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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:06 PM
  #601
Avim86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Lets do ourselves a favor here and never ever again refer to Plekanec as an "Elite Defensive center"

Ever.

Thats just about as funny as suggesting the starting point for a trade with Anaheim is Plekanec for Perry.....Yea okay, not a chance.
Care to actually give a reason why you don't think he belongs in the elite defensive category? I never suggested Plekanec for Perry...So bringing that up as a comparison means nothing to me...
Plekanec has proven time and time again that he is very underrated on these boards...One of the best Pkers in the game , amazing acceleration , always near the top in short handed goals , often times people forget that he has hit 70 points on an offensively anemic team while consistently being his teams best defensive forward.

____________________

2010-2011 :

Last year, Plekanec finished 26th in Selke voting, with 14 points that included one second-place nod, two fourth place and one fifth. Comparing him to last year's top-five, one could argue he should have finished higher, if stats are an accurate measure of worthiness.

In shorthanded minutes played per game, Plekanec was ahead of Datsyuk, Bergeron, Toews and Kesler. Only Staal played more PK than Pleks. In shorthanded points, however, Plekanec's lone shortie ranked behind everyone except Datsyuk who had none.

Pleks had more takeaways than Staal, more blocked shots than Staal, Bergeron, Datsyuk or Toews and the same number of hits as Bergeron. He was better on the draw than Staal, but his 49% was well behind the other top-five vote getters. His plus/minus was better than Kesler's. He scored the same number of points as Datsyuk and more than everyone else in the top five except Kesler.

In short, Plekanec stands up extremely well in comparison to last year's top five candidates for the Selke and flat-out beats one of the nominees, Jordan Staal, in takeaways, blocked shots, faceoff percentage and points scored. He beat the winner in PK minutes played, PK points scored and shots blocked.

2010-2011 Frank Selke Trophy Voting, Top 20 Finishers Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)

1. Ryan Kesler, VAN 1,179 (105-14-5-2-0)
2. Jonathan Toews, CHI 476 (5-36-24-15-9)
3. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 348 (4-22-22-12-8)
4. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 296 (3-18-21-9-8)
5. Manny Malhotra, VAN 229 (6-10-10-14-7)
6. Frans Nielsen, NYI 97 (0-4-8-6-11)
7. David Backes, STL 88 (1-2-6-9-7)
8. Mike Richards, PHI 83 (1-2-4-11-6)
9. Anze Kopitar, L.A. 55 (0-2-4-5-6)
10. Ryan Callahan, NYR 51 (0-1-5-5-4)
11. Brooks Laich, WSH 36 (0-1-2-4-7)
12. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 33 (0-2-2-2-3)
13. Tomas Plekanec, MTL 29 (0-1-1-3-8)
14. Claude Giroux, PHI 25 (1-0-1-3-1)
15. Jordan Staal, PIT 25 (0-2-2-0-1)
16. Brad Richards, DAL 15 (0-0-2-1-2)
17. Pascal Dupuis, PIT 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
18. Brandon Prust, NYR 14 (0-1-0-2-1)
19. Martin St. Louis, T.B. 12 (0-1-1-0-0)
20. Michael Grabner, NYI 11 (1-0-0-0-1)
_________________________________________________

2011-2012
1. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 1,312 (106-30-6-4-0)
2. David Backes, STL 698 (24-46-15-17-10)
3. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 553 (8-30-38-21-10)
4. Ryan Callahan, NYR 326 (6-11-22-22-13)
5. Ryan Kesler, VAN 152 (1-3-14-13-12)
6. Jonathan Toews, CHI 117 (1-2-8-13-14)
7. Mike Fisher, NSH 72 (0-3-6-6-3)
8. Jordan Staal, PIT 67 (0-1-6-7-9)
9. Anze Kopitar, L.A. 62 (0-3-4-4-9)
10. Patrick Sharp, CHI 52 (0-2-5-4-1)
11. Joe Pavelski, S.J. 44 (0-3-0-5-8)
12. Ray Whitney, PHX 36 (0-4-1-1-0)
13. Pascal Dupuis, PIT 28 (1-0-2-2-2)
14. Ryan O’Reilly, COL 27 (0-1-1-3-6)
15. Tomas Plekanec, MTL 25 (0-1-3-1-0)
16. Chris Kelly, BOS 23 (0-1-1-3-2)
17. Marian Hossa, CHI 23 (0-0-2-2-7)
18. Zach Parise, N.J. 18 (0-1-1-2-0)
19. Patrik Elias, N.J. 15 (0-0-0-5-0)
20. Maxime Talbot, PHI 13 (1-0-0-1-0)


