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The Lockout Thread: Good Things Come To Those Who Wait

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Old
09-12-2012, 02:25 PM
  #351
geehaad
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Yeah, I have to agree...once you offer anything, it is always on the table.

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09-12-2012, 02:44 PM
  #352
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
It's negotiation tactics, but it assumes the other side has the negotiation skills of a child. The "take it or leave it" approach isn't going to work on either side, since neither side is run by a 7-year-old.

I'm sure the offers will get worse from both sides, but eventually, both sides will get their head out of their respective rear ends, and they'll come back to where they are currently. Not much of a threat.
Meh, I still don't see it as immaturity. It's a tactic. I agree that they'll still probably come back to where they are and that once something is on the table, it's never really off, but it's still just part of the process.

I used to negotiate licensing deals in a prior job and have seen the "final offer, take it or leave it.....If you don't take this offer now, it's off the table" type of ultimatums all the time. Rarely were they ever true, but they were used to gauge the other sides resolve and if they'd blink and to set a tone. I'm not saying that it's an effective tactic, but I wouldn't say it's the two sides being immature either. It just is what it is.

And sometimes it can set a tone. One example that my Boss used was when we were meeting in NYC to iron out the final sticking points of a deal with an overseas company. We had plan to negotiate for a full week. Right away on Monday, the other guys came forward with no movement and actually brought up some new issues. My boss stood up and said: "enjoy your week in NY" and left the room. We all followed and he sent us home for the week. Now, when we eventually came back to the table, the other side didn't cave to our position, but they were much more reasonable and we ended up coming to agreement. Someone might call what he did immature, but it was a calculated move on his part.

My point is this kind of stuff happens all the time, just that with all of this under the microscope, you get to see it first hand now.

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Old
09-12-2012, 02:55 PM
  #353
Boom Boom Anton
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Quote:
NHL counter-proposal today was six years in length: offered to start players' share at 49 percent and end it at 47 percent at end of term
What was the original NHL proposal starting point again?

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Old
09-12-2012, 02:57 PM
  #354
DaveG
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09-12-2012, 03:05 PM
  #355
Boom Boom Anton
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Thanks Dave.

Well, I guess it's a positive that they are at least trading actual proposals now.

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09-12-2012, 03:15 PM
  #356
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Does anyone know what is meant by this McKenzie Tweet?

Quote:
Now that NHL and NHLPA have agreed on mechanics of sending to AHL players on NHL two-way contracts, the actual process has begun.
What was the agreement that was reached?

My understanding is that the following Canes w/ 2way are waiver eligible: Bowman, Boychuk, Gragnani, Krueger, Peters, Samson, Sanguinetti, Brett Sutter, Terry, and Wallace (and a couple others).

But Dalpe, Skinner, Welsh, Faulk and others are exempt.

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09-12-2012, 03:39 PM
  #357
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Something to the effect of anyone on a 2 way contract can be sent to the AHL before September 15 without going through waivers and can come back to the NHL without going through waivers up until 3 days before the season starts.

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Old
09-12-2012, 04:59 PM
  #358
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Ugh, watching Fehr's presser is just painful. Just blasting the ownership, blasting the NHL's proposal, blasting the cap, he's on a rampage.

We could be in for a long one. I understand it's a negotiation and things could change, but this could get really ugly. Even as pro-PA as I am, I recognize that the owners took a significant step from their original proposal. Which sounds good as far as negotiation goes, because there's some movement. However, the PA has basically refused to move from their original proposal. And why should they, considering they got the ownership to move from 43 percent to 49 percent by sticking to their guns.

There's still the main issue that's blocking both sides. Fehr says the PA won't accept any proposal that includes paycuts. Bettman says the owners won't accept any proposal that doesn't include paycuts. And the world keeps spinning...

