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Old
09-13-2012, 06:11 PM
  #426
Drizzt1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Uhh...WHAT??

Why are you putting forward lines when analyzing which team has the better Defensive corps?

This isn't about POINTS! It's about stopping the opposition, plain and simple. Which GROUP has the best chance (or worse chance in this case) of doing that. And you're putting up the forward lines of the Islanders and Mark Frikkin' Streit??? The guy is BRUTAL defensively but yeah, on the PP he's dynamite. Again, not what we're talking about here.





So people telling you that our young core that is average aged around 22-24 years old is going to get better is 'drawing a long bow' but you can make statements like 'I just know Chris Stewart would have kept producing if he had stayed with the Avs' isn't??

Based on his struggles in St-Louis, he's got some fundamental issues going on that clearly affect his work ethic. The PROOF is that he was in Hitchcock's doghouse for most of the year last year. Nah, we can't use that as an argument, that would make too much sense.

Let's ALSO forget the fact that by trading Stewart & Shattenkirk made us a WORSE team in the short-term, in a lost season that enabled us to grab Landeskog, a player who is already superior to Stewart at 19 years of age. (I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it happened)

Oh and on the Liles issue, he was headed into the last year of his contract and based on what Wisniewski was able to sign for with the Jackets, Liles was set to earn close to $5M per year. He's good but he's certainly not that good. I think that the Avs only getting a 2nd round pick for him, put his league-wide value in perspective for him and he chose to re-sign long-term at a discount with the Leafs rather than risk 'Scott Hannan-ing it' in free agency.

Most Leaf fans were happy with Liles before the concussion but absolutely APPAULED with his play after he came back from it. So, do you still want him back or do you only want him back without the concussion??

Speaking of Scott Hannan, is he really super awesome or is there an actual REAL reason why he's one of the last players to sign as a UFA 2 years in a row, signing for WELL BELOW the league average each time? You keep dumping on Zanon (probably without ever having seen him play) and yet you promote this guy? You REALLY need to start paying closer attention.



Unfortunately, Mouse21 is right.

I and and a few others gave an accurate description of what the future held for this kid even before he was drafted.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...77&postcount=1
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...65&postcount=5


I was actually a Nordique's fan WELL before I was an Avs fan. In fact, my Nan used to send me video cassettes of The Nordique's games. I was seven when I watched us (Quebec) win our 1st division title, and I remember it like it was yesterday, so I hope that puts where I stand as a Colorado fan into perspective.

That out of the way, I'll address your other fine tidbits.

Chris Stewart bloomed in the last season he played for us. Came back a little more timid after he broke his hand, but I saw what I saw, and that was a big intimidating presence, that was producing extremely well with Stastny. I can understand why his Dad was so upset that he was traded away.

As for Liles. We need a player like him for MANY reasons on our team. That is, what it is, and if you don't see that, that's your perogative.

Re: Hannan and Zanon.I most certainly have seen Zanon play, do that stone you threw in my direction is misguided. Hannan, well, he played a role for us. He played it well in my view.


Last edited by Frenchy: 09-13-2012 at 07:16 PM. Reason: attack the post , not the poster , even if it's to defend yourself .
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09-13-2012, 08:23 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Hunwick ws serviceable for our team, serving as a decent #7 that infused a puck moving element that we needed when Elliott ran out of steam. Zanon is a decent #6 that will infuse a defensive, shot blocking element onto our team when/if we need it. O'Brien served as a solid #4/5 on the team and O'Byrne is clearly a strong #4 defensive defender that improves our PK significantly. Wilson, when not concussed, provides good #3/4 play.
I have a feeling this is pretty much where Drizzt (I don't mean to speak for you, so if I'm wrong here, I apologize) and I diverge from some members of the group: Hunwick, O'Brien, O'Byrne, and Wilson provide nothing better than average/above-average 3rd pairing play. All of them have distinct skills lacking to be anything more than mediocre as #3/4 guys (BTW, I draw no distinction between a #5 and a #6 defenseman), and they're sometimes worse than that. A lot of people like O'Byrne as a good #4, but I'm not on board with it. He's really both very slow and immobile. Zanon? We'll see, but I have a feeling he's in that same group. He looked good a few years back, but last year he wasn't really all that good on a very good defensive team. I think us rating any of these defensemen as anything higher than average/solid 3rd pairing guys is us being homers, honestly.

