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2012-2013 Lockout Discussion Thread (Part II)

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Old
09-13-2012, 09:18 AM
  #326
HatTrick Swayze
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
But they would be a getting a pay raise regardless (both sides) -- the % doesn't have to change.

For instance, if the players had 57% of 4B = 2.28B to the players. If it rises to 6B the next year, it would be 57% of 6B = 3.42B to the players.

I guess I can understand owners wanting a slight pay cut, but how on earth can they justify the jump they are proposing? I just don't get it -- like I said, if I'm wrong, please correct me
From what I understand, they can justify it be pointing to the financial health of some teams. The argument is that suffering teams = a need to control labor costs for the sake of the league's financial health. Clearly, that argument is garbage. That problem is easily fixed with revenue sharing (like the NFL, NBA, and MLB have), and if the owners can't agree on that there is an inter-ownership problem not an owners/PA problem. (Not to mention that the owners CAUSED any labor cost problems that exist by exploiting contract loopholes and throwing the second contract to the wind - my #1 pet peeve, take a look at Skinner's deal).

The second way they can justify it is by the new percentages the NFL and NBA unions have taken in recent labor negotiations. There is no justifiable case for why the NHL should be higher. Yes, they did agree to that, but the market has changed. I'm not saying I personally agree with this but that is their argument.

At the end of the day, the thing I find frustrating is that the players appear to have learned very little since 2004-05. Fair or not, the owners will ALWAYS win. The PA may believe they are entitled to 57% but they will NEVER get it, no matter how long they fail to agree. And at the end of the day, a player losing a year off his career (for some guys this could now be 2 years off their career) will be way worse off than most owners will be with losing one season.

I understand taking a hard line, but I also understand living in the real world. It may not be fair but sometimes you have to cut your losses and look at the bigger picture of your career.

EDIT - This is a case of where these labor negotiations really differ from other careers. In teaching, manufacturing, etc. your career is 40-50 years. It may be worth it to sacrifice some time now for long term good. For athletes who only play 5, 10, 20 years tops every season matters in a big way.

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09-13-2012, 09:27 AM
  #327
Jaromir Jagr
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So...no meetings scheduled today or until Saturday?

Oh and as far as labor negotiations go...yes this is much different from NORMAL people with NORMAL careers. These are athletes who get paid a boatload. Sorry if I don't feel bad for them.

I once heard someone say "well he has to think about putting food on the table for his family". What? Excuse me? Give me a ****ing break. The men here make millions each year. Putting food on the table is of ZERO DIFFICULTY. There are families who live in SoCal and Long Island (where I am) who struggle to get by but do on $50k household incomes. That's struggling when you have to think about how to get dinner for your family at the end of the day.

I don't want to hear any of this nonsense - and oh, btw, in the beginning it was all "RahhH!! **** BETTMAN and the owners!", sorry, it's about equal now - because its in the players court and they're greedy just as much as the owners.

I'd love to see these players and owners live a year in the life of a normal fan (80% of their fanbases or more who live check to check), then we'd see how ****ing quick they make these labor negotiations.

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09-13-2012, 09:29 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
That doesn't mean i won't watch. I love hockey. But its asinine. It truly is.

"its a billion dollar busineszzz yous dont knows how itz werkzzzzz"
The only way it stops is if you stop giving them money. It's a multi billion dollar business that pays it's players millions and millions of dollars because fans are willing to go to games, buy merchandise, watch it on TV, pay for Game Center and Center Ice, buy concessions, etc.

I don't bother getting upset about that ****, and I'm not saying it's the fans fault or anything, it's just how it is with sports. They make a ton of money because we enable them to, and that's fine. I know people say "hell I'd play hockey for a fraction of that!" and then you get out there and realize how much work you have to put in, how hard it is on you, and hey look that other guy is getting paid more/the owners are keeping all of the money, what the hell why shouldn't I get paid more instead of "barely scraping by"?

