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Old
09-13-2012, 10:31 PM
  #176
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
He could be the #1 Centre Toronto needs.

Here's the package I think it would require from Toronto:

Nazem Kadri, Tyler Bozak and a 2013 1st.
So you're willing to give this up for an underperforming overpaid number 1 C who's a UFA season after next(not saying he's not worth it) but not for a top-5 goalie being paid 1.3 mil less signed for as long as you want, with the option to bury him in the minors if he doesn't want to retire, even though Luongo would probably ensure a higher chance of the 1st being later than Stastny would?

#rant
(Apologies for minor OT)

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Old
09-13-2012, 10:33 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So you're willing to give this up for an underperforming overpaid number 1 C who's a UFA season after next(not saying he's not worth it) but not for a top-5 goalie being paid 1.3 mil less signed for as long as you want, with the option to bury him in the minors if he doesn't want to retire, even though Luongo would probably ensure a higher chance of the 1st being later than Stastny would?

#rant
(Apologies for minor OT)
Yeah, no one in this thread cares about your woes with Luongo. Go whine about it in a Luongo thread.





Oh, and judging from Gillis's comments, no GM really seems to think Luongo is worth all that much either....otherwise he would already be traded. Face the fact that not everyone wants a goalie for the next 12 years. Don't come complain in an unrelated thread about fans on HF not offering you enough for your goalie.

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09-13-2012, 10:43 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Yeah, no one in this thread cares about your woes with Luongo. Go whine about it in a Luongo thread.





Oh, and judging from Gillis's comments, no GM really seems to think Luongo is worth all that much either....otherwise he would already be traded. Face the fact that not everyone wants a goalie for the next 12 years. Don't come complain in an unrelated thread about fans on HF not offering you enough for your goalie.
It's not that unrelated. While those pieces may not fit your need, it is overpayment for Stastny.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:09 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by SSoH View Post
Stastny isn't a # 1 on most teams?

BOS: 1C (Kreijci is arguable)
BUF
CAL
CLB
DAL: 1C (Benn is arguable)
FLO
EDM: 1C (RNH in a couple of years)
MIN
MTL
NJ
NAS
PHX
STL
TOR
WPG

Leaf fans try to justify to themselves he isn't a 1C so they only have to give up Bozak + Komisarek + 3rd to get him, and they're only fooling themselves.
I really like Stastny, but you have him overrated. He is more on the Plekanec/Weiss level than the Krejci/Benn/RNH level. In fact, Stastny would be the 4th best center on the Boston roster. Krejci, Bergeron, Seguin are all better. Koivu is better in MN. Backes belongs on the wing, but is better.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:17 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
And how exactly did that work out for the Leafs?
Better than not having him.

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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Didn't you read what he said??? It turned out quite well for the Leafs.

After all:



This means contracts like Gomez, are, in fact, not bad at all, since they don't for into seanlindens two category's of what equals a bad contract!!



What this means is that Avs should go out and sign players until they reach the cap ceiling, since after all, no contract is a bad contract unless it falls into one of seanlindens two category's. It's brilliant.
No, Scott Gomez is a bad contract because of what Montreal could've done with $7m in cap space over the last few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure View Post
The leafs spent 57 mill in 09-10 and finished with 74 points. They didn't make any significant signings, had a lower budget and finished with 85 points in 10-11. Then they upped their spending to 63 million and fell back to 80 points. But I thought it was easy to spend money? Seems like Burke must be intentionally trying to lose because hes spending more money, and since spending money correlates to more wins, he must be telling his team to intentionally lose.
Anyone intelligent would realize that a) spending is relative, the NHL has seen inflation every year, and that b) the Leafs are an outlier of the dataset in terms of points per dollar spent.

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Originally Posted by ThunderBird View Post
Your whole premise is flawed. Teams that do the best get the best talent for their dollars. You are the only one that judges a GM by the amount of money they spend. Everyone else judges by the amount of talent that they gather.

We have shown you facts that goes along with what the GM and owner are saying and most of us follow the Avalanche pretty closely and are all on the same page about the Avs not having a spending limit lower than the cap limit.

