I think the main concern isnt that machacek is better then gagnon if you look NO one has said otherwise. Its the levek of reaction against one or the oher thats bizarre. Both are unlikely to score over twenty five points and both would be getting less then 6 minutes of icetime.
The bluster over which fourth liner you like is ridiculous. In my eye test gagnon did not look.miles behind machacek. He looked worse but not to the point where id " call for new management" if it was g over m. If thats the straw that breaks the camels back for you, just call for managements head now.
I think the main concern isnt that machacek is better then gagnon if you look NO one has said otherwise. Its the levek of reaction against one or the oher thats bizarre. Both are unlikely to score over twenty five points and both would be getting less then 6 minutes of icetime.
The bluster over which fourth liner you like is ridiculous. In my eye test gagnon did not look.miles behind machacek. He looked worse but not to the point where id " call for new management" if it was g over m. If thats the straw that breaks the camels back for you, just call for managements head now.
I never once said machacek over gagnon means the end of management. I said if gagnon is on the roster at all I would seriously question there ability to put together a roster. And I would.
If machacek playing less than 6 minutes might as get rid of him now, that's not a real chance, that is setting him up to fail. No win scenario for all involved. If he cannot handle the 8-11 minutes a night you need your 4th line the play, get rid of him.
I really think machacek will surprise people this year.
__________________
2012 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS LA KINGS!!! GO JETS GO!
I never once said machacek over gagnon means the end of management. I said if gagnon is on the roster at all I would seriously question there ability to put together a roster. And I would.
If machacek playing less than 6 minutes might as get rid of him now, that's not a real chance, that is setting him up to fail. No win scenario for all involved. If he cannot handle the 8-11 minutes a night you need your 4th line the play, get rid of him.
I really think machacek will surprise people this year.
Bold: I certainly didn't mean to infer that first sentance either.
You said you would be ready for new management if gagnon drew in over machacek. my point is neither are young chaps with oodles of potential, and both are (imo) at the very bottom of the leaguewide player ability. both will be playing 10-12 (your right, my bad, not 6) minutes of icetime, if they somehow manage to draw in over Meitennen (who everyone seems to have forgotten about).
the argument that you will be ready for chevies head, over the selection of one unproven (and thus far bad) fourthliner over another unproven (and thus far, worse) fourth liner seems dramatic don't you think?
I really want Machacek to succeed, and i also believe he can at some point become a third liner, but if management sees something i don't in Gagnon, i'll defer to their judgment because at the end of the day, the difference between the two is not going to be what determines the success of this hockey club.
Bold: I certainly didn't mean to infer that first sentance either.
You said you would be ready for new management if gagnon drew in over machacek. my point is neither are young chaps with oodles of potential, and both are (imo) at the very bottom of the leaguewide player ability. both will be playing 10-12 (your right, my bad, not 6) minutes of icetime, if they somehow manage to draw in over Meitennen (who everyone seems to have forgotten about).
the argument that you will be ready for chevies head, over the selection of one unproven (and thus far bad) fourthliner over another unproven (and thus far, worse) fourth liner seems dramatic don't you think?
I really want Machacek to succeed, and i also believe he can at some point become a third liner, but if management sees something i don't in Gagnon, i'll defer to their judgment because at the end of the day, the difference between the two is not going to be what determines the success of this hockey club.
I said perhaps cause your selling the importance of having 4 lines that you can roll at opponants very far short. You absolutely need to have that, see both la and njd.
How has machacek been " thus far bad" in any sense of the word? I would thus far he's been outstanding. He will likely fall back obviously, but "thus far" he has shown he can be a great young player in the bottom 6 (he's only 23 or just turned 24)
Ok fine yeah I'm not calling for Chevys head if gagnon is on the team, but I still seriously question whether he and the team will be to put together a winner, since the absolute only reason he would be on roster would be for the 400k they save, IMO, which is bad bad news going forward
I said perhaps cause your selling the importance of having 4 lines that you can roll at opponants very far short. You absolutely need to have that, see both la and njd.
How has machacek been " thus far bad" in any sense of the word? I would thus far he's been outstanding. He will likely fall back obviously, but "thus far" he has shown he can be a great young player in the bottom 6 (he's only 23 or just turned 24)
my point on the Thus far "bad" was that at 23-24 he's struggled to make the roster in any capacity aside from his lucky run at the end of the season. He's not a defacto player on the roster by any means (further evidenced by the two way contract)and i would argue he would be fighting for his spot on any roster in the league.