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09-13-2012, 09:29 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
So...no meetings scheduled today or until Saturday?
As far as I know, nothing is scheduled at all.

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Old
09-13-2012, 09:31 AM
  #330
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They'll get something done. This is good movement.
Agreed. This is the first time since the season ended that I feel optimistic about having a season at all. Still don't think it will start in October but I think we'll see hockey.

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09-13-2012, 09:35 AM
  #331
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Well when you go from five days to four you are working 20% less and hence paid 20% less. This is sometimes referred to as furloughing. It's usually done in order to preserve jobs. If a business can't afford to pay five full time employees, instead of laying one off, they sometimes meet the same goal by cutting all five to four days. I'm not saying it doesn't suck, just that its not some evil, unusual or illegal practice, and when JUSTIFIED by financial need, a more fair way of doing things.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:04 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
So...no meetings scheduled today or until Saturday?

Oh and as far as labor negotiations go...yes this is much different from NORMAL people with NORMAL careers. These are athletes who get paid a boatload. Sorry if I don't feel bad for them.

I once heard someone say "well he has to think about putting food on the table for his family". What? Excuse me? Give me a ****ing break. The men here make millions each year. Putting food on the table is of ZERO DIFFICULTY. There are families who live in SoCal and Long Island (where I am) who struggle to get by but do on $50k household incomes. That's struggling when you have to think about how to get dinner for your family at the end of the day.

I don't want to hear any of this nonsense - and oh, btw, in the beginning it was all "RahhH!! **** BETTMAN and the owners!", sorry, it's about equal now - because its in the players court and they're greedy just as much as the owners.

I'd love to see these players and owners live a year in the life of a normal fan (80% of their fanbases or more who live check to check), then we'd see how ****ing quick they make these labor negotiations.
Labor negotiations for us regular folk can get far more ugly and be even more prolonged than this. I've lead bus drivers making $8/hr to walk out on strike, helped negotiate a contract over 2 years for grocery store employees and other things in between. The amount of money at stake doesn't necessarily correlate with the ferocity of the negotiations. It's not different at all.

Of course it's now in the player's court, and of course the owners have moved more than the players. If you look at a scale of 0-100, where 50 is the eventual deal that is reached, the NHLPA's initial proposal was around a 25, whereas the owners come in at a 90--not even close to what the actual deal will resemble. They've made more movement because their proposal started so ****ing far from where things will end up.

As someone who works to help workers that are actually struggling to put food on their tables each night, I do agree that no one should feel bad for these players. Even the guys making the minimum for a couple seasons make more than many Americans do in their lifetime. Still, it's the principle--the wealthy owners looking to gain even more wealth by seeking massive concessions from their employees. I don't like it, and I'll never support it.

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Last edited by nyr2k2: 09-13-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 10:26 AM
  #333
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Fehr loves those taxes. From: @RenLavoieRDS
Sent: Sep 13, 2012 10:08a

The NHLPA propose a 20% tax for every team to help revenue sharing. How it will technically works is different for a club receiving revenue.

sent via Twitter for BlackBerry®
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/RenLavoieRDS/stat...49034753376256

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:34 AM
  #334
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That's probably a nonstarter for the owners.

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:54 AM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
https://twitter.com/walsha/status/246026534442393600

The owners are at 49%. The players are 53.3%. There is no basis for compromise? The NBA players got 51.15% in 11-12. Splitting the difference is 51.15%. Same as the NBA. The players were at 54% in their last proposal. Management always wins labor battles. Even MLB has a salary cap in place at $189M starting in 2014.

Both sides proposed the players % of HRR decreasing as HRR increases. Same theory but different numbers. The numbers are not that far apart.

The NHL wants a 6 year deal. PA was at 3 years plus a player option. Now its 5 years. Is that 5 years or 4 years plus a players option? The NHL originally wanted a 5 year deal.

The NHL dropped their idea of redefining what makes up HRR.

