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Old
09-12-2012, 05:02 PM
  #351
uiCk
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405101

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The NHL's counter-proposal today was six years in length and offered to start players' share of hockey-related revenue at 49 percent and end it at 47 percent by the end of the term.
getting there.

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Old
09-12-2012, 05:25 PM
  #352
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~48% for the players sounds right. The question is % of what? What is the new HRR? Still a long way to go. Not sure if xmas is even possible.

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09-12-2012, 05:27 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by DekeLikeYouMeanIt View Post
~48% for the players sounds right. The question is % of what? What is the new HRR? Still a long way to go. Not sure if xmas is even possible.
The HRR won't change

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The league's new proposal also does not change the definition of hockey-related revenue as outlined in the previous CBA.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405101

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09-12-2012, 05:35 PM
  #354
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The players are really pissing me off. I hate the owners as much as anyone, but it seems like the players are holding a grudge from the last lockout where the owners basically got everything they wanted. Now the players are refusing to change their original proposal, except to add an extra year.

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09-12-2012, 05:42 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
The players are really pissing me off. I hate the owners as much as anyone, but it seems like the players are holding a grudge from the last lockout where the owners basically got everything they wanted. Now the players are refusing to change their original proposal, except to add an extra year.
Fehr and the militant wing of players union have deluded themselves and entire union into thinking that owners will fracture and that major market owners will force a more favorable CBA for players

That wont happen ,, With every passing month of no hockey the NHL offer will get worse and worse

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Old
09-12-2012, 05:48 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
The players are really pissing me off. I hate the owners as much as anyone, but it seems like the players are holding a grudge from the last lockout where the owners basically got everything they wanted. Now the players are refusing to change their original proposal, except to add an extra year.
Players are not refusing anything. NHL is trying to reduce their benifits, so it's normal they do not want to. they know they will have to, but will wait till last possible second to come to an agreement, pushing the NHL to go as low as they can. full confidence they will reach an agreement prior to 1st game of the season and even minute left to deadline of 15th september IMO.
Everyones playing hardball, but that's just for show, each side just looking to see how much they can get from either side, but it seems both sides want to get it done. (players want to get paid, NHL has been experiencing major growth since last CBA). All the media speculation is being influenced by both parties. (TSN already running articles for "has the situation improve?" while couple days ago,media was talking about 1/2 season, full season lock out.

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09-12-2012, 06:03 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Players are not refusing anything. NHL is trying to reduce their benifits, so it's normal they do not want to. they know they will have to, but will wait till last possible second to come to an agreement, pushing the NHL to go as low as they can. full confidence they will reach an agreement prior to 1st game of the season and even minute left to deadline of 15th september IMO.
Everyones playing hardball, but that's just for show, each side just looking to see how much they can get from either side, but it seems both sides want to get it done. (players want to get paid, NHL has been experiencing major growth since last CBA). All the media speculation is being influenced by both parties. (TSN already running articles for "has the situation improve?" while couple days ago,media was talking about 1/2 season, full season lock out.
The NHL made a ridiculous first proposal, then followed up with some improvements. The players came up with a ridiculous first proposal, then haven't done a thing to actually negotiate. They just keep complaining about the NHLs proposals, and throwing their same one back at them.

I'll believe it when I see it, but with the way things are going, it doesn't seem like we'll be getting a full season. On TSN they just mentioned how the two sides are still nowhere close.

I blame both parties by the way. The owners are greedy, and the players are still angry they bent over so much in 2005, which is why they hired Fehr in the first place.

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09-12-2012, 06:03 PM
  #358
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I was on the fence until now but my support is leaning towards the owners now. The stubborness of the NHLPA to continually refuse to budge in negotiations is getting ridiculous. Not only do they not want to lose salary...they want a raise. They argue that the rich teams need to completely support the poor ones...well guess what...in the real world if a business loses money they fold and all the employees lose their jobs.

I find it disgusting to hear Dreger quote a "high profile player" saying they will walk away from the game if they have to take a paycut...that is just plain ungrateful and greedy. The league will do fine without him whoever he is.

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:10 PM
  #359
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The refusal of the Players is natural, since they will end up losing at the end of the day, we there they like it or not. So in that sense, it makes no sense at all for the Players to accept any offer until the time is done. It's the NHL trying to take some of the Players share of the Pie. Until there is a real threat (lock out past the 15th = loss of wages) there is no reason for them to accept to lower their share. As of now.


Basically, in usual negotiations, both parties have something to gain. In this case, the players will no gain, but lose. So the negotiation is about how much they will lose and not about how much each side gains. So until there is a real threat (Direct loss of wages, as soon as the 15th?), NHLPA will not budge, and if they did, they would be the worst negotiators i've ever witnessed.

The NHL giving a proposal now is a sign that owners do not want a lock out. And i'm sure the NHLPA is aware of that.

