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1987 Canada Cup: CCCP vs Canada - Game One, Two & Three

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:55 AM
  #51
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Gretzky, Messier, Larionov and Gartner appeared on OTR on Tuesday, it's already up on YouTube. Not much new information if any, but I thought I would share anyway.

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09-13-2012, 05:13 AM
  #52
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Some notions (I haven't watched the games now, though):

- Is it just me or does Krutov make Bourque look really poor in game 2, beating him constantly 1-on-1?
- Where's Larionov?
- Fetisov makes mistakes in the final game, but all in all, he is one of the best players IMO
- Bykov (1+3 in the finals, I think?) and Khomutov (3+2) never get enough credit; as far as I'm concerned, they were at least as good as their linemate Kamensky
- Makarov is playing really well here, but overall, I think his decline had started a bit; for example, a few months later in the 1988 Winter Olympics, Tikhonov had to bench him occasionally

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09-13-2012, 07:20 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LukeD View Post
My goodness, Gretzky must have gotten away with at least 10 huge hooks this game. Old time hockey
He sure did. The amount of hooking, holding and interference on both sides is astounding compared to today but despite that there's much more open ice and great scoring chances than today. Fun hockey to watch.

Gretzky is an absolute joy to watch. Five points in Game 2 and he should have had more.

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Old
09-13-2012, 07:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
According to the announcers, the Soviets requested Koharski because they thought he did a strong job in their earlier games.

A neutral country ref, Paul Stewart (USA), reffed game two.

Not that I expect that to hve ANY impact on the interweb conspiracy theories, though.
That is the truth. Its detailed quite well in the book "Gretzky to Lemieux: The Story of the 1987 Canada Cup". The Soviets felt the European refs were incompetant and unsuited for high-level play. They felt the Americans were very biased against them. They knew the Canadians would never agree to a Soviet ref. And Koharski had reffed a couple of their previous games in the round robin and they felt he'd done a fair and even job both games, so they actually proposed him for the finals.

The Canadians weren't thrilled with his reffing either - apparantly Gretzky called Koharski a traitor at one point after what he felt were some particularly bad penalties called against the Canadians.

Honestly, I thought he wasn't so bad. A lot of what he let go was just the way hockey was played in those days.

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09-13-2012, 07:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
That is the truth. Its detailed quite well in the book "Gretzky to Lemieux: The Story of the 1987 Canada Cup". The Soviets felt the European refs were incompetant and unsuited for high-level play. They felt the Americans were very biased against them. They knew the Canadians would never agree to a Soviet ref. And Koharski had reffed a couple of their previous games in the round robin and they felt he'd done a fair and even job both games, so they actually proposed him for the finals.

The Canadians weren't thrilled with his reffing either - apparantly Gretzky called Koharski a traitor at one point after what he felt were some particularly bad penalties called against the Canadians.

Honestly, I thought he wasn't so bad. A lot of what he let go was just the way hockey was played in those days.
It's too bad more people can't see this post.

Its unfortunate, but when people continue to hear the myth of clearly biased officiating in this series over and over again, soon they start to
believe it. It's a shame, because this was one of the best series ever, but whenever it gets brought up someone inevitably points to the officiating and the conversation shifts to that.

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09-13-2012, 08:43 AM
  #56
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Bingo.

I have made it a point to watch the rebroadcast of these games because it's the first time since these games actually happened in 1987 that I have watched them again in their entirety.

Aside from the entertainment value I wanted to focus on the officiating as much has been made from Russian posters at how biased the officiating was and that it clearly led to their loss. , it is taken as gospel by their posters here.

what have I found out? Basically exactly what you said. I've seen bad calls against the Russians or calls where the Canadians should have been penalised and i've thought 'gee, bad officiating" but then 5 minutes later I am seeing the same thing concerning the Canadians and thinking "we got robbed there"

And then I woke up and thought to myself.."hey, this is the way the game was called then" I had almost forgot.

Conclusion.....................Russia getting robbed is a myth. It was just two great teams playing great hockey where some team had to lose and Canada sneaked out the win by one goal, what can you say? It could have went either way, Canada on that day was the team fortunate enough to have won what was obviously going to be a tight series regardless of who won.