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Old
09-12-2012, 05:08 PM
  #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
the PA has basically refused to move from their original proposal. And why should they, considering they got the ownership to move from 43 percent to 49 percent by sticking to their guns.
On the other hand, the owners were sort of obligated to move first because of the absurd first proposal they put forward.

I don't expect any of this to be resolved before Halloween at the very earliest. At this point I'm almost thankful that I get a refund for the crummy early-season games.

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Old
09-12-2012, 05:45 PM
  #360
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Seemed like a movement in the right direction today until fehr ripped the owners and the NHL a new one during his presser.

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09-12-2012, 07:16 PM
  #361
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Lockout here we come... What I don't get is that they don't meet everyday and we've only been hearing about negotiations for about a month. They didn't have time to negotiate during the season or something?

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09-12-2012, 07:47 PM
  #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gr8Dan View Post
Lockout here we come... What I don't get is that they don't meet everyday and we've only been hearing about negotiations for about a month. They didn't have time to negotiate during the season or something?
I believe the NHLPA has a "No negotiation while playing" policy.

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Old
09-12-2012, 07:55 PM
  #363
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So the millionaires and the billionaires are still bickering. Thanks a lot you jerks.

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09-12-2012, 08:01 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by HisIceness View Post
So the millionaires and the billionaires are still bickering. Thanks a lot you jerks.
This.

I was on the players side, but as we inch closer to the deadline, they both are just a bunch of greedy mother*****ers.

They are too worried about whose going to win and lose in these negotiations, but in reality the real losers are us, the fans.

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Old
09-12-2012, 08:32 PM
  #365
Blueline Bomber
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To be fair:

Quote:
James Mirtle ‏@mirtle

Difference between NHL/NHLPA offers is now approximately $215-million a season, based on current growth rate. So they're getting closer.
I don't care if you are a millionaire or a billionaire. 215 million a season is a large chunk of change. That's something worth negotiating over.

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Old
09-12-2012, 08:41 PM
  #366
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This **** is depressing

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09-12-2012, 09:51 PM
  #367
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The NHLPA is being absolutely ****ing ridiculous. This lockout is completely on them, not Bettman and not the owners.

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Old
09-12-2012, 09:57 PM
  #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
The NHLPA is being absolutely ****ing ridiculous. This lockout is completely on them, not Bettman and not the owners.
Based on what? If the lockout happens, it's on both sides. The owners for creating the problem in the first place and expecting the players to fix their mistake, and the players for delaying and refusing to help the owners fix said problem. And both sides for posturing and playing games rather than getting to the brass tacks and sitting down and actually working things out.

Both sides make good cases. If more than half the owners are losing money annually, it needs to be addressed. At the same time, the players signed the contracts (with the owners) agreeing to be paid [X] amount. They should be paid [X] amount. It's not their fault the owners made [X] amount too high for their own good.

And unfortunately, while both sides make good cases, one side has to concede in order to get a deal done. Either the players need to accept a pay cut, or the owners need to figure out a way to spread the wealth that doesn't include taking it from a player's paycheck.

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Old
09-12-2012, 10:04 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Based on what? If the lockout happens, it's on both sides. The owners for creating the problem in the first place and expecting the players to fix their mistake, and the players for delaying and refusing to help the owners fix said problem. And both sides for posturing and playing games rather than getting to the brass tacks and sitting down and actually working things out.

Both sides make good cases. If more than half the owners are losing money annually, it needs to be addressed. At the same time, the players signed the contracts (with the owners) agreeing to be paid [X] amount. They should be paid [X] amount. It's not their fault the owners made [X] amount too high for their own good.

And unfortunately, while both sides make good cases, one side has to concede in order to get a deal done. Either the players need to accept a pay cut, or the owners need to figure out a way to spread the wealth that doesn't include taking it from a player's paycheck.
Based on the fact that they're unwilling to negotiate, and keep throwing the same proposals at the owners with minor tweaks.

They've got players tweeting *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing about **** from the same script that isn't even relevant to the negotiations.