Also, i blame neither party until the 1st game of the season is cancelled. Then something went wrong, and one party or both have made no serious effort to resolve the conflict, which will result in both parties losing. And at that point, the NHL will probably have the upper hand IMO.

Also, the reactions of people is exactly what NHLPA is trying to instil unto the NHL, a feeling that they wont budge no matter what, making the NHL lower their proposals. Which is their goal. At the end, the Players will have to make a proposal, and NHL knows that, so ultimately the end result is really known by both sides, but its a matter of smallish details more then anything, like a gradual decrease and other random extras, to make the players swallow the pill of losing a share in the pie.

I might be optimistic, but everything is going down as i envisioned, so i keep hope that the lock out threat is all for show.


Last edited by uiCk: 09-12-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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09-12-2012, 06:46 PM
  #360
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I don't get it...... If I was the head of NHLPA I would tell the players give the owners whatever they want. Why? Because they are retards and are going to sign them for incredibly stupid amounts of money anyway you look at it.

I mean how much in trouble are our small market teams when Minnesota can sign Suter and Parise for what they did?

I know there are a lot of other things to the pie, but why nickel and dime the owners for a percentage of revenue when it will get coughed up anyway in the long run.

You want the salary cap to move upwards by leaps and bounds, well give the owners what they want, and they will put it back in your pocket as quick as lightning.

This stuff is getting so boring and predictable.

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:54 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAKS AVENUE View Post
I don't get it...... If I was the head of NHLPA I would tell the players give the owners whatever they want. Why? Because they are retards and are going to sign them for incredibly stupid amounts of money anyway you look at it.

I mean how much in trouble are our small market teams when Minnesota can sign Suter and Parise for what they did?

I know there are a lot of other things to the pie, but why nickel and dime the owners for a percentage of revenue when it will get coughed up anyway in the long run.

You want the salary cap to move upwards by leaps and bounds, well give the owners what they want, and they will put it back in your pocket as quick as lightning.

This stuff is getting so boring and predictable.
For the 5% of players that are in the 5+ million dollar bracket, the share doesn't matter much. For the majority of players, im sure the shared revenue does matter, because they will never see those crazy suter contracts you speak of.
Once again, if the players give whatever, then there wouldn't be any negotiations (or just terrible negotiation tactics)

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:57 PM
  #362
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For quite a while, I keep saying....that sounds like January to me.....Better prepare for some plan B boys....

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Old
09-12-2012, 06:59 PM
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNasty View Post
I was on the fence until now but my support is leaning towards the owners now. The stubborness of the NHLPA to continually refuse to budge in negotiations is getting ridiculous. Not only do they not want to lose salary...they want a raise. They argue that the rich teams need to completely support the poor ones...well guess what...in the real world if a business loses money they fold and all the employees lose their jobs.

I find it disgusting to hear Dreger quote a "high profile player" saying they will walk away from the game if they have to take a paycut...that is just plain ungrateful and greedy. The league will do fine without him whoever he is.
Where does it end though? The players gave up A LOT last time, and rightfully so. Now they are asked to give more up after the league has been generating more revenue than ever? How does that make sense? They probably also realize that they will be asked to give up even more in the next CBA negotiations as well.

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Old
09-12-2012, 07:01 PM
  #364
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willing to make avatar bet with anyone (no lurkers lol, someone who posts actively enough to parade the avatar, in case i win) that there will be a game 1!

obviously, in accordance to HF rules

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Old
09-12-2012, 07:07 PM
  #365
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Owners and Players both extremely greedy.

Both look like jokes. The owners look like jokes because the last CBA that they lost a season for which they trumped their horns about is now the one they want destroyed.

Players are just going to lose anyhow as at some point they will cave and their is a strong possibly the NHL will lose revenue if they go for another prolonged lockout. TV contracts, fan merchandise etc arent going to get better with another season lost.

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09-12-2012, 07:16 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
willing to make avatar bet with anyone (no lurkers lol, someone who posts actively enough to parade the avatar, in case i win) that there will be a game 1!

obviously, in accordance to HF rules
Theres likely to be a game #1, just in January rather than October.

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09-12-2012, 07:36 PM
  #367
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Last time I was completely for the owners. Too many teams in the league were losing money and there were just 5-6 teams in the league who could make a play for a UFA and keep their UFAs because it was only these 5-6 teams who had money to spend. The NHLPA was living in some la-la land, so I was happy the owners cleaned their clock. Its different for me now.

The NHL has some grand mega plan on eventually getting a national audience in the US instead of being a sport of regional interest. You know, Hockey Night in America on Friday night or something. And making many millions per team from this grand TV deal. To be a National sport you really need to have teams everywhere. Me thinks this is why the NHL has desperately tried to keep teams alive everwhere even where its apparent the issue isnt short term, its long term because enough people just arent interested to pay enough money to make the teams viable, so the teams bleed money. It seems to me the NHL wants the NHLPA to pay to keep these teams afloat when if the owners are that hell bent on keeping these teams, then they are the ones who should be keeping them afloat with more revenue sharing. Remember, while Unions dont like losing members their biggest thing is to keep the wage or pay, as high as possible, even if it means losing some jobs. Thats the way it is in a factory and thats the way the NHLPA thinks, so I think they could live with a couple teams folding and losing the jobs if it means keeping the pay up.