But it wasn't officiating that decided the victor, that is now 100% certain in my mind.If anything I would give an above poster who mentioned bad Russian goaltending as being the difference in this series.Some better work in goal and Russia may have won.

Of course, the goalie is part of the team, they count toward whether you have a better team or not, obviously Russia did not.

We can all put the cheating thing to rest now, any fair minded fan knows that's hogwash after watching these games without homer bias. I am sure it won't but we can all chalk that up to sore loserness around here from this point forward because that is all it is and I think this place is less for any baby wants it's bottle stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krut View Post
It's too bad more people can't see this post.

Its unfortunate, but when people continue to hear the myth of clearly biased officiating in this series over and over again, soon they start to
believe it. It's a shame, because this was one of the best series ever, but whenever it gets brought up someone inevitably points to the officiating and the conversation shifts to that.

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Old
09-13-2012, 08:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Krut View Post
It's too bad more people can't see this post.

Its unfortunate, but when people continue to hear the myth of clearly biased officiating in this series over and over again, soon they start to
believe it. It's a shame, because this was one of the best series ever, but whenever it gets brought up someone inevitably points to the officiating and the conversation shifts to that.
Not only that, but the myth that there were no international refs or linesmen in the Canada Cup. It's Owellian revisionism at its best.

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09-13-2012, 09:02 AM
  #58
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Not only that, but the myth that there were no international refs or linesmen in the Canada Cup. It's Owellian revisionism at its best.
People think because it was the 'Canada' Cup and spearheaded by Canada, that is wasn't a legit competition. As if anyone was forcing the other federations to play, and that there wasnt a lot pre-tournament negotations to get everyone on board.

Everything's a conspiracy to some people, though.

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09-13-2012, 09:53 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Some notions (I haven't watched the games now, though):

- Is it just me or does Krutov make Bourque look really poor in game 2, beating him constantly 1-on-1?
- Where's Larionov?
- Fetisov makes mistakes in the final game, but all in all, he is one of the best players IMO
- Bykov (1+3 in the finals, I think?) and Khomutov (3+2) never get enough credit; as far as I'm concerned, they were at least as good as their linemate Kamensky
- Makarov is playing really well here, but overall, I think his decline had started a bit; for example, a few months later in the 1988 Winter Olympics, Tikhonov had to bench him occasionally
Personally, I thought Bourque was poor in all three games. Best D man by far and away was Coffey with Murphy coming in second. Crossman and Rochefort were either solid or brutal, no middle ground.

That being said, that Soviet team was absolutely stacked withe talent upfront. Too bad Tikhonov rolled four lines all the time, it would've been nice to see the big three out there more often.

Larionov was the one of three that was the least effective but I think Messier had a lot to do with that.

That Bykov line was outstanding all series long and clutch.


Last edited by fuhr: 09-13-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 10:10 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
Bingo.

I have made it a point to watch the rebroadcast of these games because it's the first time since these games actually happened in 1987 that I have watched them again in their entirety.

Aside from the entertainment value I wanted to focus on the officiating as much has been made from Russian posters at how biased the officiating was and that it clearly led to their loss. , it is taken as gospel by their posters here.

what have I found out? Basically exactly what you said. I've seen bad calls against the Russians or calls where the Canadians should have been penalised and i've thought 'gee, bad officiating" but then 5 minutes later I am seeing the same thing concerning the Canadians and thinking "we got robbed there"

And then I woke up and thought to myself.."hey, this is the way the game was called then" I had almost forgot.

Conclusion.....................Russia getting robbed is a myth. It was just two great teams playing great hockey where some team had to lose and Canada sneaked out the win by one goal, what can you say? It could have went either way, Canada on that day was the team fortunate enough to have won what was obviously going to be a tight series regardless of who won.

But it wasn't officiating that decided the victor, that is now 100% certain in my mind.If anything I would give an above poster who mentioned bad Russian goaltending as being the difference in this series.Some better work in goal and Russia may have won.

Of course, the goalie is part of the team, they count toward whether you have a better team or not, obviously Russia did not.

We can all put the cheating thing to rest now, any fair minded fan knows that's hogwash after watching these games without homer bias. I am sure it won't but we can all chalk that up to sore loserness around here from this point forward because that is all it is and I think this place is less for any baby wants it's bottle stuff.

