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Old
09-10-2012, 12:11 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The reason is that Quincey has some experience, and because he has played on teams with very poor defense.

Kindl's defensive game isn't bad. It isn't good, either. IMO, Kind is a lot less likely to take minior penalties. His positioning and defensive instincts are better than Q's.
The issues with Kindl:
1) Inexperienced
2) Prone to careless errors
3) Doesn't play tough.
If his positioning and defensive instincts are better than Quinceys than why is it that NHL coaches have played Q so much? And why is it that when on the same team that was struggling, Kindl still couldnt get a job? In fact he played almost 8 less minutes per game.

Its not that Kindls defensive instincts are better its that Quincey is actually out there playing the game, and not taking sheltered minutes against bottom line players

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09-10-2012, 01:05 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
If his positioning and defensive instincts are better than Quinceys than why is it that NHL coaches have played Q so much? And why is it that when on the same team that was struggling, Kindl still couldnt get a job? In fact he played almost 8 less minutes per game.

Its not that Kindls defensive instincts are better its that Quincey is actually out there playing the game, and not taking sheltered minutes against bottom line players
Is there really a question? Kindl has only played for the Wings and Babcock. Quincey played for LA and Denver.

Consider this: Quincey was waived on October 13. The Wings chose to keep 7 defenseman over Quincey. He was claimed by LA and played his first game for LA on October 17. He played 22 minutes that game. Are we to suspect that Quincey went from at best a #8 defenseman to a #2 defenseman in a matter of 4 days? Or was this due to which team he was playing on?

What you're saying is Quincey earned his right to a top 4 role on LA, when in fact he was given it, and managed to keep it while competing with the likes of a 19 year old rookie Doughty, a 38 year old O'Donnell, Denis Gauthier who spent the entire prior year as a veteran AHLer, defense-only Matt Greene (although probably the most talented of the bunch), etc.

Youre comparing apples and oranges.

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09-10-2012, 01:24 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
If his positioning and defensive instincts are better than Quinceys than why is it that NHL coaches have played Q so much? And why is it that when on the same team that was struggling, Kindl still couldnt get a job? In fact he played almost 8 less minutes per game.

Its not that Kindls defensive instincts are better its that Quincey is actually out there playing the game, and not taking sheltered minutes against bottom line players
Obviously it's because Quincey went to teams where they play youngish defensemen.

Detroit freakin' waived Quincey. Kindl at least managed to get in some games.

The minute Kindl goes to a team that isn't stupid about development, he's going to get the opportunity to shine. And then we'll have the Quincey wars all over again.

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09-10-2012, 01:50 PM
  #29
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Kindl is not as good as Quincey. I don't think Kindl will eb anything special. He plays too timid, he lets other guys beat him to the puck to avoid getting hit.

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09-10-2012, 02:11 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by cnot19 View Post
Kindl is not as good as Quincey. I don't think Kindl will eb anything special. He plays too timid, he lets other guys beat him to the puck to avoid getting hit.
Give JK160 games of development and he'll be far better than KQ

I agree Kindl is too timid. But I also think he's got the brain and physical skills to play this game the Red Wing way.

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09-10-2012, 02:23 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Give JK160 games of development and he'll be far better than KQ

I agree Kindl is too timid. But I also think he's got the brain and physical skills to play this game the Red Wing way.
I hope you're right, we'll find out in the first half of the next season when he hits the 160 game mark.

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09-10-2012, 02:35 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Give JK160 games of development and he'll be far better than KQ

I agree Kindl is too timid. But I also think he's got the brain and physical skills to play this game the Red Wing way.
We'll see, I doubt it. Hesitation and Timidness will kill a defenseman in today's NHL.

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09-10-2012, 02:35 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I hope you're right, we'll find out in the first half of the next season when he hits the 160 game mark.
*Qualifier

Note that Quincey was getting 20Mins a night on day 1 as a rookie.

Not saying that Kindl needs that... but if he spends this season getting 12 minutes a night and is the first option for the press box, I don't see it happening in Detroit.

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09-10-2012, 03:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
Is there really a question? Kindl has only played for the Wings and Babcock. Quincey played for LA and Denver.

Consider this: Quincey was waived on October 13. The Wings chose to keep 7 defenseman over Quincey. He was claimed by LA and played his first game for LA on October 17. He played 22 minutes that game. Are we to suspect that Quincey went from at best a #8 defenseman to a #2 defenseman in a matter of 4 days? Or was this due to which team he was playing on?
8 defensemen. Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja, Lebda, Meech, and Chelios.

I still maintain that Lebderp was outplayed by Meech and Quincey even then, and should have been the guy waived.

