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Well the off season is basically over....Lets grade it!

View Poll Results: Overall grade for the Wings off season
A 3 3.00%
B 4 4.00%
C 25 25.00%
D 38 38.00%
F 28 28.00%
Anything else. Put in your reply 2 2.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-12-2012, 10:37 PM
  #1
WingedWheel1987
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Well the off season is basically over....Lets grade it!

I wasnt sure if i should put this in the offseason thread, but i wanted to include a poll so i made a new thread. Mods can move this thread if they dont want the board to get cluttered with more offseason threads.


Let me summarize the additions the Wings have made since their 1st round exit to the Nashville Predators a few months back.

Jonas "Monster" Gustavsson
Mikael Samuelsson
Jordon Tootoo
Carlo Colaiacovo


What is your overall grade? Do you feel the right moves were made? If no, what do you think should have been done? Please include a grade at the end of your post. A/B/C/D/F (Ended up adding a poll)

-------------My Analysis--------------------------------------------------------

The Gustavsson signing was a meh signing. I felt Joey Mac was fine after Babs realized Mr. Toilet fixer wasnt fit to play in the NHL anymore. I dont expect him to push Howard and make him play better.

Mikael Samuelsson....................where do i begin with Sammy, how about his age? 35 years old and almost 36......Another Wings retread that Ken Holland overpaid, too many years and a NTC for the cherry on top. Would have rather seen a prospect get his spot.

Jordan Tootoo. I dont hate the signing, but i dont like it either. It's another meh signing. He will be decent on the 4th line and add some grit. I dont think his signing will matter one bit. He will just blend in with the other 99000000 bottom six players the Wings have.

Last.........but certainly not least (that belongs to Sammy), Carlo Colaiacovo. He is injury prone and is exact opposite of what the Wings defense needs. If he is behind Kindl on the depth chart, i could live with this signing and actually end up liking it since it gives the Wings some depth at defense, which they obviously need.

I will be very generous and give Holland/Wings management a solid D. They overpaid for complimentary players and struck out on star players. They offered lowball contracts (relatively speaking) for Suter and definitely Parise, but had no problem giving players like Sammy 3.5 million x 2 years.

The additions they did make would not have been so bad if they fixed any of the Wings primary problems, which they did not. Top six winger (legit one NOT SAMMY), top pairing d-man. (Kronwall is not that guy), and they failed to replace Stuart who was a top for d-man. (God help us if Quincey was actually Holland's idea for Stuart's replacement) I would feel much better if Quincey was just a panic move. The thought of Holland researching this addition and thinking he is an adequate Stuart replacement hurts my soul.

None of these signings would be bad if there was no context, but there is and with that i am pretty unhappy.

Let's not forget the prospects that will join the Wings in 2013 after the lockout ruins this season.

Brendan Smith and Gustav Nyquist (maybe Tatar..........lol JK, he will be in GR for another decade)

Both have the tools and skill that we might end up seeing them as a legit top pairing d-man and a top six player. They have great potential, but potential only goes so far. Will they actually end up being the players we expect them to be? I really wish Smith had played more last year, but alas Kenny wanted to see him dominate the AHL for another season.

Nyquist didnt look completely out of place last year, but he didnt look ready.

Comments and criticisms are very welcome.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:05 PM
  #2
Flowah
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The deal I'm seeing for Abby alone is enough to make me cringe. And the idea that some of our most talented young guys might not get much of a chance because of oldbies is even more distressing. D.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:06 PM
  #3
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Jonas "Monster" Gustavsson --- Decent signing, I think. But he's a backup goalie/.
Mikael Samuelsson -- Horrible move. Unnecessary
Jordon Tootoo -- Would love this move IF our bottom six wasn't overcrowded
Carlo Colaiacovo -- Mediocre defenseman who will take time from either Smith or Kindl.

We had three major needs:
1. Top Pairing defenseman
2. PK Defense with toughness
3. Top Six Winger

We got Zero.

If there was a plus side, it was that we could develop youngsters. Instead we've signed average to below average NHLers that will make it hard for the Wings to play their kids.