Couldn't agree more. To be honest, outside of the third game, Canada didn't even play that physical. By throwing two of Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier and Anderson over the boards for what seemed like three quarters of the game, over the first two, it was very much a skill on skill battle. Which was one of the main reasons, along with neither side having much in the way of quality depth on the backend, that the scoring was as high as it was.

While Russia may not have had the level of goaltending they were accustomed to with Tretiak, neither one of Sergei Mylnikov or Evgeny Belosheykin were poor in the series. Of the 33 goals scored over the three games, there were only a handful that I would consider to be poor goals.

Fuhr allowed 16 goals in the series and was easily one of Canada's best players. With such elite skill on the ice for much of the game and neither side playing a defensive system, goals were going to be scored.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:38 AM
  #61
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They're replaying again at midnight EST, and I'd imagine they'll replay a few times more given that this year marks the 25th anniversary of the series.
Midnight when??? This week??? Or next, etc.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:45 AM
  #62
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Midnight when??? This week??? Or next, etc.
on TSN2 (10pm here in Alberta)

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09-13-2012, 11:03 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by fuhr View Post
Personally, I thought Bourque was poor in all three games. Best D man by far and away was Coffey with Murphy coming in second. Crossman and Rochefort were either solid or brutal, no middle ground.
There was an awesome story in a THN mag several years ago where Mike Keenan gave a great account of the whole series.

One thing he mentioned was how he didnt know Coffey well and, for most of the tournament, didnt play him much. Prefering to rely on safer lesser-lights like Crossman.

At any rate, Keenan noted that Coffey accepted his role without complaint until the first game of the finals. When it became clear that these games were going to be played at an insane pace, Coffey waved Keenan over on the bench and simply said, 'you have to play me a lot now'. Keenan obliged and Coffey, as we know, was lights out.

Just a great story of a champion knowing when to turn it into high gear, and a coach recognizing when he had to turn his horses loose.

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09-13-2012, 11:24 AM
  #64
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They knew the Canadians would never agree to a Soviet ref
Heh, with the entire tournament held in Canada, on small rinks, with Canadian officiating... How would everybody feel if the last SC Finals all were held in New Jersey?

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09-13-2012, 11:36 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
There was an awesome story in a THN mag several years ago where Mike Keenan gave a great account of the whole series.

One thing he mentioned was how he didnt know Coffey well and, for most of the tournament, didnt play him much. Prefering to rely on safer lesser-lights like Crossman.

At any rate, Keenan noted that Coffey accepted his role without complaint until the first game of the finals. When it became clear that these games were going to be played at an insane pace, Coffey waved Keenan over on the bench and simply said, 'you have to play me a lot now'. Keenan obliged and Coffey, as we know, was lights out.

Just a great story of a champion knowing when to turn it into high gear, and a coach recognizing when he had to turn his horses loose.
Few seem to remember that the Oilers and Flyers players were coming off the first seven game Stanley Cup Final in years and the toll those playoffs took on them, especially Edmonton's star players. They played a ton for the Oilers and as I've previously mentioned, it was Lemieux and the four Oilers that were being given ridiculous minutes but still producing at a very high level.

It's the one thing I have always loved about Kennan as a coach. He could always recognize who his thoroughbred players were and used them appropriately.

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09-13-2012, 11:41 AM
  #66
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Heh, with the entire tournament held in Canada, on small rinks, with Canadian officiating... How would everybody feel if the last SC Finals all were held in New Jersey?
You mean like how the OLYMPICS works?!?

I wonder what the excuse will be if Russia loses in Sochi...

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09-13-2012, 12:19 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
There was an awesome story in a THN mag several years ago where Mike Keenan gave a great account of the whole series.

One thing he mentioned was how he didnt know Coffey well and, for most of the tournament, didnt play him much. Prefering to rely on safer lesser-lights like Crossman.

At any rate, Keenan noted that Coffey accepted his role without complaint until the first game of the finals. When it became clear that these games were going to be played at an insane pace, Coffey waved Keenan over on the bench and simply said, 'you have to play me a lot now'. Keenan obliged and Coffey, as we know, was lights out.