I suppose it all just boils down to a difference of opinion on the importance of how good one of your fourth liners is, ie: i don't see the difference in skill level between Machacek and Gagnon to be large enough to sink the ship that is the Winnipeg Jets.
Either we have vastly different ideas of the skill levels of these two players, or we have vastly different ideas of the importance one fourth liner will make on your team.
In either way, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I for one will not be grabbing a pitchfork over managements decision on one player on the fourth line.
Ok fine yeah I'm not calling for Chevys head if gagnon is on the team, but I still seriously question whether he and the team will be to put together a winner, since the absolute only reason he would be on roster would be for the 400k they save, IMO, which is bad bad news going forward
fair deuce.
but i think if they were that concerned about $$ a certain very large center would have been moved last year.
Man what is this? A popularity contest between Gagnon and Mach? If that's the case, I vote Mach only because his energy and 'never-quit' attitude is quite affectionate. However, I agree with most and that there isn't any substantial, game changing difference between the two. Both are competent in their own ways and I definitely see some upside in gagnon and that he isn't completely useless as some see it.
What I recall was that gagnon had some chemistry with mittens and the two seemed very good whenever they were on (had some great chances around the net). I'm not saying gagnon is great but he isn't horrible either.
Also wanted to comment about the whole stats thing and whether it's going too far or not. Yeah, stats don't tell everything but they don't lie. It's a good tool to evaluate things. I'm personally not a numbers person but I do respect it.
Come on, Lynk. Watching the games doesn't tell you anything. Advanced stats are the only way we can know that Hainsey isn't crap!
The fact that Hainsey was given 2nd pairing responsibilities, PK responsibility and finished with positive results should be all the indication anybody needs. He may not be great, but he isn't as bad as some people paint him to be.
The fact that Hainsey was given 2nd pairing responsibilities, PK responsibility and finished with positive results should be all the indication anybody needs. He may not be great, but he isn't as bad as some people paint him to be.
Shhh he is great!
He is so great that he knew the lockout was coming and took it easy so Jets fans would not miss him too much!!! ps I do like Hainsey and Mach... And pretty much all the Jets with my rose coloured glasses
Frankly, I was not expecting to unleash a ****storm with this thread. Whatever the case may be True North offered Gagnon a one-way contact for this year, something they could have elected to do with Machacek, Maxwell, Jaffray, Meech, Flood, etc last year, but did not. Obviously they saw something in Gagnon. I honestly have no recollection of his play so I can't add much in terms of scouting. My inclination would be that they were looking for help in the circle, where he has displayed acumen at the NHL level. One of the reasons our 4th line was the Achilles heel of the Jets much of last year was that Stapleton couldn't win faceoffs...The 4th line with him, Machacek, and Maxwell that did well down the stretch had Maxwell as the pivot. Personally I would like to see both Machacek and Maxwell make the team next year. But if True North chooses to honour Gagnon's contract it will not be the end of the world, I don't Chevy will be the target of hate mail. If you look at the players who occupied the 23rd player role last year, whether it was Meech, Flood, Fehr or Jones, they all had extensive stretches in the press box. Not all players will take this role, certainly if it were Thorburn or Wellwood for instance there would be a lot of griping, and dissention, probably trade requests, and that kind of distraction tends to negate a team's performance. I think we saw some of that from Fehr last year. I remember Montreal went through that with Carbo and his vets. I think having a minor leaguer trying to earn his keep is the ideal player for that role as Flood did last year. Wouldn't be surprised if Maxwell and Machacek battle for the 13th forward with Mittens, and Gagnon earns the final roster spot. With any injuries they may all be here when the puck drops. And I don't think this is simply about money but integrity also, as other free agents will know that they can trust our management when negotiating a contract. Respect is a mutual avenue. That said if Gagnon does not prove his worth, I hope TN would send him down, as Holden is correct to assert that the best players should be in Winnipeg, even though Cormier didn't make the squad last year, unfortunately. Anyways looking forward to seeing Machacek in Winnipeg some time in 2012, fingers crossed.
Last edited by Klaus: 09-13-2012 at 04:19 AM.