Make a deal.

https://es.twitter.com/MichaelFarber...12871476117504

Make a deal.
I am as paranoid as the next guy, but its very obvious that i) the sides aren't really far apart, and ii) missed games are just extremely unecessary given the issues they are talking about.

Its very interesting, because the propagande now is as tough as it has ever been. I saw in a Swedish paper that some agent had speculated on that 2 seasons could be missed. There is alot of talk about the sides being "far apart" or whatever.

From both sides.

There is really no idea in trying to spread that propagande, unless you want someone to move from a position. IE, if Fehr and Bettman sits there and fears that the negotiations will be long and painful, there is really not much use for them to actually let the media know that. In negotiations like this, its almost the opposite. It won't help.

But the fact that both sides now are activly painting up a very bleak picture, while they in fact has made great progress, more than anything else, from my pov, indicates that both sides are basically realizing what the final agreement will be and are just trying to get their members/clubs to give up what they have to give up sooner or later to reach just that agreement.

For the players to take something at or a little under 52% while also giving up in other areas. For the clubs to accept that they won't slap the PA around this time and make every org profitable from day 1. Maybe give up a little more revenue sharing etc.

There are reasons to be fairly positive.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:09 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
At the end of the day, the thing I find frustrating is that the players appear to have learned very little since 2004-05. Fair or not, the owners will ALWAYS win. The PA may believe they are entitled to 57% but they will NEVER get it, no matter how long they fail to agree. And at the end of the day, a player losing a year off his career (for some guys this could now be 2 years off their career) will be way worse off than most owners will be with losing one season.
It's really too early to say **** like this. It'd be foolish of the players to just fold and take whatever the owners offer. They've gotten the owners to come off of redefining HRR and raise the percentage of revenue the players get by not giving in, and they appear to have come down in their asking as well.

It's a back and forth process for the most part and I think it's too early to tell how it will end up for sure. The players plan could be to draw it out as long as they can without sacrificing too much of the season and try to win as many concessions as they can, even if it looks like they "lose" the deal in the end. But it is certain that they'd get a ****** deal if they just gave in as quickly as possible in order to have training camp open on time at all costs

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:21 AM
  #337
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I have a serious disdain for Paul Bissonnette.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:30 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
I have a serious disdain for Paul Bissonnette.
Even though what he said is true, it's not something you want to say to the fans right now. Poor choice of timing for his comments.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:39 AM
  #339
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A bunch of cry babies is what they all are.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:41 AM
  #340
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What he said isn't true.

If I was asked to take a pay cut at my job I'd have two choices

1) Accept
2) Decline, be fired, and be forced to find another job

I'd be unable to take option 2.

The general public doesn't have the ability to sit on their hands and wait for a better deal because they don't have the amount of money the players have.

That all goes without saying, but it also kills that assclown BizNasty's points

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09-13-2012, 11:53 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by nevesis View Post
I have a serious disdain for Paul Bissonnette.
I hate how he retweets the guy saying "life after hockey isn't free" as if every hockey player deserves not only to make a million dollars or more a year to play a game, but then, after they're done, they should never, ever have to work a "normal" job like everyone else. Life without NHL money at any point isn't free either and that's the life the rest of us live. God forbid a player who somehow blew through tens of millions of dollars without investing in anything with a return has to live like the rest of us for a few years after being a millionaire playboy all throughout their 20s and 30s. I have absolutely zero sympathy for that line of thinking.

Having said that, I still think it's disgusting that the owners are going to bone themselves, their employees and their fans over such trivial matters. This isn't cap vs. no cap or some other huge, structural issue - it seems to be over a small range of percentage points. Let the season start and argue about your percentages as it goes on. LA just won a cup. NYR are on the rise not only as a team, but as a brand - I was talking Rangers with people who never paid attention to hockey in their lives last year. Crosby is back and healthy, ready to play. The league has so much momentum right now. This is horrible, horrible time to lose a season.

Never thought I'd say this either but Dolan is doing the right thing from what I've read, assuming I'm not misunderstanding. If you have the money, do what you have to do to play the season.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:54 AM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
Even though what he said is true, it's not something you want to say to the fans right now. Poor choice of timing for his comments.
what were his comments?