IMO, the Avs have exactly two 1st/2nd pairing (or #2/#3/#4, if you will) defensemen on the roster - EJ and Hejda. That's it.

-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 09-13-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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Old
09-13-2012, 08:29 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
As for Liles. We need a player like him for MANY reasons on our team. That is, what it is, and if you don't see that, that's your perogative.
That was simply a salary dump, or the Avs totally overrating the ability for Elliott to adapt to the NHL. Or both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt1 View Post
Re: Hannan and Zanon.I most certainly have seen Zanon play, do that stone you threw in my direction is misguided. Hannan, well, he played a role for us. He played it well in my view.
I was a big fan of the Hannan signing, and thought he played reasonably well (albeit pretty soft) while he was in Colorado. I don't view Zanon as a downgrade from Hannan though. Both were solid 2nd pairing guys at one time, but both look like solid 3rd pairing guys now.

And BTW Drizzt - I do disagree with you on one point, re: Hejda. He was a pile of monkey s**t early last season, no doubt about it. However, over the last 3 months or so of the season, I had no problem at all with his play. He was solid all around, moved well, moved the puck well, and didn't give it away all that much. In fact, I believe he should pair with EJ.

-AB


Last edited by ABasin: 09-13-2012 at 08:39 PM.
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09-14-2012, 02:30 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I have a feeling this is pretty much where Drizzt (I don't mean to speak for you, so if I'm wrong here, I apologize) and I diverge from some members of the group: Hunwick, O'Brien, O'Byrne, and Wilson provide nothing better than average/above-average 3rd pairing play. All of them have distinct skills lacking to be anything more than mediocre as #3/4 guys (BTW, I draw no distinction between a #5 and a #6 defenseman), and they're sometimes worse than that. A lot of people like O'Byrne as a good #4, but I'm not on board with it. He's really both very slow and immobile. Zanon? We'll see, but I have a feeling he's in that same group. He looked good a few years back, but last year he wasn't really all that good on a very good defensive team. I think us rating any of these defensemen as anything higher than average/solid 3rd pairing guys is us being homers, honestly.

IMO, the Avs have exactly two 1st/2nd pairing (or #2/#3/#4, if you will) defensemen on the roster - EJ and Hejda. That's it.

-AB
I agree 100% with this assessment of the situation.

My problems were more with complaints about moves made by a previous management, whining about Hejda and Johnson, silly statements about young players prospects, and an unrealistic view on how fast we should be able to rebuild.

I do believe that losing Quincey and Liles without replacement is a problem in the short term, but neither of those guys were long term solutions for us. I'm confident management will fill those holes in the next couple seasons.

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09-14-2012, 10:25 AM
  #430
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Sooo should we be hearing about RoRs new contract soon? My understanding is all new deals have to be made today

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09-14-2012, 10:45 AM
  #431
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Sooo should we be hearing about RoRs new contract soon? My understanding is all new deals have to be made today
Fingers crossed...but probably not.

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09-14-2012, 11:40 AM
  #432
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Just curious, what did your 2009 list look like?

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09-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #433
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Holy crap Bender that is amazing work on your 2011 draft thread!!! Wow.

Why don't you post more in the prospect palace?

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09-14-2012, 02:12 PM
  #434
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And another one bites the dust...Burrows re-signs in Van.

Makes you really wonder what's going on with O'Reilly and the Avs.

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Alex Burrows' four-year extension with VAN has an AAV of $4.5M.

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09-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by ColAvsFan View Post
Just curious, what did your 2009 list look like?
THP PLAYER TEAM
1 V. Hedman, LD Modo,SEL
2 M. Duchene, C Brampton,OHL
3 J. Tavares, C London,OHL
4 B. Schenn, C Brandon,WHL
5 E. Kane, LW Vancouver,WHL
6 O. E-Larsson, LD Leksands,Swe-1
7 J. Schroeder, C U of Minn., WCHA
8 R. Ellis, RD Windsor,OHL
9 J. Moore, LD Chicago,USHL
10 C-O Roussel, RD Shawinigan,QMJHL
11 O. Roy, G Cape Breton,QMJHL
12 D. Kulikov, LD Drummondville,QMJHL
13 M. Paajarvi, LW Timra IK,SEL
14 J. Cowen, LD Spokane,WHL
15 D. Rundblad, RD Skelleftea HC,SEL
16 T. Rajala, RW Ilves Jrs,Fin.
17 T. Tatar, LW Zvolen,Slovakia
18 L. Leblanc, C Omaha,USHL
19 S. Glennie, C Brandon,WHL
20 J. Morin, RW US NTDP
21 S. Vatanen, RD JYP Jr, Fin.
22 R. Panik, RW Trinec,CZE.
23 C. Kreider, LW Andover H.S.,Mass.
24 R. O’Reilly, C Erie,OHL
25 J. Caron, LW Rimouski,QMJHL
26 D. Shore, C US NTDP
27 Z. Kassian, RW Peterborough,OHL
28 P. Holland, C Guelph,OHL
29 N. Kadri, C London,OHL
30 T. Beck, C Guelph,OHL

