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Old
05-02-2006, 01:38 PM
  #51
Enoch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
I think we'd be foolish to trade Parent. Klein, Suter, and Hamhuis play similar styles and have similar size, but Parent stands out. He's bigger, stronger, faster, and more able to stop some of the larger, athletic players in this league.

I've said it in other threads, but from what I've seen and read, he seems like he is purpose built for the new NHL in a defensive defenseman's role. He's got the size to handle the bigger forwards; the speed to handle the fastest forwards; the agility to handle the shifty forwards, and the smarts and positional game to keep from taking stupid penalties. He doesn't have the offensive upside that the rest of our Dman have, but that's not really as important for us.

This team badly needed a 24 year old Ryan Parent on the ice to contain Marleau. Suter is more redundant and is probably more valuable to another team than Parent due to his overall talent. I think we can use that to our advantage when trying to swing a deal for a center.
I don't disagree Smokey. The games I have seen him in I was quite impressed...He is so fast and so strong. To be honest, I would hate to lose any of our defensemen. I would love to find a way to keep them all, but I just do not think we can. Klein is likely the one to move, but can we get the value that he deserves?

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05-02-2006, 01:58 PM
  #52
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I agree with Smokey in that Ryan Suter might be our biggest tradeable asset. I think the guy is going to be a great defenseman, but we have a lot of guys in that mold. Maybe trade him for a younger top line center with just as much potential. Let's put it on the trade board and see what other fans think.

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05-02-2006, 05:52 PM
  #53
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a few final thoughts about the season..

for all teams except one, the season always closes with dissappointment. always will. during the period immediately following defeat team's fans go thru the same period of depression. every team's fans react pretty much the exact same way. the same questions/causes arise on every team's forums. 1) fire the coach, because he's not the one that can get us to the next level. 2)question the goaltending, because it's the most important position on the ice. 3)trade half the team, because the way we're building obviously isn't working.

in the immediate shadow of defeat, things look far worse than they ever actually are. as time goes on, and we see other teams fail miserably in the next couple of rounds, reality starts to refocus to fans who normally have the ability to dissect real strengths and weaknesses of the team, and down deep many usually recognize the fact they have somewhat overreacted to the series loss.

this is a good team we have. this team won 49 games and put up 106 points this year. this was not an accident. probably the worse thing that happened is that the team overachieved,especially early, and in doing so raised many's expectations beyond the true ability of this team to succeed in the end. don't fool yourself, we are not an elite team, not yet. we still have two or three needs that have to be addressed to become an elite team. one of the things we needed we got a dose of this year. experience. we simply don't have enough playoff, stretch run, big game experience throughout the roster. years like this year, and 03-04 are the pills young rosters have to swallow to get better. a small thing that further prepares this team to succeed in future years.

several will have you believe we need to retool completely and basically blow up the roster, go an entirely different direction, adopt radically different tactics and stategies to ever have a chance to succeed. i don't think this one bit. i think the strategy of being a small quick team on the offensive end is the right way for this team to go. we cann't become a big physical offensive team without basically starting entirely over, and surely to god no one wants to go thru a new 5 year rebuilding process to start down that road. sure we need a couple of larger centermen who can skate, score points, and help defend against big opposing centermen. but the wing corps we are building is absolute top notch. defensively we decided we needed quick, two way defensivemen who could handle the puck and skate. we now know we need two-three stronger stay at home d-men to compliment those two way guys and help hold down zone time for the enemy.

we just had a season where we had by far the best pp we've ever had. we scored far more pp goals than ever before, our pp % was far better than it ever has been before. and we know it should be even better. in fact our pp should be a dominating pp with the pp 'specialists' we have at four positions (kariya, sullivan, timonen, zidlicky). find one centerman with size,ability to handle the puck, and a scoring touch, add him to these 4, and we could conceivably become the best pp in the league.

