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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Roster Talk '13 — Canada

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Old
08-29-2012, 05:08 AM
  #76
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you're right, but if you read the article he makes comments re: the other two players who while they have the skill, their age is a factor... I have a particular ax to grind with that dolt when it comes to his age over skill philosophy.

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08-29-2012, 07:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
Huberdeau - Strome - Mackinnon
Monahan - Schiefele - Rattie
Hudon - McNeil - Lessio
Danault - Jenner - Wilson

Murray - Reilly
Murphy - Harrington
Dumba - Reinhart



Subban
(It dosent matter)
If Subban get hurt, it will.

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09-04-2012, 12:47 AM
  #78
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Rielly, Dumba, Ceci, Siemens, Murphy, Koekkoek, Reinhart.

A defense of that would be amazing and that is without a few potential big guns.

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09-04-2012, 08:50 AM
  #79
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Mackinnon will be better then all those 13 forwards by the time next WJC rolls around...
I'll admit that I've never seen him play, but this kid seems really overhyped to me. In the first 4 games of the Ivan Hlinka memorial tournament, a tournament of 16- and 17-year olds, he scored 2 goals. He did get a hat-trick in the final game against Finland, but Finland lost to Russia 6-1, and Russia wasn't that good. Some accounts suggest that some of his teammates looked better than he did. It seems a little too soon to rest the fate of Team Canada on his shoulders.

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09-05-2012, 04:11 AM
  #80
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I'll admit that I've never seen him play, but this kid seems really overhyped to me. In the first 4 games of the Ivan Hlinka memorial tournament, a tournament of 16- and 17-year olds, he scored 2 goals. He did get a hat-trick in the final game against Finland, but Finland lost to Russia 6-1, and Russia wasn't that good. Some accounts suggest that some of his teammates looked better than he did. It seems a little too soon to rest the fate of Team Canada on his shoulders.
I put a lot more stock and meaning in the 5 goals and 8 assists in a 7 game playoff series leading your team from a 0-3 deficit to a 4-3 series Win then a summer tournament in Europe, the 1st tournament of the year.... His first experience with any edition of Team Canada on a national team. All his previous experience has been with either his provincial team or his regional Atlantic team. I've seen him play A LOT. And while there maybe some hype going on (that's just what fans do) and the media to a certain extent, I wouldn't say the hype has been grossly or unfairly exaggerated. He is the Number 1 junior play in the world bar none, no exceptions...the only one that comes close is the American Seth Jones. I don't see any other player out there that will challenge these two players for 1 or 2 in next year's NHL draft.

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09-05-2012, 10:29 AM
  #81
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I put a lot more stock and meaning in the 5 goals and 8 assists in a 7 game playoff series leading your team from a 0-3 deficit to a 4-3 series Win then a summer tournament in Europe, the 1st tournament of the year.... His first experience with any edition of Team Canada on a national team. All his previous experience has been with either his provincial team or his regional Atlantic team. I've seen him play A LOT. And while there maybe some hype going on (that's just what fans do) and the media to a certain extent, I wouldn't say the hype has been grossly or unfairly exaggerated. He is the Number 1 junior play in the world bar none, no exceptions...the only one that comes close is the American Seth Jones. I don't see any other player out there that will challenge these two players for 1 or 2 in next year's NHL draft.
The problem with that line of thinking is that you are not going to face the same caliber of competition in a league championship as you will in an international tournament. Canada used to send the Memorial Cup champion to represent itself in the WJC (except in 1978 in Quebec), and the Memorial Cup champ was never even in the running for Gold. Then, in 1982, they started sending a national team of their best players, and they either won the WJC, or were in the Gold Medal game, more often than not. National teams around the world are so good these days that you can't expect a 16-year old to be a catalyst for victory.

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09-05-2012, 11:08 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I'll admit that I've never seen him play, but this kid seems really overhyped to me. In the first 4 games of the Ivan Hlinka memorial tournament, a tournament of 16- and 17-year olds, he scored 2 goals. He did get a hat-trick in the final game against Finland, but Finland lost to Russia 6-1, and Russia wasn't that good. Some accounts suggest that some of his teammates looked better than he did. It seems a little too soon to rest the fate of Team Canada on his shoulders.
I said that to stir up a banter and see what folks would say btw lol. Overhyped because there's people who compared him to Crosby which is the furthest thing from the truth, he's his own player and there's a reason he's being talked about for first overall in the next draft. He backs his game up and comes up big when games matter as proven in deciding games whether in the Q or at the Ivan Hlinka. He still led the tournament in scoring with 11 points in 5 games and if folks consider that a bad tournament, i'd love to see what a good tournament is from him. The problem is people think whenever a special prospect rolls around it'll translate into outrageous figures in tournaments which is rarely the case historically when your playing at this level. He will not carry the team at the WJC if he makes it, not many players can carry a team at 17, but with all the elements he brings, he'll be a piece of the puzzle. And I don't know whose accounts you go on, from what I saw him and Sam Reinhart are in a class of their own. Watch one little clip from 8:30-8:50, it's obviously just one play but you get a glimpse of what Mackinnon's capable of.


