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2012-2013 Lockout Discussion Thread (Part II)

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:30 PM
  #351
DutchShamrock
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If you just spin the hamster wheel every day, you don't have leverage. If you have a valuable skillset, you get a better cut. With contractors, the financier puts up all the money, the skill labor does the work, 50/50 split. That's just for a guy who knows how to do work right the first time.

A hockey player that puts bodies in the seats, who generates jersey sales... 50/50 isn't outrageous. These comparisons to every day people, it's just silly.

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09-13-2012, 12:40 PM
  #352
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As someone who was underemployed for two years, Mr Bissonette, if I had the opportunity to keep my job by taking a 24% pay, you bet your ass I would. Dumb tweet, considering the fact that 23 million people are unemployed in this country, and we just had a record number of unemployment claims. Back to the real world...


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Old
09-13-2012, 12:52 PM
  #353
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I sense that there will be some serious last minute negotiating until deadline on Saturday after seeing the NHLPA presser. If that leads somewhere - God only knows... Players have to give more to get a deal done imo. Owners as well. Negotiate now. It is about numbers and CA$H. It can get done!

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Old
09-13-2012, 12:55 PM
  #354
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Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Anyone assuming NHL season will start in Nov or Dec is under-estimating Don Fehr's resolve and the hold he has on the players.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:28 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Chris Botta ‏@ChrisBottaNHL

Anyone assuming NHL season will start in Nov or Dec is under-estimating Don Fehr's resolve and the hold he has on the players.
"the hold he has on the players" what the hell crap is this.

They hired him specifically because he's a tough labor negotiator, he doesn't have a "hold" on them, he's doing what they hired him to do.

Stupid **** talk like this is partly what makes labor negotiations terrible

On the other hand, the sides aren't too far apart now, if they'd both just bend a little more. Start at 52, end up at 50, fine. There's a deal there to be had

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:29 PM
  #356
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The players will need to miss more than a year to show resolve. Lets see how much resolve they have when the paycheck doesn't arrive on October 15 and they don't get a check every two weeks. Bill Guerin said the owners would have waited us out. Many of the players in the NHL weren't around in 2004-05. They are going to get crushed by Bettman. I hate when the players start discussing being disrespected and bullied by the owners. Last time they missed an entire season and ended up taking the cap they wanted no part of in addition to losing 24% in a rollback. If they had taken the cap in the summer of 2004,there would have been no 24% rollback which the players offered in the fall of 2004 to not accept a cap. Management wins the sports labor wars and most labor wars.

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"I remember during the last lockout, we were pounding our fist on the table saying that we won't accept a [salary] cap under any circumstances," said one former Flyer before walking into the meetings on Wednesday. "By February, we took the cap. If we were going to cave, why didn't we just do it from the start so we could actually get paid?

"A lot of players have a lot of different views. For me, I have 1, maybe 2 years left. By voting to play hardball, I could effectively be ending my career. Then again, should we just lie down and take it from the owners? It will be interesting to see how everyone else feels."
Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz26NNFGSFo

Says it all.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:36 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
"the hold he has on the players" what the hell crap is this.

They hired him specifically because he's a tough labor negotiator, he doesn't have a "hold" on them, he's doing what they hired him to do.
He means he has them in line. There's no Jeremy Roenick or Tie Domi like situation like the last time where they're in-fighting with Goodenow and there's no leader like Trevor Linden that the NHL goes directly to. They have to go through Fehr, Fehr assuming he's going after something fair for everyone will hopefully have them in agreement should a lockout be needed to achieve what is fair.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:44 PM
  #358
Brian Boyle
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The players will need to miss more than a year to show resolve. Lets see how much resolve they have when the paycheck doesn't arrive on October 15 and they don't get a check every two weeks. Bill Guerin said the owners would have waited us out. Many of the players in the NHL weren't around in 2004-05. They are going to get crushed by Bettman. I hate when the players start discussing being disrespected and bullied by the owners. Last time they missed an entire season and ended up taking the cap they wanted no part of in addition to losing 24% in a rollback. If they had taken the cap in the summer of 2004,there would have been no 24% rollback which the players offered in the fall of 2004 to not accept a cap. Management wins the sports labor wars and most labor wars.



Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz26NNFGSFo

Says it all.
I can't imagine the owners being as resolved as last time. Last time they took a hard stance because the league wasn't healthy and they needed to fix it. This time they're just arguing about how to divide the pie.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:49 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The players will need to miss more than a year to show resolve. Lets see how much resolve they have when the paycheck doesn't arrive on October 15 and they don't get a check every two weeks. Bill Guerin said the owners would have waited us out. Many of the players in the NHL weren't around in 2004-05. They are going to get crushed by Bettman. I hate when the players start discussing being disrespected and bullied by the owners. Last time they missed an entire season and ended up taking the cap they wanted no part of in addition to losing 24% in a rollback. If they had taken the cap in the summer of 2004,there would have been no 24% rollback which the players offered in the fall of 2004 to not accept a cap. Management wins the sports labor wars and most labor wars.



Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz26NNFGSFo

Says it all.
This is so, so true. They should take the best deal they can get right before a lockout.

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:50 PM
  #360
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The issue is the top NHL revenue teams are responsible for the $3.3B of the NHL business. The other 15-20 teams aren't producing much revenue. The solution is more revenue sharing but the top teams don't want to share more revenue.

Quote:
Among PA's beliefs: 1. That NHL revenues are about to explode, 2-4 years; 2. True rev sharing, if embraced, would stop lockout cycle.
https://twitter.com/GlobeKPD/status/246306572391821312

Revenues aren't going to explode if there is a long lockout. Would the players like 50% of exploding revenues or nothing?

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Old
09-13-2012, 01:56 PM
  #361
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It's a writer reaching for a story. Don't underestimate the understanding of the players. They see the climate, they see the other sports' recent cbas. They get that teams do struggle.

As much as the players are underestimated, they unity of the owners is overblown. Just because they have enough sense to not contradict each other publicly doesn't mean the majority want to blow up a season.

They'll meet in the middle because they have some sense.

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Old
09-13-2012, 02:18 PM
  #362
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What I don't understand is why the players initially wanted a three year CBA and still want a shorter term than the NHL? Don't they notice that they usually lose in the negotiations? They clearly lost last time, and by all accounts it looks like they'll lose a few percentage points this time around. I doubt they'll get that back next time around, so a longer CBA seems to be the better choice after all.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:14 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
What I don't understand is why the players initially wanted a three year CBA and still want a shorter term than the NHL? Don't they notice that they usually lose in the negotiations? They clearly lost last time, and by all accounts it looks like they'll lose a few percentage points this time around. I doubt they'll get that back next time around, so a longer CBA seems to be the better choice after all.
Negotiating. If the league wants more years, give up something. Olympics? Percentage points? From the last lockout, the players got 56%, younger ufa age, etc. Now they are losing it for the pleasure of a smaller cap. I'd bargain everything because you know are losing more next time.

Basically the players want more than 3 or 4 years, but they'll get something if they can.

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Old
09-13-2012, 05:55 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I can't imagine the owners being as resolved as last time. Last time they took a hard stance because the league wasn't healthy and they needed to fix it. This time they're just arguing about how to divide the pie.
Ive thought this the entire time. Then again, Bettman just got a unanimous vote for a lockout from the owners.

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Old
09-13-2012, 06:18 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Ive thought this the entire time. Then again, Bettman just got a unanimous vote for a lockout from the owners.
My guess is that the ownership negotiated with each other a long time ago in order to present a united front to the players.

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Old
09-13-2012, 06:38 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
My guess is that the ownership negotiated with each other a long time ago in order to present a united front to the players.
Negotiated what? This whole thing has been about the lower revenue-generating teams in the league. What do those teams possibly have to offer to the top 10 money generating teams in the league?