Anyway, the NHL got their way last time and now it went for even more to keep its agenda alive, when fairly they should have gone for some tweaking and more milder concessions, and I think they way overshot and started the discussions very badly. The NHL has gotten more realistic since then, but unfortunately the NHLPA seems stuck.

Of course my greatest sympathies are with us the fans who have to put up with this nonsense yet again.


Last edited by yianik: 09-12-2012 at 07:38 PM. Reason: repeated a para
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Old
09-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #368
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Theres likely to be a game #1, just in January rather than October.
That's gotta sound good to Leaf fans. Eliminates the ~ half of the season during which they implode.

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09-12-2012, 09:34 PM
  #369
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I dunno why, but i have a strange feeling that there's not gonna be a lockout...

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09-12-2012, 09:46 PM
  #370
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I hope the players weight in all the consequences of their future decision(s). The league could be reduced to say 28 teams because of some owners leaving and the league not wanting to support the failling franchises (Phoenix for instance). That would be a grand total of 100 NHL contracts (max) gone out of the window with an estimated amount of 100 million lost for the players. (Estimate: player salary average is around 2 million, calculating 2 x 25 contracts honored at NHL level)

On one extreme end things could look a hole lot worst. The owners are anything but united here. The lengthy contracts for tons of cash are proof enough. If some of them just keep asking for financial aid under an hypothetical new CBA, I bet some will not mind see them leave.

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09-12-2012, 09:51 PM
  #371
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Bettman is trying to get the NHLPA to take sole ownership of making the league as a whole financially sound when he is responsible for the disparity b/w "rich and poor" teams with his philosophy of expanding into historically non-hockey markets.

I agree that the NHLPA should reduce their % of HRR ( 52% players ) but it seems unfair for him to make the players responsible for his plan of putting teams in Phoenix, Columbus etc who are money losing franchises. I hope the end game is something where there is increased revenue sharing and lower PA % but that the NHL remains responsible for placing franchises in markets which can support an NHL team ( Quebec City, Hamilton, maybe Seattle ). Its not the PA's fault if he chose to expand the league in bad markets and he shouldn't expect the players to pay for his mistakes.

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09-12-2012, 11:36 PM
  #372
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I dunno why, but i have a strange feeling that there's not gonna be a lockout...
Gonna know soon for sure. But for how long? That's anyone's guess.

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:00 AM
  #373
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All in all... We are the big losers in this. And we're watching carefully to see if theres hockey or not...

It's us that pay like dumbasses and wait for those freaking spoiled brat.

Players are played 500k and up to play freaking hockey!!!!!!!! I'm paid 30k a year to do somehting I freaking hate!!! Shouldn't it be the other way around ?

God damnit i'd be ready to pay to play in the NHL.

They're spoiled. They don't know what they have.

This pisses me off.

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09-13-2012, 12:23 AM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrNasty View Post
I was on the fence until now but my support is leaning towards the owners now. The stubborness of the NHLPA to continually refuse to budge in negotiations is getting ridiculous. Not only do they not want to lose salary...they want a raise. They argue that the rich teams need to completely support the poor ones...well guess what...in the real world if a business loses money they fold and all the employees lose their jobs.

I find it disgusting to hear Dreger quote a "high profile player" saying they will walk away from the game if they have to take a paycut...that is just plain ungrateful and greedy. The league will do fine without him whoever he is.
I was a little surprised to hear that also but that's just posturing by that player I figure.. I doubt if this player and others would be fine walking away from millions rather that take a small pay cut..

Anyway you'd think these players would have learned from the last lockout.. They lost a full year and millions of dollars and ended up signing a deal similar to what was offered before the season was canned. They didn't really gain much and lost millions because of it.

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Old
09-13-2012, 08:01 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
All in all... We are the big losers in this. And we're watching carefully to see if theres hockey or not...

It's us that pay like dumbasses and wait for those freaking spoiled brat.

Players are played 500k and up to play freaking hockey!!!!!!!! I'm paid 30k a year to do somehting I freaking hate!!! Shouldn't it be the other way around ?

God damnit i'd be ready to pay to play in the NHL.

They're spoiled. They don't know what they have.

This pisses me off.
It's hard but I haven't purchased anything hockey related all summer and i'm waiting for the official lockout by Bettman to cancel my center ice package. I know it won't change anything for them but if they go on another lockout, i'm done with spending money on the NHL for a really really long time. Watching the NFL and might take a trip down next year to catch a game or 2.

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