04-2012, 11:40 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
Potvin was an amazing defenseman, but you're glossing over some of Lidstrom's strengths in comparison. Lidstrom was uncanny in his ability to always know and execute the correct play every time he had the puck. The guy almost never made anything better than the best play available, much less an outright bad one. Potvin also saw the ice with incredible vision and played with exceptional poise, but not to level of efficiency Lidstrom did, IMO. He was a machine, but when he made a mistake, it didn't drop my jaw the way it did when Lidstrom made one. It just wasn't THAT unusual of an event.

As to Lidstrom being in a structured system making passing "easy", well for one, it only looks easy when you play the system as flawlessly as Lidstrom played it, which in and of itself is an incredible accomplishment compared to almost everyone who has ever played the game, and for two, when the other team is playing a well structured system (like practically every team during Lidstrom's era was, and is) it becomes NOT so easy. Conversely, Potvin played in an era in which teams routinely had all players, including defensemen, freelancing all over the ice, which i agree made things more unpredictable, but also made it much simpler to find players wide open and afforded wide open lanes for lead passes and transition offense.

I'm not saying you're dead wrong in believing Potvin is better than Lidstrom, but i think you're inadvertently selling short what made Lidstrom one of a kind. But i think that's inevitable in these conversations. I think comparing players from different eras is a fool's errand even when they played the same position ... there's too much evolution in the game from one decade to another, and people tend to have a lot of difficulty in seeing the player's play in the context of their circumstances and generations, it's practically impossible to judge in a definitive and unbiased way.
When I think of Lidström, the Rory Fitzpatrick All-Star Game promotion always comes to mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0ZTcPnMIo

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09-04-2012, 11:49 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
As a die-hard Jets fan from back in the day, I'll submit that Numminen was as steady as Lidstrom ever was defensively (the guy was clinical), but he wasn't in Lidstrom's league offensively.
As much as I like Ducky, Steen, Teemu and Zhamnov, I think a lot of Lidstrom being great offensively has to do that he always had a powerhouse team around him. I'm not saying Lidtsrom isn't an all time great but look at who he's headmanning puck to not to mention on PP's with. Even defensively... the guy was almost always out there with a Selke winner. On the other side of that those Selke winners were always out there with Lidstrom. You can't have it both ways.

I'll take it a step further and say that most of the Red Wings have been grossly over rated for a long time.

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09-04-2012, 12:07 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post

I'll take it a step further and say that most of the Red Wings have been grossly over rated for a long time.
Amen.

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09-04-2012, 01:07 PM
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And now we've come full circle.
Nicely done!

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09-04-2012, 01:46 PM
  #61
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garage league article.

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09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
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**** like this makes me throw up in my mouth.

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09-04-2012, 02:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
As much as I like Ducky, Steen, Teemu and Zhamnov, I think a lot of Lidstrom being great offensively has to do that he always had a powerhouse team around him. I'm not saying Lidtsrom isn't an all time great but look at who he's headmanning puck to not to mention on PP's with. Even defensively... the guy was almost always out there with a Selke winner. On the other side of that those Selke winners were always out there with Lidstrom. You can't have it both ways.

I'll take it a step further and say that most of the Red Wings have been grossly over rated for a long time.
I don't think that accounts for the huge discrepancy in production between Lidstrom and Numminen though. I mean, Teppo cracked 50 points twice...Lidstrom did it 15 times, and cracked 70 points 4 times. And while the Jets were no Wings as far as scoring, they still produced pretty well.

Never mind that Housley had no problem producing better numbers in Winnipeg than Lidstrom ever did in Detroit, and Numminen got outproduced by the likes of Olausson, Mironov, and Quintal in various seasons while with the Jets. Hate to argue against my boy Teppo, but it's pretty clear to me that Lidstrom was in another league in terms of offense.

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09-04-2012, 06:33 PM
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Yeah I've always liked Teppo too.

I think style comes into play with those defensemen. Numminen was the best defensively out of that Jets bunch by a long shot while still putting up good numbers. Just like Lidstrom he would break up plays and start the transition up ice with a great pass that would catch every forward up ice.