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09-05-2012, 11:12 AM
  #83
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The problem with that line of thinking is that you are not going to face the same caliber of competition in a league championship as you will in an international tournament. Canada used to send the Memorial Cup champion to represent itself in the WJC (except in 1978 in Quebec), and the Memorial Cup champ was never even in the running for Gold. Then, in 1982, they started sending a national team of their best players, and they either won the WJC, or were in the Gold Medal game, more often than not. National teams around the world are so good these days that you can't expect a 16-year old to be a catalyst for victory.
There you go again, sucking and blowing at the same time arguing two sides of the same equation. On the one hand you say, Nathan Mackinnon didn't impress at the Ivan Hlinka (national team international competition) so lets not buy too much into the hype. Then your counter argument to my post is, ya well, league competition is not such a good indicator, national team international competition is the true test, national teams are so good these days... So, 11 pts in 5 games at an international competition is good, yes or no?

You don't agree, but I put a lot more stock into a league playoff series, the one this past spring where he led the way, than I do for the for summer 2012 Ivan Hlinka tournament. Please, the level of intensity at which you got to play those games was infinitely greater than anything he experienced in the Czech Republic. That playoff series prepared him more for the U20 Championship a lot more than the Ivan Hlinka.

And another thing, I don't know where I said that I expect him to be a catalyst for victory. He can be a key contributing player, but it will take a whole lot more than the exploits of a 17 year old to win the U20. He is however the number junior player in the world...what he does from here on out is up to him....

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09-05-2012, 03:55 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by habsrule4eva3089 View Post
I said that to stir up a banter and see what folks would say btw lol. Overhyped because there's people who compared him to Crosby which is the furthest thing from the truth, he's his own player and there's a reason he's being talked about for first overall in the next draft. He backs his game up and comes up big when games matter as proven in deciding games whether in the Q or at the Ivan Hlinka. He still led the tournament in scoring with 11 points in 5 games and if folks consider that a bad tournament, i'd love to see what a good tournament is from him. The problem is people think whenever a special prospect rolls around it'll translate into outrageous figures in tournaments which is rarely the case historically when your playing at this level. He will not carry the team at the WJC if he makes it, not many players can carry a team at 17, but with all the elements he brings, he'll be a piece of the puzzle. And I don't know whose accounts you go on, from what I saw him and Sam Reinhart are in a class of their own. Watch one little clip from 8:30-8:50, it's obviously just one play but you get a glimpse of what Mackinnon's capable of.
Your opinion seems completely reasonable to me. By all accounts, the kid has tremendous talent. I've never heard anyone say anything different, and as I've said, I've never seen him play, so I'm not in a position to judge.

What led me to conclude that he might be overhyped was the fact that posters on this board were suggesting that Hockey Canada's decision to not let him play in the Canada-Russia Super Series in early August jeopardized Canada's ability to successfully compete in the Series. The two biggest obstacles to victory were identified as the absences of Nugent-Hopkins and MacKinnon. Since Nugent-Hopkins is in the NHL and MacKinnon is 16, I had to conclude that MacKinnon is a superstar at the level that Gretzky and Lemieux were at the same age. When I saw that he would play in the Hlinka tournament, I assumed that he would score between 15 and 20 goals against 16- and 17-year olds. When he only scored 5 goals in 5 games, and 3 of those goals were in one game, I concluded that he was likely overhyped. I think that is a reasonable conclusion. And yet I see posters are saying that he has already earned a spot on the Men's National team for the World Championships.

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09-05-2012, 04:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Your opinion seems completely reasonable to me. By all accounts, the kid has tremendous talent. I've never heard anyone say anything different, and as I've said, I've never seen him play, so I'm not in a position to judge.