Complete and utter failure - made worse when you consider that we traded our first round pick for a guy we waived, when we had all this cap money to spend, and when we have a prospect list 20 guys deep, and yet we can't pull the trigger on a trade??
Pff.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:08 PM
  #4
The Zetterberg Era
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Went with a D as well. Mostly has to do with the talk leading up to this off-season. They set the bar high and didn't get it. We didn't make up that they needed big signings, they said it over and over from management and coaching staff. I will always defend Ken Holland, but that doesn't mean his off-season wasn't disappointing this year. On the flip side an F would have been reaching for guys and giving out a series of terrible contracts. Really I am more of a D+, the guys signed have some benefits and fix some problems. But we were promised a lot more in my opinion.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:10 PM
  #5
WingedWheel1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Went with a D as well. Mostly has to do with the talk leading up to this off-season. They set the bar high and didn't get it. We didn't make up that they needed big signings, they said it over and over from management and coaching staff. I will always defend Ken Holland, but that doesn't mean his off-season wasn't disappointing this year. On the flip side an F would have been reaching for guys and giving out a series of terrible contracts. Really I am more of a D+, the guys signed have some benefits and fix some problems. But we were promised a lot more in my opinion.
That seems like a pretty fair observation. I admit i was penciling in Suter in the lineup since the beginning of last season.

My only critique is that Holland saw this train wreck coming since 2009 and just preached, "we like our team" and "the price was just too high" and unfortunately didnt do anything to improve because of that. He was too conservative IMO and that got us to this off season which required the Wings to hit home runs instead of a double or triple. I am not sure if Holland thought Lidstrom was gonna come back for one more year which would have bought him another year.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:17 PM
  #6
The Zetterberg Era
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
That seems like a pretty fair observation. I admit i was penciling in Suter in the lineup since the beginning of last season.

My only critique is that Holland saw this train wreck coming since 2009 and just preached, "we like our team" and "the price was just too high" and unfortunately didnt do anything to improve because of that. He was too conservative IMO and that got us to this off season which required the Wings to hit home runs instead of a double or triple.
We will see for at least the last two years you could tell he was concerned about the CBA. I think he is getting a little conservative but I don't think he is outright failing us. This team has not been healthy in the post-season, I had a good feeling about them at the all-star break and really everything fell apart. I don't know if there was much he could have done there.

This is year one really for me. I know a lot of you feel differently, but this is the first time I have thought what is Kenny doing? I think he has earned the right to fix it, I am not sure how he does it, but he has fixed things before when it seemed like a lot of people thought it was going south. We need some of the prospects to step up, really it has been a while in that department. I believe in a lot of the kids and I think they will get playing time if they beat guys for jobs. I think there will be more opportunity there because lets face it a lot of this stalling and not playing guys is because they were still a fairly successful team. It was interesting to see last year during the slide and I know there were injuries Nyquist and Smith were up. They were playing, not as much as some would like. But I think we will see more of that if we really are in the 5-10 range in seeds.

At the end of the day they need to win hockey games. If these guys aren't doing it I think you can expect a little more pressure applied from some of the kids we have been keeping down.

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:20 PM
  #7
WesNichols14
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pretty well described up top. think Gustavsson will surprise people. but Sammy shouldn't have been signed. Tootoo good signing as it adds legit grit to our team. Burtuzzi falls in the same category as Sammy. Carlo Colaiacovo was sad but necessary. lets not forget and is the only reason i gave him a C, is The Helm Deal, and Damian Brunner, he might end up surprising a lot of people. he reportedly got an offer from over half the league and chose us. hes only making like 1.1 mil (cap space) and has speed and hands. give him the time of the lockout to adjust to the rink size he could be what Pav has been needing for a while. a shoot 1st winger that can actually shoot. (not Franzen's lalalalala ive got a long term contract so today im gonna just skate around and next week i'll score 3 goals)

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Old
09-12-2012, 11:24 PM
  #8
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I liked the Gustavsson and Tootoo moves, but when you factor in everything it has to be an F.

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:23 AM
  #9
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His failures this year are hard to ignore. But really, he started locking himself into this position two years ago when he resigned both Bert and Homer and also signed Modano.

Think about who our so-called young roster players are.
Helm 2005 pick
Abdelkader 2005 pick
Kindl 2005 pick
Howard 2003 pick
Ericsson 2002 pick

We're not developing players.
We're doing something very wrong with player development.

Since the 2006 draft, our picks have 370 games played. 205 are by Shawn Matthias.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:18 AM
  #10
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Bob, please stop. Everything you're saying hurts so much

Holland, why?

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Old
09-13-2012, 03:05 AM
  #11
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E only for Tootoo and Monster signings. Holland's job is making me sick. I'm starting to lose my patience.

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Old
09-13-2012, 03:29 AM
  #12
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went with a D because of the Gustavsson and Brunner signings and the Helm extension

people underestimate the importance of having a good backup

everything else....bleh

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Old
09-13-2012, 03:57 AM
  #13
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I give this offseason's performance a C.