Just a great story of a champion knowing when to turn it into high gear, and a coach recognizing when he had to turn his horses loose.
great story.

Coffey was outstanding in this tournament, offensively especially but his ability to cover ground defensively was something special. I've yet to see a skater like Coffey, incredible speed, quiet, smooth, agile and could beat anyone when he turned it on.

I heard Orr was the same, in his prime, but maybe not as silky smooth and effortless as Coffey, I guess less elegant, but still effective.

Coffey really elevated his game internationally and in the playoffs. He had another gear, as many champions do.

I sometimes forget how good he was, since it became cool to knock him for his lack of commitment to defense, like Rod Langway. Fact is, nobody on defense could score like Coffey, except Orr.

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09-13-2012, 05:26 PM
  #68
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great story.

Coffey was outstanding in this tournament, offensively especially but his ability to cover ground defensively was something special. I've yet to see a skater like Coffey, incredible speed, quiet, smooth, agile and could beat anyone when he turned it on.

I heard Orr was the same, in his prime, but maybe not as silky smooth and effortless as Coffey, I guess less elegant, but still effective.

Coffey really elevated his game internationally and in the playoffs. He had another gear, as many champions do.

I sometimes forget how good he was, since it became cool to knock him for his lack of commitment to defense, like Rod Langway. Fact is, nobody on defense could score like Coffey, except Orr.
Very nice post. Couldn't agree more. If you were to bring Coffey in a time machine from 1987 to today with his old 1980s skates, he would still be the best skater in the league. Now just imagine if you gave prime Coffey today's modern skates?! That would be ridiculous.

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09-13-2012, 07:39 PM
  #69
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You mean like how the OLYMPICS works?!?
You must have missed Vancouver (which falls squarely under my description of the Canada Cup). And even Salt Lake City was not too different. Face it: Canada won very little outside of their country: 1972 and 2002. And only 1972 was outside of their continent.

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I wonder what the excuse will be if Russia loses in Sochi...
My prognosis is that they will lose because of the inferior defense (since the last great Russian defenseman was Markov). I don't think Malkin can score at the pace greater than Tyutin and Nikulin will be letting their forwards get away from them. I don't think Canada will win though.

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09-13-2012, 07:41 PM
  #70
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Fact is, nobody on defense could score like Coffey, except Orr.
Because it's not their friggin' job! Their friggin' job is to prevent the opposing team from scoring! If you are as much of a defensive liability as Coffey was (as all Red Wings fans can attest), screw you and your skating!

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Now just imagine if you gave prime Coffey today's modern skates?! That would be ridiculous.
His giveaway and caught-out-of-position rate would also be ridiculous and with modern era defensive systems, he would eventually be benched.

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Old
09-13-2012, 07:45 PM
  #71
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wow, was messier ever a dirty player

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09-13-2012, 07:52 PM
  #72
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Sure Mess was dirty, but he was dirty good.

You always take a guy like that on your team any day.

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09-13-2012, 07:52 PM
  #73
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Bleh, the Soviets would have loved to have had Coffey on their team.

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Because it's not their friggin' job! Their friggin' job is to prevent the opposing team from scoring! If you are as much of a defensive liability as Coffey was (as all Red Wings fans can attest), screw you and your skating!



His giveaway and caught-out-of-position rate would also be ridiculous and with modern era defensive systems, he would eventually be benched.

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09-13-2012, 08:02 PM
  #74
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People were earlier questioning Iron Mikes picks and love of grinder role players like Sutter and Tocchet.

This game three is a prime example of why he took them.

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09-13-2012, 08:06 PM
  #75
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Well sure, how many best on best tournaments have their been outside of their continent?

Are you talking about the world championships(and I use that term with the biggest grain of salt imaginable) and the past olympics where we always had to send kids to play your pros?

Please, don't insult our intelligence.

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You must have missed Vancouver (which falls squarely under my description of the Canada Cup). And even Salt Lake City was not too different. Face it: Canada won very little outside of their country: 1972 and 2002. And only 1972 was outside of their continent.



My prognosis is that they will lose because of the inferior defense (since the last great Russian defenseman was Markov). I don't think Malkin can score at the pace greater than Tyutin and Nikulin will be letting their forwards get away from them. I don't think Canada will win though.

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