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:57 AM
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
What he said isn't true.

If I was asked to take a pay cut at my job I'd have two choices

1) Accept
2) Decline, be fired, and be forced to find another job

I'd be unable to take option 2.

The general public doesn't have the ability to sit on their hands and wait for a better deal because they don't have the amount of money the players have.

That all goes without saying, but it also kills that assclown BizNasty's points
Some of us do. Those of us that are union members have a third option, which is to enter a work stoppage in an attempt to collectively bargain for something better (what the players may be forced to do). And any union worth its salt has some type of war chest built up to ensure members are still receiving some steady income during a work stoppage.

Unfortunately, most Americans aren't fortunate enough to have the protection of a labor union. If you're one of those people, I can certainly understand how BizNasty's point doesn't make any sense.

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09-13-2012, 12:00 PM
  #344
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what were his comments?
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...7680--nhl.html

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:02 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by NYRangers88 View Post
Even though what he said is true, it's not something you want to say to the fans right now. Poor choice of timing for his comments.
Obviously life after hockey isn't free. Life after anything isn't free. A hockey career has a lot shorter shelf-lives than most careers, but they get paid a lot more too. If Bisnasty is so worried about his financial security after hockey, maybe cut back to 8-10 trips to Vegas per year.

I respect the process, but both sides playing to the fans like this got old a long time ago. Yes, the other side is greedy and you are not, we get it.

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:05 PM
  #346
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Something that gets over-looked in all of this is that the owners may have not gotten all that they wanted last time. Although they clearly won on the last CBA.

This is all a process. The owners want salaries lower and for the players to get less of the pie. Whatever happens this time around, they most certainly will ask for more concesssions by the players next time as well.

When is it enough?

I guess the answer to that is "When the NHL as a whole is healthy"

At that point if the owners ask for even more concessions, they may lose the battle in the court of public opinion. That doesn't mean they won't get what they want in the end.

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09-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #347
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I just want hockey.

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09-13-2012, 12:10 PM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
It's really too early to say **** like this. It'd be foolish of the players to just fold and take whatever the owners offer. They've gotten the owners to come off of redefining HRR and raise the percentage of revenue the players get by not giving in, and they appear to have come down in their asking as well.

It's a back and forth process for the most part and I think it's too early to tell how it will end up for sure. The players plan could be to draw it out as long as they can without sacrificing too much of the season and try to win as many concessions as they can, even if it looks like they "lose" the deal in the end. But it is certain that they'd get a ****** deal if they just gave in as quickly as possible in order to have training camp open on time at all costs
I should have clarified better. I 100% agree that the players can't come right out and "fold" by agreeing to a deal in the 50-53% range.

But if they ultimately reject one and miss half a year to a full year, I stand by my comments. In general I am more so reacting to tweets like this:

Quote:
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL
Text from player pal: "NHL offer is a f***ing joke. Sets PA back 20 years. I appreciate what I got, but wake the ******* up buddy."
Quote:
Paul Bissonnette ‏@BizNasty2point0 Question to the fans. If a company you worked for was making money and they asked you to take a 24% pay cut would you do it?
I understand the need to maintain your posture for negotiating. But if the players miss significant time holding out hope that they will get well above 50% long term, I would criticize them for failing to realize how futile that effort is.

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09-13-2012, 12:16 PM
  #349
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God, Biz is such a moron.

Someone needs to tweet him and then spin it as...what company has it's employees asking for more than the owners? I bet he would say it's not that same. Well, than you're argument as taking a paycut in a multi billion dollar industry isn't the same than the average worker taking a pay cut.

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09-13-2012, 12:25 PM
  #350
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Paul Bissonnette should shut up. He played in 31 games, averaged 6 minutes a game. He "worked" 186 minutes last year(3.1 hours) and got paid $737,500. Boo-****ing-hoo.

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