Jonas "Monster" Gustavsson

I think this is a good signing. He was an ok starter (at times) for a mediocre team and he'll be a great backup on this team. He'll be better than Conklin and even MacDonald. Very good signing.

Mikael Samuelsson

We needed a RHS top 6 winger. Samuelsson can play in the top 6, but I think he'd be better as a depth player on the third line. Ok signing. Will help the depth issues we had last season and the PP too.

Jordon Tootoo

I give credit to Holland for trying something different and getting some grit to add to the bottom 6. This was always something the fans wanted. He isn't going to win every fight or put up a lot of numbers, but he adds another dimension to the fourth line. And he's a righty, which is a plus in my book. Good signing

Carlo Colaiacovo

A lot of people are bashing this signing. He'll contribute to the PP and add some veteran presence. You take what you can get. He won't PK, which is one thing I don't like about this signing and he has a history with injuries. It's up to Smith and Kindl to keep him out of the starting lineup.

Damien Brunner

People forget this guy was signed and he could potentially be a steal. Seems to have a great shot and awareness for the net. He impressed at the WC and Babcock rates him highly it seems. I still trust his judgment.

This offseason Holland needed to address five things:

- Top 6 winger
- Depth
- Replacement for Lidstrom
- Replacement for Stuart
- Backup goaltending.

I think he addressed 2.5 of those. He got depth, he got backup goaltending and with Brunner or Samuelsson he might have addressed the top 6 forward. I would have prefered Parise (who is dead to me) or another actual top 6 forward with NHL experience. They needed to replace Hudler, which isn't too hard.

They failed to replace Lidstrom (not that easy and on that note, Suter is dead to me too) and I'm not sold on Quincey replacing Stuart. He'll have to prove us wrong.

Possible lineup
:

Nyquist - Datsyuk - Brunner
Filppula - Zetterberg - Franzen
Bertuzzi - Helm - Samuelsson
Cleary - Abdelkader - Tootoo
Miller, Eaves, Mursak, Emmerton (two of these guys will be cut)

Kronwall - Smith
Ericsson - White
Colaiacovo - Quincey
Kindl

Howard
Gustavasson

I don't expect much from this team. At least make the playoffs, who knows what happens after that. Just remember the whole Central division had a pretty poor offseason. Chicago didn't get much better, St. Louis stayed the same (I doubt Halak/Elliott have another ridiculous season like last year), Nashville got worse and Columbus got even worse (how is that possible? I don't know). This team can compete in this division, for sure.

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Old
09-13-2012, 05:08 AM
  #14
Henkka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
His failures this year are hard to ignore. But really, he started locking himself into this position two years ago when he resigned both Bert and Homer and also signed Modano.

Think about who our so-called young roster players are.
Helm 2005 pick
Abdelkader 2005 pick
Kindl 2005 pick
Howard 2003 pick
Ericsson 2002 pick

We're not developing players.
We're doing something very wrong with player development.

Since the 2006 draft, our picks have 370 games played. 205 are by Shawn Matthias.
If we are not developing NHL players the problem is not totally at NHL side. When Curt Fraser joined the Giffins, the prospect production level stalled and we have these Mursaks and Emmerton's here right now. I think Blashill will make a huge change back to those good days, when Danton Cole, Greg Ireland and Mike Stothers were Griffins head coaches.

Fraser is the biggest mistake from Holland. Not any of his current signings.

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Old
09-13-2012, 07:29 AM
  #15
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I give it a C based on Monster, and Brunner's potential.

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Old
09-13-2012, 08:17 AM
  #16
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Jonas Gustavsson: B
Damien Brunner: B
Mikael Samuelsson: C
Jordon Tootoo: B
Carlo Colaiacovo: C

Acquiring a top 2 d-man: F
Acquiring a top 6 forward: F

Add it all up and it amounts to a C-/D+

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Old
09-13-2012, 09:13 AM
  #17
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I gave it D+. But that doesn't mean I'm ready to run Holland out of town.

We missed out on Parise and Suter. You can't really blame Holland because regardless of how high or low his offers were to them the player(s) still have to choose to come here and its seems they had their hearts set on playing together in Minny when it was all said and done. But that's :

As for the signings (excluding re-signings of Helm, Bert, Abby and Lord Quincey):

Tootoo: Probably my favorite signing of offseason (although that aint saying much). Brings some grit to bottom 6.