Reason: filter circumvention
Frankly, I was not expecting to unleash a ****storm with this thread. Whatever the case may be True North offered Gagnon a one-way contact for this year, something they could have elected to do with Machacek, Maxwell, Jaffray, Meech, Flood, etc last year, but did not. Obviously they saw something in Gagnon. I honestly have no recollection of his play so I can't add much in terms of scouting. My inclination would be that they were looking for help in the circle, where he has displayed acumen at the NHL level. One of the reasons our 4th line was the Achilles heel of the Jets much of last year was that Stapleton couldn't win faceoffs...The 4th line with him, Machacek, and Maxwell that did well down the stretch had Maxwell as the pivot. Personally I would like to see both Machacek and Maxwell make the team next year. But if True North chooses to honour Gagnon's contract it will not be the end of the world, I don't Chevy will be the target of hate mail. If you look at the players who occupied the 23rd player role last year, whether it was Meech, Flood, Fehr or Jones, they all had extensive stretches in the press box. Not all players will take this role, certainly if it were Thorburn or Wellwood for instance there would be a lot of griping, and dissention, probably trade requests, and that kind of distraction tends to negate a team's performance. I think we saw some of that from Fehr last year. I remember Montreal went through that with Carbo and his vets. I think having a minor leaguer trying to earn his keep is the ideal player for that role as Flood did last year. Wouldn't be surprised if Maxwell and Machacek battle for the 13th forward with Mittens, and Gagnon earns the final roster spot. With any injuries they may all be here when the puck drops. And I don't think this is simply about money but integrity also, as other free agents will know that they can trust our management when negotiating a contract. Respect is a mutual avenue. That said if Gagnon does not prove his worth, I hope TN would send him down, as Holden is correct to assert that the best players should be in Winnipeg, even though Cormier didn't make the squad last year, unfortunately. Anyways looking forward to seeing Machacek in Winnipeg some time in 2012, fingers crossed.
What? How is gifting Gagnon a spot "hounouring" his contract? He signed a contract with the Winnipeg Jets to play in their organization. It guaranteed him a lot of money in the 2nd year, but it certainly did not guarantee a spot. As has been stated in the past, this 2nd year one-way is common practice nowadays for veteran minor leaguers, but it does not mean you keep them on the roster.
It is not a respect thing to keep him on the roster. He has to earn it all the way. If I was a player, it would make it less likely I would want to sign here since they might "gift" spots to players less able to play the game of hockey, thereby hurting the hockey team or costing me my spot. Nowhere does a one-way contract guarantee you a spot, not on one other team in the league. It is NOT honouring his contract to gift him a spot.
I hate this mentality we have in WPG that we need to be the nicest, most respectful, etc or we will never sign an UFA. I want a team that wants to win, that will do anything to win, and will be loyal to it's players that do win, since that is how you win. Obviously we gotta treat our players right, that goes without saying, but we should not be doing things that hurt the team just to try to be so nice that maybe some UFA will grace us with their presence. Don't want to play here. Fine go to some losing team, we will keep on winning. That is the attitude I want.
Also, do really think that Chris Thorburn, Kyle Wellwood or Antti Miettienen are going to demand trades if they are in the press box? Really? They may as well just give up on the NHL if they do, nobody wants any part of a borderline player that is demanding trades. Your bottom line guys need to be character players, need to be team players, if those guys are going to be that petty, time for new bottom line players. I can see them being upset maybe, but their response should be to work their ass off to get back in the lineup. Anything else, **** em.
What? How is gifting Gagnon a spot "hounouring" his contract? He signed a contract with the Winnipeg Jets to play in their organization. It guaranteed him a lot of money in the 2nd year, but it certainly did not guarantee a spot. As has been stated in the past, this 2nd year one-way is common practice nowadays for veteran minor leaguers, but it does not mean you keep them on the roster.
It is not a respect thing to keep him on the roster. He has to earn it all the way. If I was a player, it would make it less likely I would want to sign here since they might "gift" spots to players less able to play the game of hockey, thereby hurting the hockey team or costing me my spot. Nowhere does a one-way contract guarantee you a spot, not on one other team in the league. It is NOT honouring his contract to gift him a spot.