Quote:
What you're saying is Quincey earned his right to a top 4 role on LA, when in fact he was given it, and managed to keep it while competing with the likes of a 19 year old rookie Doughty, a 38 year old O'Donnell, Denis Gauthier who spent the entire prior year as a veteran AHLer, defense-only Matt Greene (although probably the most talented of the bunch), etc.
He was actually the #4 in ESTOI and total TOI; he just got a crapload of PP time opposite Doughty. And that's because Jack Johnson missed half the year. He scored 38 points to lead the team's defensemen, but only 10 came at ES (27 on the PP). With Johnson healthy and Rob Scuderi added for 09-10, Quincey and Tom Priessing were irrelevant, so they were dumped off to the Avs. Quincey did well with Liles missing a quarter of the year, and then did almost nothing the next year when he himself played only a quarter of the year. He was again dumped for a surprisingly high return this past year, with the Avs now having better defensemen such as Erik Johnson, Shane O'Brien, Ryan O'Byrne, and Ryan Wilson. Quincey has spent his career as a band-aid defenseman. Nothing more. And that's what he is in Detroit. Assume White and Ericsson re-sign, and Quincey is solidly #6 (or lower) by the time his contract ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnot19 View Post
Kindl is not as good as Quincey. I don't think Kindl will eb anything special. He plays too timid, he lets other guys beat him to the puck to avoid getting hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Obviously it's because Quincey went to teams where they play youngish defensemen.
Not even that. He went to teams where they needed someone, ANYONE, who could actually play the puck better than Hal Gill and skate better than him. Kindl goes to those teams and probably gets the same role, maybe better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
Kindl looks like he will finally get a shot this year. I can't see anyone we sign up at this point to come in and be the #6 D right away.
Few guys out there are better than Kindl.

Quote:
As for the overripe thing, that's getting kind of old. If the kids ready then he's ready. The is no reason that Bertuzzi and Samuelsson shoulda been re-signed. Nyquist and Tatar (and Brunner) should all be with the big club this year instead only one will.

Bertuzzi did nothing last year to show me he shoulda been brought back on a 1 year deal let a lone a 2 year deal with a NTC.

Granted Samuelsson signed before we knew we weren't getting Parise and/or Suter, but still, Kenny didn't have to run out and sign him July 1. I'm sure he coulda waited a few days for their decision first and if Samuelsson went elsewhere in the meantime then who really cares anyway?

(I say that meaning it makes more sense to go with the kids after missing out on them, whereas as getting one or both woulda made us one of the cup favorites and I could at least see the argument for wanting to go the veteran route in that case.)
Th big problem with signing Samuelsson isn't even the kids; Samuelsson would have been available for another few days. But signing Sammy was basically Holland saying "we don't have room for you in our budget" to Hudler, because he was still budgeting for Parise. Had Holland not seriously lowballed Hudler, and then basically said "see ya later", we'd still have him even though we don't have Parise. And at that point, he could have still signed Sammy if he wanted to, probably for less than he did.

Bertuzzi/Datsyuk/Hudler
Nyquist/Zetterberg/Samuelsson
Cleary/Filppula/Franzen
Abdelkader/Helm/Tootoo

Yes please?

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09-10-2012, 03:27 PM
  #35
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I'm sure the Wings will sign another defenseman and Kindl will start the year as the #7 guy. They simply don't view him as anything more than that at this time.

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09-10-2012, 06:08 PM
  #36
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Kindl can carry the puck out of the zone which is important when teams take away that first pass. We all know his issues, it's confident. If he gets the time and the chance to make mistakes and not get bench for it he will get better. Anytime someone plays to not make a mistake they usually do.

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09-10-2012, 08:15 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by cnot19 View Post
We'll see, I doubt it. Hesitation and Timidness will kill a defenseman in today's NHL.
You have the DRW track record in your favor. They don't put people in positions they are not ready to handle. Hudler was protected, Emmerton was protected, and Kindl has been protected. They will never put Kindl in a position where he will look bad. I am willing to be critical of Ken Holland when warranted but this idea the fans know more than management and coaching when it comes to Kindl is just laughable. The Red Wings know a thing or two about player development.

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09-10-2012, 09:35 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Hudler was protected
No. Hudler was shoved down the lineup when his play warranted otherwise. He scored 57 points as a third liner. He established himself as one of the team's top players but never left the third line. The fact that you are effectively comparing Hudler to Emmerton shows how much you are letting your Hudler-hate into your post.