Last edited by Avim86: 09-13-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 04:08 PM
  #602
jpchabby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Lets do ourselves a favor here and never ever again refer to Plekanec as an "Elite Defensive center"

Ever.

Thats just about as funny as suggesting the starting point for a trade with Anaheim is Plekanec for Perry.....Yea okay, not a chance.
well I'm sorry, but he really is an elite defensive center... he gets around 60 points a year and always plays against the other team's top line at even strength and on the PK...

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #603
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Subban is a good dman but he makes a lot of stupid decission, will be interesting how good Courtierer will be I see him as a 2C as his high.

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09-13-2012, 04:42 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
He's younger and has more upside.
So ?I know it's hfboards common belief that upside is something every player will hit, but in the real world that **** doesn't fly.

Why don't you just say "We drafted Couturier and he contributed to our team from the start. We want to continue to stick with him and see how he develops as our team is in a win now situation and Couturier doesn't hidden that. In the long run, he could allow our window of success to be longer."

Players exceed expectations and people underachieve. No one expected Lidstrom to become one of the greatest. Everyone expected Daigle to be.

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09-13-2012, 04:51 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Lets do ourselves a favor here and never ever again refer to Plekanec as an "Elite Defensive center"

Ever.
He is.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:53 PM
  #606
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I know this has been said many times in the past couple of months but just for giggles I'd like to say it again.

Sean Couturier is the most overrated player on HF by a country mile.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:55 PM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
Lets do ourselves a favor here and never ever again refer to Plekanec as an "Elite Defensive center"

Ever.

Thats just about as funny as suggesting the starting point for a trade with Anaheim is Plekanec for Perry.....Yea okay, not a chance.
Plekanec is an elite defensive center.

There.

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Old
09-13-2012, 04:58 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
So ?I know it's hfboards common belief that upside is something every player will hit, but in the real world that **** doesn't fly.

Why don't you just say "We drafted Couturier and he contributed to our team from the start. We want to continue to stick with him and see how he develops as our team is in a win now situation and Couturier doesn't hidden that. In the long run, he could allow our window of success to be longer."

Players exceed expectations and people underachieve. No one expected Lidstrom to become one of the greatest. Everyone expected Daigle to be.
Because the person was responding to a Ducks fan, not a Flyers fan, so why would I refer to what Flyer fans think of him?

And BTW, I full-heartedly agree. I've said many times that I think his potential is overrated by Flyer fans and that the people who try to use the "he played tough minutes with bad line mates" reason and the "look at his Junior numbers" should look at the many players who didn't get any better despite similar background. I've pointed out that players don't always get better and I've disagreed with everyone who says "look at what Giroux did his rookie season" or the person who said "look at what Datsyuk did his rookie season". Players don't progress like most people think they will and most of them don't fulfill what their projections were prior to the NHL. I've also said that one good season doesn't mean much. You don't need to convince me. It's just how most people on HF boards think about their players/prospects. All their top prospects are going to be superstars, franchise defensemen, PPG selke caliber forwards, 100 point center men, top 5 or 10 10 center men, etc.

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09-13-2012, 05:41 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
Plekanec is an elite defensive center.