the stanley cup playoffs are a crapshoot. anyone that really knows sports knows this. take the exact same 16 seedings we had to start this playoff season, play 10 playoff series from start to finish and you'd have at least 7 or 8 different winners. too many little intangibles. anytime you have to win 4 rounds of games, things simply happen. some teams matchup well against other teams. some teams have key injuries at just the wrong time. the puck has edges and takes strange bounces that determine many games. some teams are red hot at just the right time. there are simply so many variables, that luck plays a part.

not taking anything away from the sharks. with sullivan, walker, legwand, zidlicky not at full speed and with no vokoun we are simply not as good a team as the sharks are. it was bad luck on our part to draw the sharks the first round. of all the 8 teams in the west they were playing the best hockey coming into the playoffs. arguably they were the one team that we would have the roughest time matching up to up front because of their strength/speed. arguably only them and detroit had good enough powerplay personnel to really take advantage of our penalty kill. not having vokoun and sullivan full speed doomed us to be honest. the two people most of us had said all along we couldn't afford to be without. add in the loss of zidlicky and it was more than we could bear. of course, if we had beaten the sharks we were simply prolonging the inevitable. we were going to lose with the health issues we had coming into the playoffs, no matter how much we hoped it wouldn't happen and that dream that some had that "somehow this is our year".

the team has many, many tough choices to make this offseason. of course every team always does.

1)will vokoun ever play again?.. top question that most refuse to even think about. it's always possible that he cann't come off blood thinners. it's always possible this reoccurs when he tries to come back (remember, they have no clue what caused it to begin with). what if it's simply hereditary? what if it's chronic?. this is the new first and foremost question that will drive our actions this off season. do we trade for a veteran goalie? do we resign mason as insurance?...
2)where do we go with our defensive corps?.. we know now we have to have a couple of stronger d-men to compliment our two way guys. free agency? witt? markov? eaton? weber? trade?
3)what do we do to improve our center position? trade? free agent? perrault or sillinger re-signed? johnson? legwand? trade from our overabundance of wingers and two way defnesivemen to fill this need?... lots to decide here of course
4)what do we do with this plethora of wingers? depth? trade bait? how do we fit in upshall? how do we make a spot for radulov? is he ready next year? where does walker fit in? will walker be healthy and more like the old walker? how do we grow hartnell's role and game? where does hall fit? is erat expendable or is he critical to future success?

should be an enjoyable off season trying to see how we answer all these questions. but remember, the questions we have are much better questions to have than about 20 other teams. never forget this franchise is continuing to improve year after year and the future is oh so bright. things will be even better.

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05-02-2006, 07:40 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
So no one that's not coached/played can have an opinion?

Does it matter what level. Hipcheck and I have both played and coached.

Have you ever played?
Nope ait bashing either. Rest my case.

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05-02-2006, 09:55 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman
I agree with Smokey in that Ryan Suter might be our biggest tradeable asset. I think the guy is going to be a great defenseman, but we have a lot of guys in that mold. Maybe trade him for a younger top line center with just as much potential. Let's put it on the trade board and see what other fans think.
When you have young stud D men you do not trade them. They cost an awful lot more than a forward in free agency and you will not find many young ones in that pile. Perhaps you can shuffle out one of the older guys if you really need to make room but I would not trade Suter under most any circumstances.

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05-02-2006, 10:08 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisshockeyAcademy
When you have young stud D men you do not trade them. They cost an awful lot more than a forward in free agency and you will not find many young ones in that pile. Perhaps you can shuffle out one of the older guys if you really need to make room but I would not trade Suter under most any circumstances.

it's not about shuffling, and no one's talking about trading Suter for Todd Marchant. We're talking about dealing from an abundance of similar d-men...though outside Weber, none may be as good as Suter...and bringing in an area we're weak in. If the Flyers were interested in dealing a promising young center...Richards, Carter, whomever...and wanted Suter in return, we'd have to consider it, because it would make our young team instantly better.

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05-03-2006, 07:58 AM
  #57
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Pred303 - well done and well said. thanks for your comments all season long. I love to read your stuff.

