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Gillis: Potential Return For Luongo May Not Improve Canucks **Mod Warning #86**

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Old
09-12-2012, 08:28 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Nuck fans aren't going to like the return, but most of us have been saying this. Clemmer is likely the guy to go in a trade. He doesn't have a NTC and is signed for 2 years where Theo is only one and Markstrom will be closer to being ready.
Is Tallon a sign'n'trade kind of guy?

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09-12-2012, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ponder View Post
IF Luongo was willing to waive his NTC to come to Toronto (a big "if"), and IF the Leafs wanted him (a smaller "if"), then I think a deal along the lines of Liles + MacArthur for Luongo would make sense. I think the Nucks have been missing a really smooth puck mover since Ehrhoff left, they went from being a super dangerous transition team to one that sometimes struggled to score, and I think Liles would help a lot there. MacArthur is a solid winger who can play on any of their top 3 lines, and simply add scoring depth. I honestly doubt the Nucks would get an offer much better than that.
Man seriously I don't understand why people want to move Liles so bad. Did people forget what he did for this team in the time before his concussion. He came back too early give him the time to recover and he will impress.

Also I understand MacArthur as he is a asset we have plenty of but I would much reather MacA with something we really do not want for Lou. Komi or Lombardi has to go the other way or it is truly a no go.

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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Great another thread where Canucks fans will be told what is & what isn't by everyone else




... for Toronto.




(wasn't talking specifically or even about you ponder fyi)
Yeah and it is soo nice having you tell TOR and FLA fans we need to include our top prospects to get this guy. Face it Lou value is just not there. I mean Gillis seems to be coming around when will you?

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Originally Posted by KingJet View Post
Don't expect a Luongo trade by the 16th, and it will probably be Markstrom to Toronto.

Markstrom for MacArthur, 3rd and Percy

Luongo for Matthias, MacArthur and 1st 2013
Honestly and this is not a knock on Markstrom in any way as I really like the guy but I would much rather Toronto continue with Reimer and Scrivens. On top of that we have Owyua who in his stint with the Marlies played extremely well. Best bet for Markstrom is look towards Chicago.

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09-12-2012, 08:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because Philadelphia isn't adding a goaltender, they are upgrading from an average one to an elite one. Bryzgalov is decent goaltender, and especially under Carlyle's system could do well.
Philly would pay a team to take Bryz, never mind getting (essentially) a top prospect and a 2nd for him. The value definitely isnt there for Toronto. They wont be taking a gamble like that. It can work out in theory, but it can also be Gomez 2.0.

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09-12-2012, 08:33 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because Philadelphia isn't adding a goaltender, they are upgrading from an average one to an elite one. Bryzgalov is decent goaltender, and especially under Carlyle's system could do well.
Man Carlye and Alaire would not play Bryz when they had him in Anaheim why would they want to do so now? Also in the end of the day I would take Lou over Bryz and you are offering more then I want to pay for Lou for a goalie who most would consider to has FAR less value.

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09-12-2012, 08:35 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Philly would pay a team to take Bryz, never mind getting (essentially) a top prospect and a 2nd for him. The value definitely isnt there for Toronto. They wont be taking a gamble like that. It can work out in theory, but it can also be Gomez 2.0.
Bryzgalov definitely does not have negative value. He is a fairly good starting goaltender, if overpaid. Similar to Dion Phaneuf, who is a decent #1 defenseman, but overpaid. A good prospect(the term top is misleading, he isn't even the best prospect in Toronto) and a 2nd is hardly breaking the bank.

EDIT: What if I took out the 2nd?

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09-12-2012, 08:35 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Is Tallon a sign'n'trade kind of guy?
We'll find out, won't we? Theo would have to agree to waive.

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09-12-2012, 08:35 PM
  #57
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Again, with a lockout looming, MacArthur holds absolutely no value until a CBA is signed.
Well, that depends on what you're benchmarking his value to. In terms of draft picks / prospects, likely minimal with the uncertainty of a new CBA and decreasing likelyhood of a rollback.

However, in a hockey trade, he's probably worth the 2nd pairing shutdown defenceman we need, or at least close to it, considering he is a proven 2nd line winger who's contract is certainly not an issue when compared league-wide.

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09-12-2012, 08:42 PM
  #58
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Gillis is talking about the return(s) not being NHL-ready (prospects/picks). The team would be "different" and "not necessarily better".