Monster: Good signing to back up Jimmy. Major upgrade over Conklin and JMac

Sammy: Age, chest shots, been there done that scenario, length, NTC, and really he wasn't that necessary to begin. I understand not wanting to give Hudler a lot of money, but I'm not sure what Sammy brings anymore that we couldn't get from Brunner, Gus or Tatar. "Oooo he can play the point on the PP!!!"

Brunner: I didn't know much about him but there's top 6 potential. Boom or Bust guy.

CarloCo: Meh. 6/7th D. He'll probably fall somewhere in between Salei and Commodore. Not great but not bad enough where we'll be at gaffs left and right. Hopefully he's in the press box more than Kindl though. Kindl's been rotted enough.


Very meh off-season. Most of the frustration is towards who or what we didn't get than what we did. We signed a plethora of nice secondary pieces but got no help in the Top 6 or "replacement" for Lids. Didn't really replace Stuart effectively either. We basically have 7 Offensive D-Men.


Last edited by Big Poppa Puck: 09-13-2012 at 09:24 AM. Reason: typos
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Old
09-13-2012, 09:51 AM
  #18
doublejack
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Holland earned a solid F this summer. No question about it. We have more holes now than we did in May, and a majority of the contracts he handed out were simply awful. It's a repeat of last summer, only worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Jonas "Monster" Gustavsson --- Decent signing, I think. But he's a backup goalie/.
Mikael Samuelsson -- Horrible move. Unnecessary
Jordon Tootoo -- Would love this move IF our bottom six wasn't overcrowded
Carlo Colaiacovo -- Mediocre defenseman who will take time from either Smith or Kindl.

We had three major needs:
1. Top Pairing defenseman
2. PK Defense with toughness
3. Top Six Winger

We got Zero.

If there was a plus side, it was that we could develop youngsters. Instead we've signed average to below average NHLers that will make it hard for the Wings to play their kids.

Complete and utter failure - made worse when you consider that we traded our first round pick for a guy we waived, when we had all this cap money to spend, and when we have a prospect list 20 guys deep, and yet we can't pull the trigger on a trade??
Pff.
Could not agree more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
His failures this year are hard to ignore. But really, he started locking himself into this position two years ago when he resigned both Bert and Homer and also signed Modano.

Think about who our so-called young roster players are.
Helm 2005 pick
Abdelkader 2005 pick
Kindl 2005 pick
Howard 2003 pick
Ericsson 2002 pick

We're not developing players.
We're doing something very wrong with player development.

Since the 2006 draft, our picks have 370 games played. 205 are by Shawn Matthias.
Damn! If this isn't an indictment of "over ripe", I don't know what is. Posters can say that we have prospects in the pipeline, but the numbers don't lie. We SUCK at developing them. The dead wing era 2.0 is on the way, people. It's not here yet... but coming quickly.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:14 AM
  #19
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I gave Holland a 'D' based on the assumption that Brunner actually ends up a solid (not fringe) top-6 forward.

If he flops...


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Old
09-13-2012, 11:03 AM
  #20
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Well, here's what the roster looked like at the end of last season.

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi(UFA-extension signed)
Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler(UFA)
Cleary-Helm(RFA)-Miller
Emmerton-Abdelkader(RFA)-Holmstrom(UFA-retiring)
Eaves-Mursak

Lidstrom(UFA-retiring)-White
Kronwall-Stuart(UFA)
Quincey(RFA)-Ericsson
Kindl

Howard
MacDonald

Assume the RFAs to be re-signed. The Wings need to then re-sign or replace the UFAs. That's two defensemen in the top-four, a top-six forward, a PP specialist forward, and then a depth scoring forward in Bertuzzi who already has an extension (but I'm counting as part of the offseason grade).

So let's order this by priorities.

1. Defense.
Absolutely the number one. Although Quincey can effectively be considered Stuart's replacement, there's still no "Lidstrom" replacement. Which is the more important part. Carlo Colaiacovo is a decent defenseman, but he's not Lidstrom. He'll probably end up being the #7, in all honesty. Hopefully Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl have breakout years.

2. Top-six forward
Jiri Hudler wanted to come back and was working with Holland to come back. Holland didn't want to pay him more than $3.3m, which is pretty low for a guy in his 20s who puts up 25 goals and 50+ points. Holland instead went out right away and signed Mikael Samuelsson at $3m. Instead of waiting until after Parise/Suter made their decisions he basically told Hudler "Sorry, no room at the inn." And he followed the Parise decision by not signing any of the remaining top-six forwards. Samuelsson has shown the capability to score at a top-six level in Vancouver and Florida, but it's unlikely he'll get the same amount of clean, offensive-zone ice time that he did there.