If the 10 people that have tried using facts can't prove you are wrong, then I am done trying. You can keep saying the same thing but no one is believing you.
I'm not judging Sherman by the dollars he spends, I don't know where you're getting that idea. I'm judging the dollars that Sherman has to spend based on what he does spend.... because as mentioned, GMs don't intentionally lose and leave money.

The only relevant fact that's been presented in this thread is what Colorado has spent on players in recent years. Comments are by management (who has incentive to convince you that they're doing everything they can to win) cannot be taken as fact. Making these comments simply serves that purpose.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:20 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's not that unrelated. While those pieces may not fit your need, it is overpayment for Stastny.
Overpayment? Really?

Bozak: Number 3 centre
Kadri: not NHL proven, his value is not as high as people think it is
1st round pick: Unless we know its going to be high we don't want it

The Colorado Avalanche are NOT INTERESTED in futures for a proven NHL centreman, who at the age of 26, is still young. This is a deal that has very little chance of working out for the Avalanche.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:25 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
Overpayment? Really?

Bozak: Number 3 centre
Kadri: not NHL proven, his value is not as high as people think it is
1st round pick: Unless we know its going to be high we don't want it

The Colorado Avalanche are NOT INTERESTED in futures for a proven NHL centreman, who at the age of 26, is still young. This is a deal that has very little chance of working out for the Avalanche.
I said it didn't meet your needs. It's still overpayment, and there's a very good chance you win that trade in the long run, regardless of your needs now.

The fact you wouldn't do it doesn't mean the value's off. If NYR offered us Lundqvist for Booth, we wouldn't say no because it's not enough value, but we'd still say no, despite it being an overpayment.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:38 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I said it didn't meet your needs. It's still overpayment, and there's a very good chance you win that trade in the long run, regardless of your needs now.

The fact you wouldn't do it doesn't mean the value's off. If NYR offered us Lundqvist for Booth, we wouldn't say no because it's not enough value, but we'd still say no, despite it being an overpayment.
If your offered Lundqvist for Booth you take it and flip Lundqvist for something else. We would not win that trade in the long run, its too much of a risk when its easier to not take the deal and not take a dumb risk.

Futures are far overrated on this forum. Pick's are too highly valued here. Same with sketchy prospects.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:45 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by RoytoSakic View Post
If your offered Lundqvist for Booth you take it and flip Lundqvist for something else. We would not win that trade in the long run, its too much of a risk when its easier to not take the deal and not take a dumb risk.

Futures are far overrated on this forum. Pick's are too highly valued here. Same with sketchy prospects.
Meh, agree to disagree. Right now I would gauge Stastny's value at a 10th overall pick. There is a decent chance that Toronto ends up with that, and Kadri is still a very good prospect (I'd say worth about 20-25th overall)on top of that.

Bozak is Bozak.

I agree it doesn't meet your needs, but there's a pretty good chance you end up with 2 impact NHLers and a bottom 6 player in the future.

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Old
09-13-2012, 11:51 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I said it didn't meet your needs. It's still overpayment, and there's a very good chance you win that trade in the long run, regardless of your needs now.

The fact you wouldn't do it doesn't mean the value's off. If NYR offered us Lundqvist for Booth, we wouldn't say no because it's not enough value, but we'd still say no, despite it being an overpayment.
Bozak, Kadri and a 1st is not even remotely overpayment for Stastny. Unless we're talking about an assured top 5 pick, we're getting back a 3rd line center, a questionable prospect and a mystery 1st rounder. What a wonderful package for a #1 center.

But I don't know why I'd post this, since you just said Vancouver would say no to Booth for Lundqvist. THAT is an actual overpayment, something that wouldn't be said no to in a million years.

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09-13-2012, 11:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Bozak, Kadri and a 1st is not even remotely overpayment for Stastny. Unless we're talking about an assured top 5 pick, we're getting back a 3rd line center, a questionable prospect and a mystery 1st rounder. What a wonderful package for a #1 center.

But I don't know why I'd post this, since you just said Vancouver would say no to Booth for Lundqvist. THAT is an actual overpayment, something that wouldn't be said no to in a million years.
Do you really think you could do better than a Bozak, Kadri, and a first for Stastny?? or even an offer near that from another team (Leafs wouldn't do that deal). If the answer is no, then by definition it's an overpayment. If the answer's yes, I'd be interested to see an example.