I hate this mentality we have in WPG that we need to be the nicest, most respectful, etc or we will never sign an UFA. I want a team that wants to win, that will do anything to win, and will be loyal to it's players that do win, since that is how you win. Obviously we gotta treat our players right, that goes without saying, but we should not be doing things that hurt the team just to try to be so nice that maybe some UFA will grace us with their presence. Don't want to play here. Fine go to some losing team, we will keep on winning. That is the attitude I want.
Also, do really think that Chris Thorburn, Kyle Wellwood or Antti Miettienen are going to demand trades if they are in the press box? Really? They may as well just give up on the NHL if they do, nobody wants any part of a borderline player that is demanding trades. Your bottom line guys need to be character players, need to be team players, if those guys are going to be that petty, time for new bottom line players. I can see them being upset maybe, but their response should be to work their ass off to get back in the lineup. Anything else, **** em.
I agree with you on every point. Loyalty can be a fault, and it is a quiet reservation with our management in the back of my head.
Overall i am confident they are aware that sone practixes, noble as they may be, do not translate from the minors to the majors. Being loyal is fine as long as your into cutting the players that arent working.
What? How is gifting Gagnon a spot "hounouring" his contract? He signed a contract with the Winnipeg Jets to play in their organization. It guaranteed him a lot of money in the 2nd year, but it certainly did not guarantee a spot. As has been stated in the past, this 2nd year one-way is common practice nowadays for veteran minor leaguers, but it does not mean you keep them on the roster.
It is not a respect thing to keep him on the roster. He has to earn it all the way. If I was a player, it would make it less likely I would want to sign here since they might "gift" spots to players less able to play the game of hockey, thereby hurting the hockey team or costing me my spot. Nowhere does a one-way contract guarantee you a spot, not on one other team in the league. It is NOT honouring his contract to gift him a spot.
I hate this mentality we have in WPG that we need to be the nicest, most respectful, etc or we will never sign an UFA. I want a team that wants to win, that will do anything to win, and will be loyal to it's players that do win, since that is how you win. Obviously we gotta treat our players right, that goes without saying, but we should not be doing things that hurt the team just to try to be so nice that maybe some UFA will grace us with their presence. Don't want to play here. Fine go to some losing team, we will keep on winning. That is the attitude I want.
Also, do really think that Chris Thorburn, Kyle Wellwood or Antti Miettienen are going to demand trades if they are in the press box? Really? They may as well just give up on the NHL if they do, nobody wants any part of a borderline player that is demanding trades. Your bottom line guys need to be character players, need to be team players, if those guys are going to be that petty, time for new bottom line players. I can see them being upset maybe, but their response should be to work their ass off to get back in the lineup. Anything else, **** em.
I know you are a mod, but please try to improve your literacy, buddy There is nothing in my discourse about gifting a roster spot. I do say that the best players should make the team. But the contract Gagnon received is the same as the one Stapleton got previously, and there was some talk whether Stapes would make the team last year, True North chose to honour his contract (their words not mine) even if Cormier had a better camp (and I know it was Mc Lean who got Cormier's spot in the end) Now Stapleton turned out to be useful. Mittens played like garbage for a stretch, got placed on waivers, but TN wouldn't demote him. That's where the honour comes in. I think the criteria is if the player with the one-way has a similar or decent camp compared to a player on a two-way the player with the one-way gets precedent. That's not monumental by any means. I think Machacek should have no trouble proving his worth, he could push up the roster conceivably, but True North did give him a two-way. He passed through waivers last year. It is more likely Maxwell however who will find himself trying to earn a spot over Gagnon as they have similar value and utility I think.
And if Gagnon earned a spot, there is nothing that prevents Cormier, O'Dell, Telegin, Klingberg or Gregoire, or even Maxwell if he passed waivers, getting playing time in the case of injury.
Do you really think if Thorburn or Wellwood had a stretch of 10-15 games in the press box they wouldn't start grumbling? That's awfully naive. Players have pride, and nothing hurts their pride more than not playing, that is the one form of leverage any coach can still use. Add to that that these veteran NHLers are trying to earn a contract for the following season, and you don't prove anything but loyalty sitting in the press box, you will certainly have unhappy players, which equals distractions. Sorry that is the reality of the game today. That's why I believe guys like Gagnon, Maxwell, Meech or Machacek are ideal for this role, as borderline players just trying to prove they are good enough for the Show, and probably why Chevy does too. It gives him the ability to get his young players, waiver-exempt, plenty of quality playing time on the farm.