We replace Luongo, we should still be a damn good team, except we improve our future (if we don't get a proven player, it WILL be a top pick and/or prospect at the very least, as we would potentialy face losing a star player for nothing)

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09-12-2012, 08:43 PM
  #59
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Not to the bit least surprising.

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09-12-2012, 08:43 PM
  #60
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I thought Gillis had all the time and leverage in the world?

The Doan factor is a pretty good twist to this story. The 14th could be the day the chips fall for both Doan and Vancouver.

Just like I've stated before, Gillis' best time to trade Luongo was during the off-season. His return would have been the highest then but terrible asset management and lack of foresight has put Gillis into an unfavorable situation. Not so stellar marks for Gillis' first and only true test of mettle.

Now with so many factors playing against Gillis, it appears he is finally releasing some statements that confirm what many said from the get go - there is no market for a 34 year old questionable goaltender with an 11 year contract. He's just greasing up the pipeline for what is going to go down in the next few days. The factors working against him just keep piling up on him the longer he waits. It's comical.

1) Threat of a salary cap reduction with no rollback
2) Commitment from Canucks to Doan on his "fallback contract" and the lack of space to accommodate him
3) Zero interest for Luongo and his contract
4) The sudden need to clear cap space.

Wow. How Gillis managed to turn such a sweetheart situation that any other team could have formulated an action plan over Sunday brunch into a perfect storm nightmare of looming CBA deadlines, free agent contracts, a 2 headed goaltending monster, zero cap space and a partridge in a pear tree is beyond me.

He could still get out of this scott-free if he just traded Luongo already. At least then he might be able to keep his promise to Doan if the Phoenix option doesn't work out for him. But I fully expect Gillis to hold onto Luongo until the lockout ends and the dust settles with a severely reduced cap and a buyers market the likes the NHL has never seen.

The fact that he is beginning to consider the option of a 3-way trade just confirms that he is desperate to get any value for Luongo whatsoever. That would be the only way he could get around the NTC. Even then, all this means is Gillis is going to have to add to Luongo to make up for his negative value.

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09-12-2012, 08:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Leaf Rocket View Post
Not to the bit least surprising.
Just check out some of the older Luongo threads.

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Old
09-12-2012, 08:48 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
Justice. Captain? Contract that takes you to 42? Nothing on Lou, poor asset management just shouldn't be rewarded.
Gomez turned into McDonagh...

Also Lou is not captain anymore. Kind of reaching on that one as well.

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09-12-2012, 08:49 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I thought Gillis had all the time and leverage in the world?

The Doan factor is a pretty good twist to this story. The 14th could be the day the chips fall for both Doan and Vancouver.

Just like I've stated before, Gillis' best time to trade Luongo was during the off-season. His return would have been the highest then but terrible asset management and lack of foresight has put Gillis into an unfavorable situation. Not so stellar marks for Gillis' first and only true test of mettle.

Now with so many factors playing against Gillis, it appears he is finally releasing some statements that confirm what many said from the get go - there is no market for a 34 year old questionable goaltender with an 11 year contract. He's just greasing up the pipeline for what is going to go down in the next few days. The factors working against him just keep piling up on him the longer he waits. It's comical.

1) Threat of a salary cap reduction with no rollback
2) Commitment from Canucks to Doan on his "fallback contract" and the lack of space to accommodate him
3) Zero interest for Luongo and his contract
4) The sudden need to clear cap space.

Wow. How Gillis managed to turn such a sweetheart situation that any other team could have formulated an action plan over Sunday brunch into a perfect storm nightmare of looming CBA deadlines, free agent contracts, a 2 headed goaltending monster, zero cap space and a partridge in a pear tree is beyond me.

He could still get out of this scott-free if he just traded Luongo already. At least then he might be able to keep his promise to Doan if the Phoenix option doesn't work out for him. But I fully expect Gillis to hold onto Luongo until the lockout ends and the dust settles with a severely reduced cap and a buyers market the likes the NHL has never seen.

The fact that he is beginning to consider the option of a 3-way trade just confirms that he is desperate to get any value for Luongo whatsoever. That would be the only way he could get around the NTC. Even then, all this means is Gillis is going to have to add to Luongo to make up for his negative value.
Yet he doesn't have to trade Luongo at all.