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09-13-2012, 11:57 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Bozak, Kadri and a 1st is not even remotely overpayment for Stastny. Unless we're talking about an assured top 5 pick, we're getting back a 3rd line center, a questionable prospect and a mystery 1st rounder. What a wonderful package for a #1 center.

But I don't know why I'd post this, since you just said Vancouver would say no to Booth for Lundqvist. THAT is an actual overpayment, something that wouldn't be said no to in a million years.
Whatever. This isn't my proposal. Although if I were offered a top 5 pick alone for Stastny, I would take it and run.

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Old
09-14-2012, 12:14 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Whatever. This isn't my proposal. Although if I were offered a top 5 pick alone for Stastny, I would take it and run.
Yes, I'm sure you would...just a heads up, Kadri, 1st, and Bozak is definitely not overpayment for Stastny. Would you accept a similar offer for Kesler?? If the Leafs offered that, I think it would be a huge no. We need none of those pieces.

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Old
09-14-2012, 12:15 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Do you really think you could do better than a Bozak, Kadri, and a first for Stastny?? or even an offer near that from another team (Leafs wouldn't do that deal). If the answer is no, then by definition it's an overpayment. If the answer's yes, I'd be interested to see an example.
It does not matter if you think its overpayment or not. We don't care if no other team would offer that. We are in no hurry to move Stastny. How many threads do Avs fans have to say this in?? How thick are some of you?? Unless it fills our needs, we don't care.

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09-14-2012, 12:16 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Yes, I'm sure you would...just a heads up, Kadri, 1st, and Bozak is definitely not overpayment for Stastny. Would you accept a similar offer for Kesler?? If the Leafs offered that, I think it would be a huge no. We need none of those pieces.
Kesler is much cheaper, signed for longer, and much better than Stastny. And for the umpteenth time I know the Avs would say no. It doesn't mean the value is poor.

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09-14-2012, 12:18 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I said it didn't meet your needs. It's still overpayment, and there's a very good chance you win that trade in the long run, regardless of your needs now.

The fact you wouldn't do it doesn't mean the value's off. If NYR offered us Lundqvist for Booth, we wouldn't say no because it's not enough value, but we'd still say no, despite it being an overpayment.
Well you just lost all credibility with me, sorry....if a team offers you that lopsided value, you take it and run. If you get offered a top three goalie for a 2nd line winger....its a yes.

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09-14-2012, 12:20 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Kesler is much cheaper, signed for longer, and much better than Stastny. And for the umpteenth time I know the Avs would say no. It doesn't mean the value is poor.
Yes yes, I knew I would be getting the Kesler is better response. Look at Hemsky though after the same injury Kesler got....never been the same. If I was a Canuck fan, I would be pretty worried if Kesler will ever return to form.


And sorry for reiterating ...you just did not seem to be getting it.

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09-14-2012, 12:26 AM
  #193
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Well you just lost all credibility with me, sorry....if a team offers you that lopsided value, you take it and run. If you get offered a top three goalie for a 2nd line winger....its a yes.
With three starting goalies and in cap hell, we'd be forced to make a fire sale and get even less value, apart from the fact we need a top-6 winger, and it would be ridiculous to give up one.

This is completely off-topic, and while it was an exaggeration, it was simply to make a point.

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09-14-2012, 12:30 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
With three starting goalies and in cap hell, we'd be forced to make a fire sale and get even less value, apart from the fact we need a top-6 winger, and it would be ridiculous to give up one.

This is completely off-topic, and while it was an exaggeration, it was simply to make a point.
Yes. It would be so tough to flip the 2nd best goalie in the world....I dunno....you might only have 15 teams interested. Don't make dumb points. Thats like me saying I would not trade Stastny for someone like Giroux because we have enough centers.

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09-14-2012, 12:34 AM
  #195
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Yes. It would be so tough to flip the 2nd best goalie in the world....I dunno....you might only have 15 teams interested. Don't make dumb points. Thats like me saying I would not trade Stastny for someone like Giroux because we have enough centers.
I'm not going to bother making a comparison between the two examples, but I will say that just because a team says no doesn't mean the value is low.