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09-11-2012, 11:16 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No. Hudler was shoved down the lineup when his play warranted otherwise. He scored 57 points as a third liner. He established himself as one of the team's top players but never left the third line. The fact that you are effectively comparing Hudler to Emmerton shows how much you are letting your Hudler-hate into your post.
And hes no longer on the team thank god, so keep it in your pants

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09-11-2012, 11:24 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
And hes no longer on the team thank god, so keep it in your pants
Hudler would fill out the top six on the current team. We don't know if Brunner is going to be a top six forward as he has never played on NA ice, Nyquist still needs a couple years, and Samuelson isn't a top six forward.

I couldn't wait until Hudler left town, now I'd welcome him back with open arms.

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09-11-2012, 12:38 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think the Wings hurt Kindl -- like they did with Ericsson, with their overripe BS (BS cover for keeping veterans forever).

In 08-09, Kindl had 6 goals and 33 points and was second to Stafford on the GR defense in points.
He needed to come up in 9-10.

Instead, he spent the next year doing not much in GR>
And why? So we could dress Meech and Lilja and Lebda? Three guys who had NO FUTURE with this organization?

That's poor asset management..

We saw the same with Quincey in 07. IMO, he showed he could play in this league, but we kept Chelios and Lebda over him. Why?

Ericsson too.
Ericsson looked really good in Grand Rapids and was an all star in 07-08. We send him to GR for most of 08-09.

And now, we're about to do the same thing with Nyquist, Tatar and perhaps even Joakim Andersson. We've probably already done it with Mursak.

Why? So we can resign Bertuzzi and bring Sammy back and sign Tootoo and take a chance on some Swiss guy?
This is so spot on, many of you should re-read.

While other teams have let their prospects and young talent develop w the big club, the Wings have done the opposite. Maybe this is why the Wings SOMETIMES have problems signing their Euro players to the AHL.

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09-11-2012, 01:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
Hudler would fill out the top six on the current team. We don't know if Brunner is going to be a top six forward as he has never played on NA ice, Nyquist still needs a couple years, and Samuelson isn't a top six forward.

I couldn't wait until Hudler left town, now I'd welcome him back with open arms.
Well Samuelsson is a bigger body whose put up around 50 points every year since leaving the wings. Hes an adequate replacement for Hudler assuming Nyquist cant fill his role. But I really dont think Nyquist will have a problem with it.

Brunner may even end up being a right handed Hudler. This team needs a shake up and bringing back a small, soft decent point producer wouldnt have helped that change or allowed young guys to step into roles

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09-11-2012, 02:07 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Well Samuelsson is a bigger body whose put up around 50 points every year since leaving the wings. Hes an adequate replacement for Hudler assuming Nyquist cant fill his role. But I really dont think Nyquist will have a problem with it.

Brunner may even end up being a right handed Hudler. This team needs a shake up and bringing back a small, soft decent point producer wouldnt have helped that change or allowed young guys to step into roles
Kind of backwards logic here; to say bringing back Hudler wouldn't have helped but bringing in someone, who isn't proven in the NHL, that has the potential to be like Hudler does help.

Here nor there, thread is about Kindl

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09-12-2012, 04:40 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
Kind of backwards logic here; to say bringing back Hudler wouldn't have helped but bringing in someone, who isn't proven in the NHL, that has the potential to be like Hudler does help.

Here nor there, thread is about Kindl
I love the Detroit Forum because the real information is ciphered. To read about management you go to a Kindl thread, to discuss Filppula you head to like page 5 of a free-agent defenseman thread. The other teams will never know our master plan because it's broken up and buried deep within these seemingly random threads. They should all actually be named "Hudler," because that's the end of every discussion anyways.

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09-12-2012, 08:10 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
I love the Detroit Forum because the real information is ciphered. To read about management you go to a Kindl thread, to discuss Filppula you head to like page 5 of a free-agent defenseman thread. The other teams will never know our master plan because it's broken up and buried deep within these seemingly random threads. They should all actually be named "Hudler," because that's the end of every discussion anyways.
Wait...isn't that Lilja?

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09-12-2012, 08:27 AM
  #46
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Kindl could still be a very good 2nd pairing defenceman IMO. He has all the tools, fantastic skater (which he underutilises), good size, can make good passes and seems to always get his shot through from the blueline. His biggest issue, as has been stated many times, is confidence. When he’s trusted he plays well, plays with assurance and knows his role, but as soon as he makes a mistake he knows he’ll be benched, often for long stretches, and then that undoes all progress he’s made. I just want to see him given a decent shot because if it ever happens he’ll shine. I still think he could quite easily be a 30+ point guy who produces well on the PP.