Housley on the other hand was up ice on almost every play. He was able to put up a huge ammount of points because of what he did on his own where as Teppo needed the other end of the transition finished for him. TN didn't have that and Lidstrom had that his entire career.

It reminds me of Larry Murphy. Murphy on teams like Minny and TO looked really bad because he was asked to provide offense and rush the puck a lot. He has skill but wasn't exactly Paul Coffey. Murphy was downright lethal, IMO he should have won a Norris or two, with the Pens and Red Wings because he didn't have to lead the offense as much as be a part of it. He could make his headsy defensive play, headman to an elite group of F's and follow up plays.

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09-04-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Thats a great post but I just can't agree with the bolded. When players are close like Bourque, Lidstrom and Potvin are I try to think of their ability and what they ment to their teams. Aside from passing I think Bourque and Potvin trump Lidstrom at every other aspect of the game. Even then Lidstrom always played in a highly structured system that made passing easy.

IMO Potvin was the best Islander on those cup teams. Taking nothing away from Bossy and Trots but Potvin was that good. I think of him as even with Bourque in terms of defense and offense but Potvin had a Scott Stevens like snarl to his game that just gives him the edge. I was lucky enough to see Orr and then gone back to collect a lot of classic games. IMO Potvin is easily the 2nd best defenseman that Ive ever seen and there is some gap between him and Bourque.

To be honest, given an even playing feild I don't think Lidstrom is even close to some of the other great defenseman and guys like Paul Coffey enter the picture. Maybe not the all around defenseman that some of the others were but he did dominate the game like very few players ever have. I'm not even going to start the... what if Teppo Numminen was on the Wings argument but there it is...
Potvin was the only defenseman that I remember that Mario could do nothing against. No matter what Mario did Potvin would shut it down. And this is when Mario was at his best, regularly dancing around dmen like they were pewee players. I knew Potvin was great, but when I saw how he would play against Mario, he advanced a few notches in my book. He was tremendous player. And to say he was better than Trots and Bossy is quite the compliment, because those guys were such studs in their prime. But that is why they had a dynasty.

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09-12-2012, 02:59 AM
  #66
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Lidstrom is one of the best defensemen ever. He's in a top tier, and in the last 10-15 years, he's bar none in my mind, the best defenseman over that period.

Mario Lemieux defies tiers. He sits atop any rankings with Gretzky, and I'd personally contend that Mario was better. I think with him, you had a guy who could do everything Wayne did, except he was so much harder to handle because he was a gigantic man.

I think if you take into consideration that Gretzky put up a vast majority of his points when the game was at the highest levels of scoring in hockey history, and Mario did what he did when the game was primarily clutch and grab...couple that he missed a ton of time with injuries and cancer...not a crazy conclusion that if you put Mario in the same hayday as Wayne, and give Mario a new back and no cancer...he'd probably match Wayne point for point, and have a real good shot at beating him statistically.
Nothing Wayne did touches Mario's 92-93 run. No single season in any sport ever will.

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09-12-2012, 08:37 AM
  #67
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Lidstrom is the D version of Joe Sakic. He was a very good player for a long time, but it's hard to put him in the greatest ever class.

For one, Orr's claim to fame is that he was by far the best D in his time.

If you look at Lidstrom, people always bring up his Norris's. Well, he didn't deserve his last one (he wasn't even good let alone the best). He didn't deserve to win in 06-07 (Niedermayer was significantly better but lost because Pronger was the third nominee), could easily have lost 07-08 to Pronger, and didn't deserve the 05-06 award (but for some reason the writers didn't feel Chara should be a finalist, let alone win). He also should have won in 2000.

Lidstrom was very good, but took advantage of being a good D when there weren't a lot (he and Niedermayer were the only guys to get more than 3 nominations in the 2000s). Even then, it could easily be disputed whether or not he was the best D in any given year.

That's not on the Orr scale. That's not on the Lemieux scale.

D that could be compared to Lidstrom include Potvin, Harvey, Bourque, Robinson, Shore and Chelios.

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09-12-2012, 08:43 AM
  #68
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Nothing Wayne did touches Mario's 92-93 run. No single season in any sport ever will.
Ummm...205 points in 74 GP? Including the 51 game point streak...

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09-12-2012, 09:08 AM
  #69
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Always fun to start the day with a good laugh

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