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09-14-2012, 01:01 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by SSoH View Post
Stastny isn't a # 1 on most teams?

BOS: 1C (Kreijci is arguable)
BUF
CAL
CLB
DAL: 1C (Benn is arguable)
FLO
EDM: 1C (RNH in a couple of years)
MIN
MTL
NJ
NAS
PHX
STL
TOR
WPG

Leaf fans try to justify to themselves he isn't a 1C so they only have to give up Bozak + Komisarek + 3rd to get him, and they're only fooling themselves.
He's certainly not a #1 center on Dallas or Boston and teams like St. Louis are arguable as well.

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09-14-2012, 09:14 AM
  #197
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Id like to take a flyer on Statsny but im sure most know that contracts like his are going to become some teams Achilles heal once these CBA negotiations are complete. Only way id give up any value for him would be to send komisarek, connolly, etc the other way.

Secondly im not sure why Bozak gets such a bad wrap... hes a versatile player that plays in all situations on all lines. If i was a GM i'd love to have a player like him. I see comparisons to ROR if i may say so myself. Obviously ROR is younger... and had one better season but Bozak isnt very far behind.

Keeping in mind both entered the league in the same year. Both players played on the top lines of their teams last season. Yes ROR is better defensively, but i know Bozak gets a bad wrap simply by being a leaf.

ROR
2009-2010 = 82GP 8G 18A 26P 0.31PPG
2010-2011 = 74GP 13G 13A 26P 0.35PPG
2011-2012 = 81GP 18G 37A 55P 0.68PPG

Bozak
2009-2010 = 37GP 8G 19A 27P 0.73PPG
2010-2011 = 82GP 15G 17A 32P 0.40ppg
2011-2012 = 73GP 18G 29A 47P 0.64PPG


Last edited by HockeyGuruPitka: 09-14-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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09-14-2012, 10:02 AM
  #198
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I like Stastny. Lots of skill, and if Colorado is willing to take Komi/Connolly in a deal with more added of course, them im all for it!

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09-14-2012, 10:07 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Id like to take a flyer on Statsny but im sure most know that contracts like his are going to become some teams Achilles heal once these CBA negotiations are complete. Only way id give up any value for him would be to send komisarek, connolly, etc the other way.

Secondly im not sure why Bozak gets such a bad wrap... hes a versatile player that plays in all situations on all lines. If i was a GM i'd love to have a player like him. I see comparisons to ROR if i may say so myself. Obviously ROR is younger... and had one better season but Bozak isnt very far behind.

Keeping in mind both entered the league in the same year. Both players played on the top lines of their teams last season. Yes ROR is better defensively, but i know Bozak gets a bad wrap simply by being a leaf.

ROR
2009-2010 = 82GP 8G 18A 26P 0.31PPG
2010-2011 = 74GP 13G 13A 26P 0.35PPG
2011-2012 = 81GP 18G 37A 55P 0.68PPG

Bozak
2009-2010 = 37GP 8G 19A 27P 0.73PPG
2010-2011 = 82GP 15G 17A 32P 0.40ppg
2011-2012 = 73GP 18G 29A 47P 0.64PPG
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason he gets a bad wrap is because Toronto fans put him in nearly every single trade proposal they make?

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09-14-2012, 10:13 AM
  #200
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Do you really think you could do better than a Bozak, Kadri, and a first for Stastny?? or even an offer near that from another team (Leafs wouldn't do that deal). If the answer is no, then by definition it's an overpayment. If the answer's yes, I'd be interested to see an example.
"Edler Raymond and Jensen for Statsny and some filler? I am not totally familiar with the Avs prospect pool" #76

"Habs Will give 2firsts(2013,2014) a second in 2015" #4

"Bouwmeester, Backlund, Prospect (Not Sven), 3rd 2014, for Statsny" #99

"How about Dustin Byfuglien and 2nd?" #72

So for Bozak a run of the mill third line center, Kadri who cannot break into a bottom 5 team, and a 1st. I like the first but the rest is blah.

Here are 4 from this thread that are as good or better than that offer.

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