I mean he went from 4 points, -6 in a decent rookie season to 13 points and +7 in his second, from 55 games in rather limited minutes. Sadly I don't think he will ever reach his potential in Detroit, not until Babs is gone whenever that may be (hopefully not soon). For some reason we'd rather go with these worn down vets instead of giving Jakub the responsibility he needs to flourish. He just needs to be shown some faith. You stuff up, who cares, go out there the very next shift and make amends. Virtually his whole career it’s been a turnover and you’re benched. Extremely hard to develop under that mindset.

I’m still a big believe in what he can produce.

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09-12-2012, 10:44 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
Kindl could still be a very good 2nd pairing defenceman IMO. He has all the tools, fantastic skater (which he underutilises), good size, can make good passes and seems to always get his shot through from the blueline. His biggest issue, as has been stated many times, is confidence. When heís trusted he plays well, plays with assurance and knows his role, but as soon as he makes a mistake he knows heíll be benched, often for long stretches, and then that undoes all progress heís made. I just want to see him given a decent shot because if it ever happens heíll shine. I still think he could quite easily be a 30+ point guy who produces well on the PP.

I mean he went from 4 points, -6 in a decent rookie season to 13 points and +7 in his second, from 55 games in rather limited minutes. Sadly I don't think he will ever reach his potential in Detroit, not until Babs is gone whenever that may be (hopefully not soon). For some reason we'd rather go with these worn down vets instead of giving Jakub the responsibility he needs to flourish. He just needs to be shown some faith. You stuff up, who cares, go out there the very next shift and make amends. Virtually his whole career itís been a turnover and youíre benched. Extremely hard to develop under that mindset.

Iím still a big believe in what he can produce.
I agree, and I thought he was playing well up until the game he got benched against St. Louis. I even though he looked pretty good on the PP in the time he was getting before that game, definitely better than Hudler was on the point. Also I don't think he will ever develop properly on the Wings for the reasons you stated.

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09-12-2012, 11:06 AM
  #48
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I think Kindl is better than Q. When I watched them both, though I guess I only saw Q play very few games.

Kindl's instincts are definitely better. If you gave him the same amount of playing time as Q, those stupid rookie mistakes and inexperience causing butterflies would disappear. Remember how we all ragged on E? And yeah, he made some huuuuge rookie mistakes, positioning, dumb penalties, the works. But he got time anyway and he is much improved for it. To the point where our PK was crap without him.

Kindl needs some consistent playing time to develop a tempo. Please give it to him before it's too late.

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09-13-2012, 09:17 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Well Samuelsson is a bigger body whose put up around 50 points every year since leaving the wings. Hes an adequate replacement for Hudler assuming Nyquist cant fill his role. But I really dont think Nyquist will have a problem with it.

Brunner may even end up being a right handed Hudler. This team needs a shake up and bringing back a small, soft decent point producer wouldnt have helped that change or allowed young guys to step into roles
Samuelsson put up 50 twice with a huge number of those points being with the Sedins. He was on pace for 47 last year playing for Florida. EC point totals are always higher, and that's not much higher than the 40 he put up in Detroit. Sammy should put up around 40 again. Brunner is a total question mark. Hudler's a top-six offensive forward who was by far the team's best goal scorer at even strength.

And we can continue the Hudler discussion elsewhere. You know I post in just about every thread. If you like, bring up how Sammy and Nyquist replace him in the offseason thread.

But this one's about Kindl. And also how he's better than Quincey.

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09-13-2012, 03:31 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Samuelsson put up 50 twice with a huge number of those points being with the Sedins. He was on pace for 47 last year playing for Florida. EC point totals are always higher, and that's not much higher than the 40 he put up in Detroit. Sammy should put up around 40 again. Brunner is a total question mark. Hudler's a top-six offensive forward who was by far the team's best goal scorer at even strength.

And we can continue the Hudler discussion elsewhere. You know I post in just about every thread. If you like, bring up how Sammy and Nyquist replace him in the offseason thread.

But this one's about Kindl. And also how he's better than Quincey.
Well like I said, Samuellson has pretty much hit 50 every year since he left the wings. Two 50 point seasons and one on pace for 47. Hes only been gone 3 seasons so there you go.

And all you guys can keep saying Kindl is better than Kindl and keep telling yourself that, even though one has shown he can put up around 30 points a year and play over 20 mins a game and play in osst situations.

The other one has the wings looking to sign Coliacovo because they have no trust in his ability whatsoever because he cant be relied on yet

The coaches, management and most people with common sense agree that Quincey is better but there will always be a couple people who love the less effective guys (Hudler, Kindl) and its hilarious to see them argue about it when the proof is in the pudding

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