What led me to conclude that he might be overhyped was the fact that posters on this board were suggesting that Hockey Canada's decision to not let him play in the Canada-Russia Super Series in early August jeopardized Canada's ability to successfully compete in the Series. The two biggest obstacles to victory were identified as the absences of Nugent-Hopkins and MacKinnon. Since Nugent-Hopkins is in the NHL and MacKinnon is 16, I had to conclude that MacKinnon is a superstar at the level that Gretzky and Lemieux were at the same age. When I saw that he would play in the Hlinka tournament, I assumed that he would score between 15 and 20 goals against 16- and 17-year olds. When he only scored 5 goals in 5 games, and 3 of those goals were in one game, I concluded that he was likely overhyped. I think that is a reasonable conclusion. And yet I see posters are saying that he has already earned a spot on the Men's National team for the World Championships.
Gretzky and Lemieux?....... The only reason he was compared to Crosby was their similar development path, but recently people have ackowledged he's no Crosby thats for sure, but still a rare unique prospect regardless.

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09-05-2012, 11:00 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Your opinion seems completely reasonable to me. By all accounts, the kid has tremendous talent. I've never heard anyone say anything different, and as I've said, I've never seen him play, so I'm not in a position to judge.

What led me to conclude that he might be overhyped was the fact that posters on this board were suggesting that Hockey Canada's decision to not let him play in the Canada-Russia Super Series in early August jeopardized Canada's ability to successfully compete in the Series. The two biggest obstacles to victory were identified as the absences of Nugent-Hopkins and MacKinnon. Since Nugent-Hopkins is in the NHL and MacKinnon is 16, I had to conclude that MacKinnon is a superstar at the level that Gretzky and Lemieux were at the same age. When I saw that he would play in the Hlinka tournament, I assumed that he would score between 15 and 20 goals against 16- and 17-year olds. When he only scored 5 goals in 5 games, and 3 of those goals were in one game, I concluded that he was likely overhyped. I think that is a reasonable conclusion. And yet I see posters are saying that he has already earned a spot on the Men's National team for the World Championships.
What?

He's closer to Paul Bissonete than he is to Gretzky or Lemieux. Try on the level of Taylor Hall or Steven Stamkos, and I really don't know how you got that idea from people, they ovehyped him but not that much. At least admit that was wrong later in your post or this would have been really bad.

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09-06-2012, 04:00 AM
  #87
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Your opinion seems completely reasonable to me. By all accounts, the kid has tremendous talent. I've never heard anyone say anything different, and as I've said, I've never seen him play, so I'm not in a position to judge.

What led me to conclude that he might be overhyped was the fact that posters on this board were suggesting that Hockey Canada's decision to not let him play in the Canada-Russia Super Series in early August jeopardized Canada's ability to successfully compete in the Series. The two biggest obstacles to victory were identified as the absences of Nugent-Hopkins and MacKinnon. Since Nugent-Hopkins is in the NHL and MacKinnon is 16, I had to conclude that MacKinnon is a superstar at the level that Gretzky and Lemieux were at the same age. When I saw that he would play in the Hlinka tournament, I assumed that he would score between 15 and 20 goals against 16- and 17-year olds. When he only scored 5 goals in 5 games, and 3 of those goals were in one game, I concluded that he was likely overhyped. I think that is a reasonable conclusion. And yet I see posters are saying that he has already earned a spot on the Men's National team for the World Championships.
Good grief!!! now you are just losing all credibility. You just like to bury yourself deeper and deeper into the &%&&*. Do you purposefully look for pages of subtext in the 3 sentence long half incoherent posts of Hockey fans? Nobody has said that has earned a spot on the men's national team to play at the WHC. What I said was, why not consider him if he's available. It makes a lot more sense to me than having Murray on the team last year. I wasn't promoting Mackinnon so much (although his status as the best junior on the planet is deserving) but I was taking another shot at Hockey Canada. Recent Example, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins rated the number 1 prospect as a 17 year old, gets cut from the junior team, gets cut from a tournament of his peers, but yet a little over a year later, at 18 years old, Hockey Canada sees fit to include him on the World Championship team. Now, I have no problem with RNH playing at the World Hockey Championship after competing his rookie NHL season... what I do have a problem with is the double standard HC seems to practice when it comes to the U20 team.