Could continue rolling the best goalie tandem in the NHL, nothing wrong with that.

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09-12-2012, 08:51 PM
  #64
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Gillis preparing for what everyone already knew, the inevitable. No kidding.

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09-12-2012, 08:51 PM
  #65
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Man seriously I don't understand why people want to move Liles so bad. Did people forget what he did for this team in the time before his concussion. He came back too early give him the time to recover and he will impress
I don't "want to move Liles so bad," I'm happy to have him on the team. However, IF we were to trade for Luongo (and I don't think we will, I don't see Luongo waiving his NTC to come to another pressure cooker in Toronto), then I think Liles makes sense as one of the main assets going the other way. I have to think that the Nucks will be more interested in "win now" players than pieces for the future, their window to win a cup is right now (the Sedins, Bieksa and Burrows are all 31, Hamhuis and Higgins are 29, Kesler is 28, etc.). I live in Vancouver, I see a lot of Nucks games, and I think they really need a puck mover after the loss of Ehrhoff. On the flip side, the Leafs have already have 2 good puck movers in Phaneuf and Gardiner, 2 other offensively competent dmen in Gunnarsson and Franson, and tonnes of talented d-prospects like Rielly, Percy, Blacker, Finn, etc. I see Liles as a useful member of the team, but ultimately a player who I wouldn't mind trading in the right deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Great another thread where Canucks fans will be told what is & what isn't by everyone else




... for Toronto.




(wasn't talking specifically or even about you ponder fyi)
I think Liles makes the Nucks a fair bit better, and I think MacArthur would be a useful winger on one of the top 3 lines. If the Nucks are looking to make a "win now" deal, and if Luongo would waive his NTC for the Leafs, then I do think this deal makes sense for both sides. The Nucks are in a tight spot, they've been openly shopping Luongo for ages, but nobody seems to be offering much. Furthermore, Luongo has a NTC, which could really restrict the Nucks in terms of trade options. Luongo is very good, but he's also 33 years old, and he has a whopping 10 YEARS left on his deal at a very significant $5.33 mil cap hit. If his play drops off, you're instantly looking at a serious albatross contract, acquiring him would definitely be a high risk move. I the Nucks can get two players on shorter contracts who can improve the team immediately, I see that as a good move for them. I don't really buy this "if we can't get good value, we won't trade him" stuff, keeping Luongo would IMO be a bad move in terms of off-ice issues. It's well known that Luongo wants to be traded, it's well know that the Nucks want to trade him, MANY Nucks fans were hating on him even before the trade talk came up, it would just be a nasty situation to keep him around in terms of both the fans and the locker room.



Again, I don't see Luongo to the Leafs happening, because I don't think he'd waive his NTC to come to Toronto. He's trying to force his way to Florida (to be with his family), and I won't be surprised if he gets his way. If it can't be Florida, well, he probably won't want to go to another high pressure environment after be scrutinized so heavily in Vancouver, the man looks to be on the edge of a breakdown almost constantly. However, *IF* he would waive his NTC to go to the Leafs, then I think the trade I proposed would be a reasonable one.

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Old
09-12-2012, 08:53 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder View Post
I think Liles makes the Nucks a fair bit better, and I think MacArthur would be a useful winger on one of the top 3 lines. If the Nucks are looking to make a "win now" deal, and if Luongo would waive his NTC for the Leafs, then I do think this deal makes sense for both sides. The Nucks are in a tight spot, they've been openly shopping Luongo for ages, but nobody seems to be offering much. Furthermore, Luongo has a NTC, which could really restrict the Nucks in terms of trade options. Luongo is very good, but he's also 33 years old, and he has a whopping 10 YEARS left on his deal at a very significant $5.33 mil cap hit. If his play drops off, you're instantly looking at a serious albatross contract, acquiring him would definitely be a high risk move. I the Nucks can get two players on shorter contracts who can improve the team immediately, I see that as a good move for them. I don't really buy this "if we can't get good value, we won't trade him" stuff, keeping Luongo would IMO be a bad move in terms of off-ice issues. It's well known that Luongo wants to be traded, it's well know that the Nucks want to trade him, MANY Nucks fans were hating on him even before the trade talk came up, it would just be a nasty situation to keep him around in terms of both the fans and the locker room.