If nothing else the Jets training camp will be intense, and I have always believed the more internal competition there is in camp the more the team is prepared out of the gate. The reality of this stupid lockout is these guys like Machacek on two-ways playing a high level of competition in the A as well as the young guns like Cormier and Redmond may have an advantage over the borderline players on one ways who don't get any competition during the lockout, when the puck finally does drop.
As for the winning attitude, I would say trading a 20 minute a game, penalty killing defenseman for draft picks who won't see the ice for 3-5 years in all likelihood, and replacing him with a waiver pick-up while holding down a playoff spot is more exemplary of a losing attitude than having a borderline NHLer get a roster spot, don't you?
I know you are a mod, but please try to improve your literacy, buddy There is nothing in my discourse about gifting a roster spot. I do say that the best players should make the team. But the contract Gagnon received is the same as the one Stapleton got previously, and there was some talk whether Stapes would make the team last year, True North chose to honour his contract (their words not mine) even if Cormier had a better camp (and I know it was Mc Lean who got Cormier's spot in the end) Now Stapleton turned out to be useful. Mittens played like garbage for a stretch, got placed on waivers, but TN wouldn't demote him. That's where the honour comes in. I think the criteria is if the player with the one-way has a similar or decent camp compared to a player on a two-way the player with the one-way gets precedent. That's not monumental by any means. I think Machacek should have no trouble proving his worth, he could push up the roster conceivably, but True North did give him a two-way. He passed through waivers last year. It is more likely Maxwell however who will find himself trying to earn a spot over Gagnon as they have similar value and utility I think.
And if Gagnon earned a spot, there is nothing that prevents Cormier, O'Dell, Telegin, Klingberg or Gregoire, or even Maxwell if he passed waivers, getting playing time in the case of injury.
Do you really think if Thorburn or Wellwood had a stretch of 10-15 games in the press box they wouldn't start grumbling? That's awfully naive. Players have pride, and nothing hurts their pride more than not playing, that is the one form of leverage any coach can still use. Add to that that these veteran NHLers are trying to earn a contract for the following season, and you don't prove anything but loyalty sitting in the press box, you will certainly have unhappy players, which equals distractions. Sorry that is the reality of the game today. That's why I believe guys like Gagnon, Maxwell, Meech or Machacek are ideal for this role, as borderline players just trying to prove they are good enough for the Show, and probably why Chevy does too. It gives him the ability to get his young players, waiver-exempt, plenty of quality playing time on the farm.
If nothing else the Jets training camp will be intense, and I have always believed the more internal competition there is in camp the more the team is prepared out of the gate. The reality of this stupid lockout is these guys like Machacek on two-ways playing a high level of competition in the A as well as the young guns like Cormier and Redmond may have an advantage over the borderline players on one ways who don't get any competition during the lockout, when the puck finally does drop.
As for the winning attitude, I would say trading a 20 minute a game, penalty killing defenseman for draft picks who won't see the ice for 3-5 years in all likelihood, and replacing him with a waiver pick-up while holding down a playoff spot is more exemplary of a losing attitude than having a borderline NHLer get a roster spot, don't you?
May logic prevail.
or proper asset management. But you know, context be damned right?
Well said.
ps I do like Hainsey and Mach... And pretty much all the Jets with my rose coloured glasses
There is nothing in my discourse about gifting a roster spot. I do say that the best players should make the team. But the contract Gagnon received is the same as the one Stapleton got previously, and there was some talk whether Stapes would make the team last year, True North chose to honour his contract (their words not mine) even if Cormier had a better camp (and I know it was Mc Lean who got Cormier's spot in the end) Now Stapleton turned out to be useful. Mittens played like garbage for a stretch, got placed on waivers, but TN wouldn't demote him. That's where the honour comes in. I think the criteria is if the player with the one-way has a similar or decent camp compared to a player on a two-way the player with the one-way gets precedent. That's not monumental by any means. I think Machacek should have no trouble proving his worth, he could push up the roster conceivably, but True North did give him a two-way. He passed through waivers last year. It is more likely Maxwell however who will find himself trying to earn a spot over Gagnon as they have similar value and utility I think. 