There.
He has indeed become one. He didn't start out as one, but the more the Habs needed him, the more he has come on in the last couple years. To the detriment of his offensive game at times, but especially from the 2010 playoffs onward, he has taken on the role, and steadily improved, using his speed and anticipation to better and better effect. He was a definite factor in the Habs' successful PK last year. I'm not sure that he has plateaued yet either. He could still stand to be a little more physical (not that it will intimidate or anything, but just to jostle and be a bit abrasive and annoying more, which he is capable of) and get better on draws. If he was going to hone his defensive role further. But flip side, he could be asked to focus more again on offense... hard to say, but given the projected lack of wingers for him to do that, and some of the other personnel on the team, I'd predict he reprises the defensive role moreso once again.

It's hard to judge defensive forwards at time, and subjective how one defines "elite" in any case, but I think that his Selke status of "top-15"-ish is more of a "worst case" than a best case ranking for him, anyway.

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09-13-2012, 07:40 PM
  #610
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I was worried by the title until i saw that it was written bertrand raymond.

Subban for Court, would be close in value but D-men have a bit more value, specially right-handed d-men.

Im glad that the Habs are not giving in to Subban and his agent by giving him a long term deal (5-6 years) that teams are giving to guys like Seguin, Skinner, Hall etc who get those deals right after their ELC, those deals makes those guys all UFA at a young ages.

I rather the Habs keep doing what they have done in the past, by signing players to 2 year deals after their ELC and then signing them to a long term deal, eating up more ufa years, perfect examples are Price and Pacioretty, all got 2 year deals after their ELC and then got long term deals that takes them into their 30 years.

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09-13-2012, 08:17 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by OilFan91 View Post
Subban for Bryz? Montreal needs a goalie and Philly adds another dman. Is it close or should there be a couple extra pieces in there to balance it?
Pass.
I think a better deal is P.K to the Oilers for Eberle and RNH.
Oilers have no defense what so ever to speak of and P.K would instantly become the best player on their entire team.
Eberle and RNH would help offset the loss of P.K. to a point only because we have D-man on their way up.
I know the Trade favors the Oilers but i'm feeling a bit generous today.

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09-13-2012, 09:13 PM
  #612
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Let's all do ourselves a favour and stop using NHL Award voting in our arguments. Morons vote for those Awards.

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09-13-2012, 09:45 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Because the person was responding to a Ducks fan, not a Flyers fan, so why would I refer to what Flyer fans think of him?

And BTW, I full-heartedly agree. I've said many times that I think his potential is overrated by Flyer fans and that the people who try to use the "he played tough minutes with bad line mates" reason and the "look at his Junior numbers" should look at the many players who didn't get any better despite similar background. I've pointed out that players don't always get better and I've disagreed with everyone who says "look at what Giroux did his rookie season" or the person who said "look at what Datsyuk did his rookie season". Players don't progress like most people think they will and most of them don't fulfill what their projections were prior to the NHL. I've also said that one good season doesn't mean much. You don't need to convince me. It's just how most people on HF boards think about their players/prospects. All their top prospects are going to be superstars, franchise defensemen, PPG selke caliber forwards, 100 point center men, top 5 or 10 10 center men, etc.
Though that might be true, that every fan always overrate the players on the team they cheer for, everyone should think of one thing regarding this rumour. If Holmgren and the Flyers wouldn't give up Couturier as part of a deal to get Shea Weber, why would they trade him to get Subban. Subban may turn into a great defenseman but Weber is already there. As a Flyer fan, I'd be pissed at Holmgren trade Couturier for Subban when he could have package him to get Weber.

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09-13-2012, 10:54 PM
  #614
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Though that might be true, that every fan always overrate the players on the team they cheer for, everyone should think of one thing regarding this rumour. If Holmgren and the Flyers wouldn't give up Couturier as part of a deal to get Shea Weber, why would they trade him to get Subban. Subban may turn into a great defenseman but Weber is already there. As a Flyer fan, I'd be pissed at Holmgren trade Couturier for Subban when he could have package him to get Weber.
Because he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn ++ for Weber, not Couturier for Weber.