The owners have made actual concessions, and are more than justified in asking for revenue sharing closer to 50%.

Fun fact, the owners get the smallest piece of the smallest pie in any of the four major sports. Why should they not want something more similar to the others?

Fehr has brainwashed the players into thinking that they're in this awful work environment, when in reality player salaries have gone way up since the last CBA.

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09-12-2012, 10:51 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutdown Sutter View Post
Based on the fact that they're unwilling to negotiate, and keep throwing the same proposals at the owners with minor tweaks.
Like I said earlier, their "unwillingness" has gotten the owners to move from 43% to 49%. If you can get the other side to compete against itself, why wouldn't you?

And this is ignoring the fact the players agreed to take less in their latest proposal. I believe it was 57 next year, 54 the following year, the 52 the three years after.

Quote:
They've got players tweeting *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing and *****ing about **** from the same script that isn't even relevant to the negotiations.
And if the owners weren't under a non-disclosure, we'd hear the same from them. Hell, Bettmans one of the only ones who can speak from their side and he's done plenty of *****ing.

Quote:
The owners have made actual concessions, and are more than justified in asking for revenue sharing closer to 50%.
1. Neither side has made concessions. The players in their proposals have essentially said "We'll take a smaller raise from here on out...but we're still get a raise". The owners have basically said "We'll give you a smaller paycut in this proposal...but you're still getting a paycut". They're both "conceding" the other side's money.

Question: I'm assuming you see the owners movement from 43% to 49% as a "concession". If the players had started out at 71% (a 14% raise instead of a 14% paycut) and had moved to 65%, is that "conceding" anything?

2. The owners are completely justified in asking for 50%. Just like the players are justified in keeping it at 57%. Like I said, there's a good case for both.

Quote:
Fehr has brainwashed the players into thinking that they're in this awful work environment, when in reality player salaries have gone way up since the last CBA.
And Bettman has the owners convinced that since some markets are struggling, ALL markets need more income. The players agree that something needs to be done to help Pheonix, Dallas, etc. However, They don't want to line the pockets of Toronto, New York, etc in the process.

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:43 AM
  #371
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Bettman is not driving this train. The owners are, Bettman works for them.

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09-13-2012, 07:20 AM
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
Bettman is not driving this train. The owners are, Bettman works for them.
Still doesn't mean I wouldnt mind if bear loved him tenderly.

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09-13-2012, 07:29 AM
  #373
Boom Boom Anton
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I'm not on the owners or players side, but unless something starts to give, I don't see how a lockout is avoided. Fehr is pretty entrenched and the owners have shown in previous years that they are ok with losing a season to get what they want.

While the owners have moved to a more reasonable proposal, it should be noted that it's like giving the sleeves off their vest. According to their numbers, they currently receive 43% of the revenue and their latest proposal still moves them to 51-53%. So while it is more reasonable, they aren't really "giving anything up". The players on the other hand, currently get 57%. So for them to move to 50% would mean they are giving up something they currently have.

My guess is that in the end, they'll come to some sort of stepdown over time to eventually get to ~50% (which I think is more fair). While $215M is a lot of money, it is just over 6% of the total $3.3B (and growing) pot of total revenue they are arguing about.

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Old
09-13-2012, 07:52 AM
  #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens1Canes2 View Post
Bettman is not driving this train. The owners are, Bettman works for them.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'd be willing to bet that Bettman's ego plays a *huge* role in all of this.

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Old
09-13-2012, 08:05 AM
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geehaad View Post
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but I'd be willing to bet that Bettman's ego plays a *huge* role in all of this.
Judging by a lot of what I'm reading, the players ego plays a huge role as well. Seems a lot weren't happy that they "lost" the last CBA and now are expected to give up more. They're right to be unhappy about that, but this isn't a "if it's not broke, don't fix it" situation. The current system is broke, and it needs fixing.

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