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09-06-2012, 04:44 AM
  #88
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Good grief!!! now you are just losing all credibility. You just like to bury yourself deeper and deeper into the &%&&*. Do you purposefully look for pages of subtext in the 3 sentence long half incoherent posts of Hockey fans? Nobody has said that has earned a spot on the men's national team to play at the WHC. What I said was, why not consider him if he's available. It makes a lot more sense to me than having Murray on the team last year. I wasn't promoting Mackinnon so much (although his status as the best junior on the planet is deserving) but I was taking another shot at Hockey Canada. Recent Example, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins rated the number 1 prospect as a 17 year old, gets cut from the junior team, gets cut from a tournament of his peers, but yet a little over a year later, at 18 years old Hockey Canada sees fit to include him on the World Championship team. Now, I have no problem with RNH playing at the World Hockey Championship after competing his rookie NHL season... what I do have a problem with is the double standard HC seems to practice when it comes to the U20 team.
all good stuff. I would say hockey canada really does try and put the best team available for the under 20. I have been critical as well in the past with not using 17 year olds with offensive talent.As far as the the world championsip senior, i believe they have decided to ice a competitive team but give the younger players experience building towards the Olympics. Everyone cares about the world juniors in Canada and there is great pressure to win. No one really gives a rats' XXX about the senior championship.Thats why it doesn't make sense when the teams are picked.

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09-06-2012, 04:57 AM
  #89
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all good stuff. I would say hockey canada really does try and put the best team available for the under 20. I have been critical as well in the past with not using 17 year olds with offensive talent.As far as the the world championsip senior, i believe they have decided to ice a competitive team but give the younger players experience building towards the Olympics. Everyone cares about the world juniors in Canada and there is great pressure to win. No one really gives a rats' XXX about the senior championship.Thats why it doesn't make sense when the teams are picked.
I don't agree with you on that entirely. I think they are much too fixated on the philosophy that the U20 is a tournament for 19 year old players and age trumps talent. This is my on-going battle with HC.

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09-06-2012, 09:12 AM
  #90
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What?

He's closer to Paul Bissonete than he is to Gretzky or Lemieux. Try on the level of Taylor Hall or Steven Stamkos, and I really don't know how you got that idea from people, they ovehyped him but not that much. At least admit that was wrong later in your post or this would have been really bad.
Its probably time to end this line of discussion, but in my defense, if you take a look at the threads related to the Canada-Russia series, I think you will see what I am talking about. Posters give the clear impression that MacKinnon is the "next one," and that his absence would hurt Canada's efforts to beat a team made of mainly 19-year olds. Not knowing anything about MacKinnon, I had to conclude that he was considered to be a superstar in the making.

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09-06-2012, 06:53 PM
  #91
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Good grief!!! now you are just losing all credibility. You just like to bury yourself deeper and deeper into the &%&&*. Do you purposefully look for pages of subtext in the 3 sentence long half incoherent posts of Hockey fans? Nobody has said that has earned a spot on the men's national team to play at the WHC. What I said was, why not consider him if he's available. It makes a lot more sense to me than having Murray on the team last year. I wasn't promoting Mackinnon so much (although his status as the best junior on the planet is deserving) but I was taking another shot at Hockey Canada. Recent Example, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins rated the number 1 prospect as a 17 year old, gets cut from the junior team, gets cut from a tournament of his peers, but yet a little over a year later, at 18 years old, Hockey Canada sees fit to include him on the World Championship team. Now, I have no problem with RNH playing at the World Hockey Championship after competing his rookie NHL season... what I do have a problem with is the double standard HC seems to practice when it comes to the U20 team.
I agree that Mackinnon at the WC might not be entirely inconceivable. I mean the argument was Canada has 100 forwards they would consider before him yet. don't we also have pretty good defenceman and we chose what, a draft eligible defenceman in Murray out of the many available? Makes it not sound so crazy, also defence has less spots than forwards as everyone knows.

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09-07-2012, 04:18 AM
  #92
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I agree that Mackinnon at the WC might not be entirely inconceivable. I mean the argument was Canada has 100 forwards they would consider before him yet. don't we also have pretty good defenceman and we chose what, a draft eligible defenceman in Murray out of the many available? Makes it not sound so crazy, also defence has less spots than forwards as everyone knows.
An NHL team president acting GM for Team Canada at a WHC uses Team Canada as an evaluation tool for a potential draft pick. I was shocked Lowe and HC didn't take any heat for that.... it just goes to show how little we value the IIHF's b-level tournament I suppose.

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09-10-2012, 06:58 PM
  #93
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Can guys like RNH play if the lockout is still happening or is the whole he wasn't at the summer camp going to throw a wrench into things.