Again, I don't see Luongo to the Leafs happening, because I don't think he'd waive his NTC to come to Toronto. He's trying to force his way to Florida (to be with his family), and I won't be surprised if he gets his way. If it can't be Florida, well, he probably won't want to go to another high pressure environment after be scrutinized so heavily in Vancouver, the man looks to be on the edge of a breakdown almost constantly. However, *IF* he would waive his NTC to go to the Leafs, then I think the trade I proposed would be a reasonable one.
We have a backlog of top-4 defensemen and 2-3 line tweeners, and those are the only expendable roster players from Toronto. Picks/Prospects would be the way to go.

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09-12-2012, 08:54 PM
  #67
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Can we lock this thread? No good is gonna come out of it. Only Franson and a bunch of 4th and 5th round picks.

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09-12-2012, 09:00 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Well, that depends on what you're benchmarking his value to. In terms of draft picks / prospects, likely minimal with the uncertainty of a new CBA and decreasing likelyhood of a rollback.

However, in a hockey trade, he's probably worth the 2nd pairing shutdown defenceman we need, or at least close to it, considering he is a proven 2nd line winger who's contract is certainly not an issue when compared league-wide.
No absolutely 0 Hes a pending UFA, his contract is up after this season, if he doesnt play this season hell never play for the team that acquires him (unless re-signed of course).

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09-12-2012, 09:00 PM
  #69
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Yet he doesn't have to trade Luongo at all.

Could continue rolling the best goalie tandem in the NHL, nothing wrong with that.
If that weren't a problem, then why did this whole situation come up in the first place? What happens in three years when Schneider is a UFA and Vancouver still has Luongo because no one will touch that contract after the salary rollbacks and Schneider walks because he wants more playing time? I'd say there's a problem.

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09-12-2012, 09:02 PM
  #70
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If that weren't a problem, then why did this whole situation come up in the first place? What happens in three years when Schneider is a UFA and Vancouver still has Luongo because no one will touch that contract after the salary rollbacks and Schneider walks because he wants more playing time? I'd say there's a problem.
A lot can happen in 3 years. May as well hold on to him until the market gets hot.

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09-12-2012, 09:03 PM
  #71
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If that weren't a problem, then why did this whole situation come up in the first place? What happens in three years when Schneider is a UFA and Vancouver still has Luongo because no one will touch that contract after the salary rollbacks and Schneider walks because he wants more playing time? I'd say there's a problem.
It sounds like what you're saying is that there will be a problem in the future, not that there's one right now.

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09-12-2012, 09:04 PM
  #72
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I don't "want to move Liles so bad," I'm happy to have him on the team. However, IF we were to trade for Luongo (and I don't think we will, I don't see Luongo waiving his NTC to come to another pressure cooker in Toronto), then I think Liles makes sense as one of the main assets going the other way. I have to think that the Nucks will be more interested in "win now" players than pieces for the future, their window to win a cup is right now (the Sedins, Bieksa and Burrows are all 31, Hamhuis and Higgins are 29, Kesler is 28, etc.). I live in Vancouver, I see a lot of Nucks games, and I think they really need a puck mover after the loss of Ehrhoff. On the flip side, the Leafs have already have 2 good puck movers in Phaneuf and Gardiner, 2 other offensively competent dmen in Gunnarsson and Franson, and tonnes of talented d-prospects like Rielly, Percy, Blacker, Finn, etc. I see Liles as a useful member of the team, but ultimately a player who I wouldn't mind trading in the right deal.

I think Liles makes the Nucks a fair bit better, and I think MacArthur would be a useful winger on one of the top 3 lines. If the Nucks are looking to make a "win now" deal, and if Luongo would waive his NTC for the Leafs, then I do think this deal makes sense for both sides. The Nucks are in a tight spot, they've been openly shopping Luongo for ages, but nobody seems to be offering much. Furthermore, Luongo has a NTC, which could really restrict the Nucks in terms of trade options. Luongo is very good, but he's also 33 years old, and he has a whopping 10 YEARS left on his deal at a very significant $5.33 mil cap hit. If his play drops off, you're instantly looking at a serious albatross contract, acquiring him would definitely be a high risk move. I the Nucks can get two players on shorter contracts who can improve the team immediately, I see that as a good move for them. I don't really buy this "if we can't get good value, we won't trade him" stuff, keeping Luongo would IMO be a bad move in terms of off-ice issues. It's well known that Luongo wants to be traded, it's well know that the Nucks want to trade him, MANY Nucks fans were hating on him even before the trade talk came up, it would just be a nasty situation to keep him around in terms of both the fans and the locker room.