They all have a common rallying point that 57% of the revenue share is too high for the players. And its starting to become clear they have the leverage here. I think if the players dont settle soon, they'll get hurt badly, just like last time.

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09-13-2012, 07:54 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Negotiated what? This whole thing has been about the lower revenue-generating teams in the league. What do those teams possibly have to offer to the top 10 money generating teams in the league?

They all have a common rallying point that 57% of the revenue share is too high for the players. And its starting to become clear they have the leverage here. I think if the players dont settle soon, they'll get hurt badly, just like last time.
Which is why the players should throw 52% (or 53%) and dropping .5% every year until 50%... Then locked in at 50% for 2-4 years onto the table. The owners will have to take it seriously... It would put the players out in front in the eyes of the fans and the owners would be the villains if there is a lockout for even just one day.

If they hold out until after a lockout the owners may throw a season away to get them under 50%

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Old
09-13-2012, 08:33 PM
  #368
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Do most of you sense a long lockout or just couple of months?


Last edited by bmw2004: 09-13-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 08:33 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Negotiated what? This whole thing has been about the lower revenue-generating teams in the league. What do those teams possibly have to offer to the top 10 money generating teams in the league?
"This whole thing" you mention refers specifically to the negotiation between the PA and the league, which is not at all what I'm talking about. This negotiation is for the benefit of the small market teams, no doubt. The large teams still want to look after their own interests and anything, outside of revenue sharing, that helps the small market teams also increases the bottom line for the large market ones. So, intra-BOG discussions must have been had about the whole range of topics. "What's the highest player percentage of revenue we will accept in a new CBA? What is the most amount of revenue we will be willing to share between teams? We all like the idea of contract length limitation, but what's the highest number of years we are willing to go?" Those are all internal negotiations. From where they ended up there is where they started with when coming up with an initial proposal. We might be talking as long as a year ago, but you can have no doubt that those conversations and negotiations occurred. The benefit of providing a united front is a huge plus in negotiations like this.

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Old
09-14-2012, 07:33 AM
  #370
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This is so, so true. They should take the best deal they can get right before a lockout.
Then why not just simply do away with CBA's and have all players simply be employees at will? If they should simply take what is offered, what is the point of having a players' union?

And again I point out that what is truly unreasonable is to sign players to 6 year deals, and then weeks latter demand that contracts not be any longer than 5 years. Or signing players to market value salaries, to turn around a few weeks latter and demand a pay cut.

Unlike last time, this time around the owners are getting hurt as well. Plenty of them. In all types of markets.

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09-14-2012, 08:00 AM
  #371
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Colaiacovo is off the market.

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Detroit Red Wings ‏@DetroitRedWings
BREAKING: The Red Wings have signed defenseman Carlo Colaiacovo to a two-year deal. http://pic.twitter.com/1UF57PIs

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Old
09-14-2012, 08:30 AM
  #372
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Greed chicken will end in a massive train wreck in just over 12 hrs. Stay tuned for live video of the event! Must see TV indeed.

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Old
09-14-2012, 09:28 AM
  #373
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No meetings have been scheduled. The NHL and PA spoke last night. There will be a lockout tomorrow night. The pressure point is September 23-25. The could get a deal done and open camps on October 1. 10 day camp. No games are lost. Players get their checks on Ocober 15. Owners lose the pre-season revenue. They have 5-7 days to put the deal on paper and both sides vote. Players will get an escrow check next month but that's their $ being returned to them.

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Old
09-14-2012, 09:45 AM
  #374
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Did NBCSN make a deal with the AHL about broadcasting games?

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Old
09-14-2012, 10:44 AM
  #375
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Who cares what Biznasty has to say? He's a borderline 4th line goon, with the maturity level of a frat boy on X. We don't need his input.

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