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05-03-2006, 08:31 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
it's not about shuffling, and no one's talking about trading Suter for Todd Marchant. We're talking about dealing from an abundance of similar d-men...though outside Weber, none may be as good as Suter...and bringing in an area we're weak in. If the Flyers were interested in dealing a promising young center...Richards, Carter, whomever...and wanted Suter in return, we'd have to consider it, because it would make our young team instantly better.
For Carter I would think about it. I still think you can draft or sign those types of players more easily than stud D. I do think that Zidlicky or Timonen can net a nice return. I think Eaton is useful as a PK man. Markov may end up elsewhere, but I am not the GM so it is hard to say. I keep Suter but maybe he lets him go.

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05-04-2006, 10:12 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
several will have you believe we need to retool completely and basically blow up the roster, go an entirely different direction, adopt radically different tactics and stategies to ever have a chance to succeed. i don't think this one bit. i think the strategy of being a small quick team on the offensive end is the right way for this team to go. we cann't become a big physical offensive team without basically starting entirely over, and surely to god no one wants to go thru a new 5 year rebuilding process to start down that road. sure we need a couple of larger centermen who can skate, score points, and help defend against big opposing centermen. but the wing corps we are building is absolute top notch. defensively we decided we needed quick, two way defensivemen who could handle the puck and skate. we now know we need two-three stronger stay at home d-men to compliment those two way guys and help hold down zone time for the enemy.
Maybe I missed the posts you are referring to, but I don't understand where you are coming from here. You mentioned blowing up the roster. Didn't read anything along those lines from the posts in this thread. You mentioned go in a different direction. Once again, I didn't see any real mention of this. The only posts that I can think of that would spark this level of response involved posters saying the system needed adjustment. Some, such as myself, feel a clean slate evaluation of our system is needed. Others feel a bit of tweeking needs to be done. I'll assume that this is an affront to my post about revamping the system. I'll delve a little deeper into my point, and why I feel it is the BEST way to go and that there is little argument against that course.

Revamping in the way I mentioned does not necessarily entail major changes. All I'm asking for is a full-scale evaluation of what systems work best in the NHL and then selecting the system that fits the best with our roster and that has shown to be very successful in the 'new' NHL. I wouldn't be surprised if they came to Buffalo as a source of inspiration. They are a small, speedy, counterattack team, just like the Preds. But what we lack is what makes them successful - aggression. They are not content, as we are, to sit back and play the other team's game in hopes that we can feed off their mistakes. They take the game to the other team and force mistakes, something the Preds did very infrequently against quality competition. I would be ecstatic if they came to the conclusion that we needed to maintain our current system and infuse more aggression. Why? Because if they use this process for determining a system, they are more likely to come across the right system than if they just tweak the current system and hope that's the best move they can make. Tweaking may turn out to be the way to go, but I want that realization to occur objectively.

You act as if I want us to start stockpiling large forwards, play a physical game, and completely alter our identity. Our roster is not suited to that, and I have no desire to see large scale roster changes. My goal in this would not be to change the roster. It would be to find the best system for this roster, and then complementing that system and our current roster with additions over the summer. I refuse to believe that we are currently employing the best system we possibly can. We may have the best base system for this roster, but it needs tweaking to be successful.

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05-04-2006, 11:15 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Maybe I missed the posts you are referring to, but I don't understand where you are coming from here. You mentioned blowing up the roster. Didn't read anything along those lines from the posts in this thread. You mentioned go in a different direction. Once again, I didn't see any real mention of this. The only posts that I can think of that would spark this level of response involved posters saying the system needed adjustment. Some, such as myself, feel a clean slate evaluation of our system is needed. Others feel a bit of tweeking needs to be done. I'll assume that this is an affront to my post about revamping the system. I'll delve a little deeper into my point, and why I feel it is the BEST way to go and that there is little argument against that course.