Again, I don't see Luongo to the Leafs happening, because I don't think he'd waive his NTC to come to Toronto. He's trying to force his way to Florida (to be with his family), and I won't be surprised if he gets his way. If it can't be Florida, well, he probably won't want to go to another high pressure environment after be scrutinized so heavily in Vancouver, the man looks to be on the edge of a breakdown almost constantly. However, *IF* he would waive his NTC to go to the Leafs, then I think the trade I proposed would be a reasonable one.
honestly don't see where Liles fits in our lineup. It forces the Canucks to dump Ballard, and it doesn't make much sense to deal Luongo for a dman only to dump Ballard at a low price. And as I've said many times, there is no need to dump Ballard, now that he should be finally able to settle onto his natural side as a the 3rd pairing left side dman, and gets to play next to a player that he's shown chemistry with in the past (where he's played his best hockey in Vancouver).

Otherwise, the Canucks top-4 is already set (Hamhuis-Bieksa, Edler-Garrison). So what's really the point in bringing in a $4mill/yr dman, who's tied up for another 4 years? The Canucks don't need Liles to help the PP (already a top-rated PP and adding Garrison to it). So really, how much does it benefit the team to deal Luongo for a dman, only to have to drop Ballard for nothing just to clear his salary to fit in Liles?

And MacArthur doesn't make a lot of sense either. The Canucks have a lot of wingers as it is. If they're adding another one, it has to be a legit top-6 guy that addresses team needs (like Doan would)... otherwise you have Daniel and Burrows on the top unit, and Booth, Higgins, Hansen and Raymond juggling on the 2nd and 3rd lines. Again, I ask how much sense does it make to trade Luongo for another 2nd/3rd line tweener who doesn't bring anything we don't already have?

I'd rather deal Luongo for prospects/draft picks that address organization holes long-term than trade him for pieces that we already have, that further force us to dump other salary or other assets at rock bottom prices just to fit the roster.

If Liles/MacArthur are the type of offers Gillis is getting, I'd rather just hold on to Luongo and see if he can generate a better return during the year. As we see every year, teams get more desperate as the season goes on (why we often see higher prices paid for rentals at the deadline then we do for those same players with a full year on their contracts in the offseason).

The trade I suggested at the start of the offseason was Luongo to Toronto for Ashton and Colborne, and add in Lombardi as a pure salary dump if necessary. I'd still make that offer now. I wouldn't touch Liles at all... MacArthur possibly, only because he has a year left on his deal and can fit in somewhere (probably force us to dump Raymond)... but again, it doesn't make sense to add players that don't really improve our roster, while forcing us to dump other assets at low prices just to fit them - which would be the case with Liles, having to dump (or waive) Ballard. That doesn't seem like very good asset management to me.

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09-12-2012, 09:05 PM
  #73
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If that weren't a problem, then why did this whole situation come up in the first place? What happens in three years when Schneider is a UFA and Vancouver still has Luongo because no one will touch that contract after the salary rollbacks and Schneider walks because he wants more playing time? I'd say there's a problem.
Vancouver has been a win now team for the past 3 years, they're only goal is to win the cup, they don't look too far ahead. I'd rather stick with both and start Schneider 50 and Lou 32 or something.

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09-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #74
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Luongo to Tampa Bay, Malone and Tokarski to NJ and Zubrus + Tallinder to Vancouver...?
If they trust Lindback I doubt they push him to back up again

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09-12-2012, 09:06 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Karitimes View Post
Justice. Captain? Contract that takes you to 42? Nothing on Lou, poor asset management just shouldn't be rewarded.
How is it poor asset management? Got him for a fair price, became a star there, got pushed out by a younger player. And now they'll get a decent asset for him, not sure how you can throw out poor asset management before a trade is made. And this is poor asset management to you?

As for the contract, Luongo himself has said he likely won't finish it, if you look closely at the deal it's clear he won't finish it. And the cap hit is middle of the road for a starting goale. I don't see a problem. It's a cap circumvention contract, there's a reason it was investigated by the league.

Poor asset management indeed. And who said losing Luongo was a reward?

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