Sorry about the formatting...it's kind of messed up.

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09-14-2012, 02:32 PM
  #436
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I really wonder what they are waiting to see in the CBA that's making them wait. I doubt it's the max allowable contract years. They'd just sign him long term now if they wanted to do that.

My guess is the UFA age. Sounds like O'Reilly wants a longer deal, so if the Avs agree to that, they probably want to make sure this deal comes short of, or extends into his UFA years.

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09-14-2012, 03:38 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I really wonder what they are waiting to see in the CBA that's making them wait. I doubt it's the max allowable contract years. They'd just sign him long term now if they wanted to do that.

My guess is the UFA age. Sounds like O'Reilly wants a longer deal, so if the Avs agree to that, they probably want to make sure this deal comes short of, or extends into his UFA years.
And I think it's the Kroenkes trying to save every penny possible right now.

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09-14-2012, 03:51 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
THP PLAYER TEAM
1 V. Hedman, LD Modo,SEL
2 M. Duchene, C Brampton,OHL
3 J. Tavares, C London,OHL
4 B. Schenn, C Brandon,WHL
5 E. Kane, LW Vancouver,WHL
6 O. E-Larsson, LD Leksands,Swe-1
7 J. Schroeder, C U of Minn., WCHA
8 R. Ellis, RD Windsor,OHL
9 J. Moore, LD Chicago,USHL
10 C-O Roussel, RD Shawinigan,QMJHL
11 O. Roy, G Cape Breton,QMJHL
12 D. Kulikov, LD Drummondville,QMJHL
13 M. Paajarvi, LW Timra IK,SEL
14 J. Cowen, LD Spokane,WHL
15 D. Rundblad, RD Skelleftea HC,SEL
16 T. Rajala, RW Ilves Jrs,Fin.
17 T. Tatar, LW Zvolen,Slovakia
18 L. Leblanc, C Omaha,USHL
19 S. Glennie, C Brandon,WHL
20 J. Morin, RW US NTDP
21 S. Vatanen, RD JYP Jr, Fin.
22 R. Panik, RW Trinec,CZE.
23 C. Kreider, LW Andover H.S.,Mass.
24 R. O’Reilly, C Erie,OHL
25 J. Caron, LW Rimouski,QMJHL
26 D. Shore, C US NTDP
27 Z. Kassian, RW Peterborough,OHL
28 P. Holland, C Guelph,OHL
29 N. Kadri, C London,OHL
30 T. Beck, C Guelph,OHL

Sorry about the formatting...it's kind of messed up.
Yikes! You and I did not see eye to eye on Kulikov or Kane. Good times. Always fun to see how you rank players and where they are now. RoR I am sure would be a lot higher on your, mine and likely everyone else's list.

Word is still out on a lot of these guys tho.

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And I think it's the Kroenkes trying to save every penny possible right now.
If Kroenke ship out a player like RoR just to save money then that would be moronic and an indication that the owner isn't willing to spend on the team.

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09-14-2012, 03:52 PM
  #439
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And I think it's the Kroenkes trying to save every penny possible right now.
I believe pinching as many pennies as possible is still a big part of how the team is run at this point in their rebuild, but I don't know if it saves them any money to wait until the CBA is done to sign O'Reilly. They get paid the pro-rated amount.

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09-14-2012, 03:58 PM
  #440
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Canuck fans were all excited thinking they were getting Doan and then this happened.....

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Shane Doan has signed a 4-year $21.2 million contract with $2 million in bonus money to remain with the Phoenix Coyotes.
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Doan agent Terry Bross confirms that Shane Doan has signed the contract with Phoenix and it has been sent to the NHL offices in New York

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09-14-2012, 04:37 PM
  #441
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Canuck fans were all excited thinking they were getting Doan and then this happened.....
Haha, I love it when the Nucks think everything good is gonna fall in their lap, and then it doesn't.