3. Depth scoring
Holland extended Todd Bertuzzi. He also signed Swiss forward Damien Brunner at the behest of coach Mike Babcock. He's got some speed, he's right-handed, and he can shoot. But the question is, can he score at the NHL level?

4. Other signings
Holland made an excellent move in acquiring forward Jordin Tootoo. Tootoo is an abrasive pest who likes to hit and has scoring ability, so he can be moved up and down throughout the lineup as coach Babcock wishes. Ideally, a line of Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo would be iced to give opposing coaches and star players fits.

So how did Holland do, exactly?

He failed to shore up the defense as necessary despite pursuit of both Salo and Suter, and possibly also Weber. Ultimately, Lidstrom and Stuart are replaced by Smith and Quincey, and Carlo Colaiacovo takes the open 6th or 7th spot.

He signed Samuelsson instead of better available options (Hudler, Semin, others) for a top-six forward, options he chose to pass on altogether.

He acquired a potentially dangerous depth scorer in Brunner who could prove to be a bust or a top-sixer. He also extended arguably the worst winger on the team at over $2m for 2 years.

He improved the bottom six dramatically, basically replacing Holmstrom with Tootoo.

So he failed big time in area 1, passed area 2 but did not do as well as he could and should have, passed area 3 ok, and passed area 4 with flying colors.

I have to say D.

It would look a lot better if:

Bertuzzi were not re-signed, Hudler were, and (i've said this before) Holland had also been working to sign Matt Carle. Carle at $5.5m or even $6m is not bad when compared to Quincey at $4m.

That puts Hudler as the top-sixer (achieved!) and Samuelsson as the depth scoring (upgrade over Bertuzzi!) as well as a solid defenseman added to the lineup. Carle is overpaid, but he was the second-best defenseman available on the market and is still pretty darn good. Kyle Wellwood would have been another good addition.

Although... Jason Arnott is still available and would be a great signing if he came on the cheap. Faceoffs, decent offensive ability, big body, solid defensive play. Third or fourth line center?

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:17 AM
  #21
Zetterberg4Captain
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he gets an F

while the monster and tootoo signings were solid they were and remain fringe additions that any other NHL, ECHL, AHL, CHL GM could make in their sleep

they do not consitiute doing your job properly

failing to address lidstrom in the summer of 2012 and the summer of 2012 only was designed purposely to fail. it cant and could not be done. people who really and truthfully believe it could are simply being nieve

the process to fill the hole should have started years ago(thats years), failing to wait is just that, failing. you dont choose to ignore routine maintenace on your older car and then when it fails and dies, whine about how their was nothing you could have done about it. A GM's job is to constantly, every single year, upgrade and prepare for the years to come

holland simply got too passive and goot too anamered with his own press hype

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09-13-2012, 11:39 AM
  #22
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There is no way he deserves a C, let a lone a B.
Rose colored glasses must be on sale at the Walmart optometrist

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09-13-2012, 11:44 AM
  #23
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If we are not developing NHL players the problem is not totally at NHL side. When Curt Fraser joined the Giffins, the prospect production level stalled and we have these Mursaks and Emmerton's here right now. I think Blashill will make a huge change back to those good days, when Danton Cole, Greg Ireland and Mike Stothers were Griffins head coaches.

Fraser is the biggest mistake from Holland. Not any of his current signings.
The problem isn't what they do in Grand Rapids, in my view.
the problem is that they can't get icetime in the NHL.

Just consider how many young Red Wings forwards yet to establish themselves who are either in the NHL now or who will be coming in soon ...
now ask yourself if they're going to get a decent shot at any icetime in the next two years.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:56 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
I give it a C based on Monster, and Brunner's potential.
My gut reaction was C-. Simply because while Holland didn't land anybody of true significance yet, he also didn't overreact and make a bad move. The farm is still in good shape and there's tons of cap flexibility. So that's a plus. Basically he was sitting at a low B last off-season and now he's got a gradual slip going as things continue to not pan out.

I could bump it up a few spots if Brunner, Nyquist, and Smith all are amazing. That would be the only saving grace unless he's got a trick up his sleeve here.

But I guess an average/below-average grade still makes us homers around here. Yeesh.

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09-13-2012, 12:03 PM
  #25
WingedWheel1987
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I totally forgot about Brunner. Unfortunately it doesnt change my grade since the defense is still atrocious.

He needs to be a legit top six player for me even remotely care. Wings have enough bottom six players already.

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