Revamping in the way I mentioned does not necessarily entail major changes. All I'm asking for is a full-scale evaluation of what systems work best in the NHL and then selecting the system that fits the best with our roster and that has shown to be very successful in the 'new' NHL. I wouldn't be surprised if they came to Buffalo as a source of inspiration. They are a small, speedy, counterattack team, just like the Preds. But what we lack is what makes them successful - aggression. They are not content, as we are, to sit back and play the other team's game in hopes that we can feed off their mistakes. They take the game to the other team and force mistakes, something the Preds did very infrequently against quality competition. I would be ecstatic if they came to the conclusion that we needed to maintain our current system and infuse more aggression. Why? Because if they use this process for determining a system, they are more likely to come across the right system than if they just tweak the current system and hope that's the best move they can make. Tweaking may turn out to be the way to go, but I want that realization to occur objectively.

You act as if I want us to start stockpiling large forwards, play a physical game, and completely alter our identity. Our roster is not suited to that, and I have no desire to see large scale roster changes. My goal in this would not be to change the roster. It would be to find the best system for this roster, and then complementing that system and our current roster with additions over the summer. I refuse to believe that we are currently employing the best system we possibly can. We may have the best base system for this roster, but it needs tweaking to be successful.
Smokey....I bellieve this is a post that he put on the other board, then later, bascially cut and pasted it over here, saving the work of typing it all over again as he doesn't have access to HF at work.....I may be wrong.....but I don't think he was replying to your idea of a re-eval of what systems work in the new NHL and adapting our systems to it. I agree, Buffalo is a great model for us, for the reasons you outline. However, we have to play with the aggression, but stay out of the box. It looks like staying out of the box will be priority #1 next season, according to Poile:

Penalties were a problem all season and helped provided the death knell in the playoffs against the San Jose Sharks. Poile is confident that area of the game will show vast improvement.

It has to be a priority, Poile said. I am confident it can change with the people we have here. Im not trying to say it wasnt a priority, but Im admitting that we didnt get it done. It is something we can control. We have to have a different mindset. I can almost guarantee you we will not be the third most penalized team in the league next season.


http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/in...&news_id=49593

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05-04-2006, 11:56 AM
  #61
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OK, that makes perfect sense and while I'll leave my post up there untouched because I think it illustrates my point of a system evaluation, I'm retracting anything directed at 303.

I could certainly see that response being a pretty valid one to those on the other boards.

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05-04-2006, 12:22 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
OK, that makes perfect sense and while I'll leave my post up there untouched because I think it illustrates my point of a system evaluation, I'm retracting anything directed at 303.

I could certainly see that response being a pretty valid one to those on the other boards.
To go along with your first point, what clearly was missing from our team was agressive play. We all said all year long that we looked like THE most passive team in the NHL. The sucessful speedy teams combine agression with smart system play - See Edmonton, Anaheim to a degree, and obviously Buffalo. Trotz needs to learn how to attack. Watching our games this year, we were truly at our best and playing the best hockey when we were playing balls to the wall offense.....we were giving up probably about 5 more shots a game BUT those shots were not nearly as deadly as the shots they were getting in the slower-paced, passive game. I think some of our 40 shots against games were misnomers, and sometimes a coach has to see what is working and go with it even if it looks bad on paper. With a bigger and more mature defense corps next year, I expect this style of play will be even more effective, and we will see a slight decrease in shots to boot.

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05-04-2006, 05:20 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
OK, that makes perfect sense and while I'll leave my post up there untouched because I think it illustrates my point of a system evaluation, I'm retracting anything directed at 303.

I could certainly see that response being a pretty valid one to those on the other boards.
as you guessed, none of that was in reference to any of your comments, but instead to wild 'need to do this' suggestions on the other board..

i do tend to think we 'tweak' more than change the system we use with our small forwards however... but i agree, i too think we need a more aggresive forechecking system for an entire year (which i think we would have had with a healthy legwand and walker the entire season).

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05-04-2006, 06:10 PM
  #64
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I was thinking you guys were going to go deep this year, you just hit a very hot Sharks team.

If you have less injuries in game 1, I think this series ends quite differently.

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