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09-10-2012, 07:10 PM
  #94
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Can guys like RNH play if the lockout is still happening or is the whole he wasn't at the summer camp going to throw a wrench into things.
The camp in December is the one that matters.

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09-12-2012, 12:22 PM
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Can guys like RNH play if the lockout is still happening or is the whole he wasn't at the summer camp going to throw a wrench into things.
I think it would be great if he did play, but the fact is that he elected not to play in the series in August, when it would have been easy for him to be available. If the NHL is in lockout, and he elects to play for a pro team (e.g., KHL, AHL), his team might not be willing to release him to play. The NHL does not release junior age players who are playing regularly to the WJC, and I would assume other pro leagues might be unwilling to release him as well.

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09-12-2012, 12:41 PM
  #96
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I think it would be great if he did play, but the fact is that he elected not to play in the series in August, when it would have been easy for him to be available. If the NHL is in lockout, and he elects to play for a pro team (e.g., KHL, AHL), his team might not be willing to release him to play. The NHL does not release junior age players who are playing regularly to the WJC, and I would assume other pro leagues might be unwilling to release him as well.
ELC are two way contracts and the Oilers are within their rights to assign RNH to the AHL. They'll allow Yakupov to play in the KHL, however they won't grant the same to RNH. RNH will be assigned to the AHL and he will be available to the world junior team should a lockout last that long... personally I don't think it lasts that long, so no big deal. From a development perspective I'd prefer RNH to be playing in the AHL and not the KHL.
but a recent example is in the lockout of 04-05 Bergeron was still a junior age player during the lockout, he was assigned to their AHL affiliate and the Bruins released him to Team Canada. The AHL team, Providence Bruins had no say in the matter.

And he wasn't selected in August because the feeling was he won't be released if there is an NHL season.. so why bother including him, there are other players that need to evaluated. In the event of a lockout, he'll be there.

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09-12-2012, 01:54 PM
  #97
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ELC are two way contracts and the Oilers are within their rights to assign RNH to the AHL. They'll allow Yakupov to play in the KHL, however they won't grant the same to RNH. RNH will be assigned to the AHL and he will be available to the world junior team should a lockout last that long... personally I don't think it lasts that long, so no big deal. From a development perspective I'd prefer RNH to be playing in the AHL and not the KHL.
but a recent example is in the lockout of 04-05 Bergeron was still a junior age player during the lockout, he was assigned to their AHL affiliate and the Bruins released him to Team Canada. The AHL team, Providence Bruins had no say in the matter.

And he wasn't selected in August because the feeling was he won't be released if there is an NHL season.. so why bother including him, there are other players that need to evaluated. In the event of a lockout, he'll be there.
If he wasn't invited because of the likelihood that he wouldn't be available in December, then that makes sense. In the past, AHL teams have refused to release Russian players for the WJC. Maybe they would take a different attitude toward releasing canadians.

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09-12-2012, 02:19 PM
  #98
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If he wasn't invited because of the likelihood that he wouldn't be available in December, then that makes sense. In the past, AHL teams have refused to release Russian players for the WJC. Maybe they would take a different attitude toward releasing canadians.
Can you name which Russian players in the AHL were not released? There are generally no junior age Canadians playing in the AHL so I don't know how significant the numbers are for junior age Russians in the AHL are. In most circumstances junior age players (any nationality) if not on the NHL roster must be returned to their junior team. So, give me specifics, names, years...

Russians don't generally view the AHL as a developmental league anyway, most Russian players playing junior in Canada, if the option comes up, AHL or return to Russia? They almost always return to Russia. Russian players tend to see the AHL as a league where talent goes to die.

The only player I can think of is LA D-man Voynov. He played in the 09 WJHC, but not in 2010. But they also didn't release Drew Doughty 2 years in a row. Granted Drew was with LA and not the AHL affiliate. Now, believe me, I understand how frustrating it is when teams do not release players to their national teams...


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09-12-2012, 04:46 PM
  #99
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If he wasn't invited because of the likelihood that he wouldn't be available in December, then that makes sense. In the past, AHL teams have refused to release Russian players for the WJC. Maybe they would take a different attitude toward releasing canadians.
During the last lockout Brent Burns was not released for the WJCs. Maybe they take the same attitude which is that a team does what they think is best for their own team, not some country.

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09-12-2012, 08:42 PM
  #100
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Posts: 4,943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Can you name which Russian players in the AHL were not released?
Grachev, Avtsin and Voynov I believe, maybe Anisimov too.

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