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09-13-2012, 11:21 PM
  #615
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Because he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn ++ for Weber, not Couturier for Weber.
Ya no kidding if holmgren wouldn't trade couturier for Weber he should be fired on the spot. I'm surprised people believe it as if it were a 1 for 1 deal.

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09-13-2012, 11:26 PM
  #616
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Pass.
I think a better deal is P.K to the Oilers for Eberle and RNH.
Oilers have no defense what so ever to speak of and P.K would instantly become the best player on their entire team.
Eberle and RNH would help offset the loss of P.K. to a point only because we have D-man on their way up.
I know the Trade favors the Oilers but i'm feeling a bit generous today.
Please stop posting this kind of stuff it's crazy I would trade
Subban ++++++ for RNH and oilers would still say no.
You also want eberle? Oh wow...

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09-13-2012, 11:37 PM
  #617
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Please stop posting this kind of stuff it's crazy I would trade
Subban ++++++ for RNH and oilers would still say no.
You also want eberle? Oh wow...
He was being sarcastic. Look at the post he was quoting.

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Old
09-14-2012, 03:47 AM
  #618
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Right now, I think that is is Couturier + for Subban. However, I believe that it will be Subban + for Couturier in the future.

Coming from a Leafs/Oilers fan.. I've got no love for either Mtl or Phi so that is my honest opinion, no stake in this argument.
I think it's the opposite, Subban has so much upsides, it's coming out of his ears. Just need to learn to be disciplined. Subban has the potential to be this league's number one D and I don't think Couturier has that potential be this good as a forward.

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09-14-2012, 07:45 AM
  #619
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

I'm told #Flyers will NOT give an offer sheet to Subban and will NOT try to acquire him. End of story.
Thank goodness.

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09-14-2012, 08:07 AM
  #620
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

I'm told #Flyers will NOT give an offer sheet to Subban and will NOT try to acquire him. End of story.
If this is a reliable source, then all of this is for nothing. How reliable is Sam Carchidi when it comes to Flyer stuff?

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Old
09-14-2012, 08:11 AM
  #621
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If this is a reliable source, then all of this is for nothing. How reliable is Sam Carchidi when it comes to Flyer stuff?
Dunno, but it just makes sense. It is credible that in the immediate wake of the Shea Weber loss they were sniffing around for another target. It also makes sense that they would be quickly rebuffed by both the Habs (who don't want to move Subban) and probably by Subban himself (who seems very keen on staying with the Habs). So this is very likely all very minor and ancient news, and quite pointless to still be discussing it now.

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09-14-2012, 08:31 AM
  #622
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Subban for Bryz? Montreal needs a goalie and Philly adds another dman. Is it close or should there be a couple extra pieces in there to balance it?
You getting Montreal confused with Edmonton?

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09-14-2012, 08:35 AM
  #623
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Ya no kidding if holmgren wouldn't trade couturier for Weber he should be fired on the spot. I'm surprised people believe it as if it were a 1 for 1 deal.
I never said it was a one for one deal, I posted that Couturier was part of a package deal. Learn to read before posting!

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09-14-2012, 08:49 AM
  #624
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Flyers already have a #1 goaltender. They need a #1 D, not a goaltender. I'm kinda sick of hearing people saying that Bryz sucks, etc. Bryz is a solid goaltender who has had a bad year. I still have a lot of faith in him.
I think Flyer fan is trying very hard to convince themselves that its only the above.

Bryz is a nutbag. Plain and simple. You dont know what you're going to get night in, night out. They were warned and they still chose to give him that awful contract.

Personally I like him, but Im usually fond of the crazy element of society.

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09-14-2012, 08:56 AM
  #625
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I never said it was a one for one deal, I posted that Couturier was part of a package deal. Learn to read before posting!
It's completely different refusing to trade both Schenn and Couturier and add to that than refusing to trade Couturier for Weber. One significantly hurts your teams depth, the other trades Couturier and maybe one forward, and a d-man and maybe some picks for the best d-man in the world. If Holmgren could have gotten Weber for Couturier, Read, d-man & a 1 round pick, you think he wouldn't have done it?

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