Got to hand it to Doan for his loyalty, although I don't really get what he's thinking. Gives Phoenix all summer to work things out, and turns down a four year $30M+ deal ($7.5M+ per). Then signs a four year $21.2M deal ($5.3M per) when it sounds like Jamison still hasn't been able to finalize the arena deal, that he needs to buy the team.

He'd rather live in the desert, and play for a franchise that has one playoff series win in 25 years, turning down $9-10M in the process?

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09-14-2012, 05:47 PM
  #442
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Haha, I love it when the Nucks think everything good is gonna fall in their lap, and then it doesn't.

Got to hand it to Doan for his loyalty, although I don't really get what he's thinking. Gives Phoenix all summer to work things out, and turns down a four year $30M+ deal ($7.5M+ per). Then signs a four year $21.2M deal ($5.3M per) when it sounds like Jamison still hasn't been able to finalize the arena deal, that he needs to buy the team.

He'd rather live in the desert, and play for a franchise that has one playoff series win in 25 years, turning down $9-10M in the process?
Moving your family (or being away from them) is a really big decision. Pretty sure I would have made the same choice in his shoes.

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09-14-2012, 08:01 PM
  #443
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Doan has a big ranch in Arizona. He seems to be really happy where he is. If he wanted to go somewhere else, he would have signed in July.

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09-14-2012, 08:25 PM
  #444
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Moving your family (or being away from them) is a really big decision. Pretty sure I would have made the same choice in his shoes.
You sure you'd turn down $9-10 million and a better chance to win the cup? Families move all the time for much less.

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Doan has a big ranch in Arizona. He seems to be really happy where he is. If he wanted to go somewhere else, he would have signed in July.
He obviously didn't want to sign anywhere else, and more power to him if that's how he feels. I just have a feeling he'll retire without a cup now, though I could be wrong.

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09-14-2012, 08:28 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Uhh...WHAT??

Why are you putting forward lines when analyzing which team has the better Defensive corps?

This isn't about POINTS! It's about stopping the opposition, plain and simple. Which GROUP has the best chance (or worse chance in this case) of doing that. And you're putting up the forward lines of the Islanders and Mark Frikkin' Streit??? The guy is BRUTAL defensively but yeah, on the PP he's dynamite. Again, not what we're talking about here.



http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...77&postcount=1
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...65&postcount=5
Forgetting a key point aren't you?
Streit missed all of the 2010-2011 season, after having major shoulder surgery.

He was rusty and just plain awful in 2011-2012, until around the 2012 trade deadline, when he finally shook off the rust and looked like the Streit of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010.

2008-09 56 pts + 6
2009-10 49 pts even +/-
2011-2012 47 pts -27

There's a reason that the Isles quickly shot down the Oilers, when they inquired about Streit this summer. Isles have no interest in moving him.

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09-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
You sure you'd turn down $9-10 million and a better chance to win the cup? Families move all the time for much less.



He obviously didn't want to sign anywhere else, and more power to him if that's how he feels. I just have a feeling he'll retire without a cup now, though I could be wrong.

I would move for $10 million, but then again I make a small fraction of that.

If I was Shane Doan being offered a 21.5 million contract to stay where I am on my ranch where my kids are settled into school I would just stay put. By staying Doan is clearly saying that that's more important to him than winning the cup and I'm not sure that I disagree.

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09-14-2012, 09:32 PM
  #447
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Forgetting a key point aren't you?
Streit missed all of the 2010-2011 season, after having major shoulder surgery.

He was rusty and just plain awful in 2011-2012, until around the 2012 trade deadline, when he finally shook off the rust and looked like the Streit of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010.

2008-09 56 pts + 6
2009-10 49 pts even +/-
2011-2012 47 pts -27

There's a reason that the Isles quickly shot down the Oilers, when they inquired about Streit this summer. Isles have no interest in moving him.
How exactly do those stats or your anecdotal evidence demonstrate that Streit is defensively strong?
Not agreeing or disagreeing with you since I don't watch the Isles but that's not much of a case

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09-14-2012, 10:15 PM
  #448
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Forgetting a key point aren't you?
Streit missed all of the 2010-2011 season, after having major shoulder surgery.

He was rusty and just plain awful in 2011-2012, until around the 2012 trade deadline, when he finally shook off the rust and looked like the Streit of 2008-2009 and 2009-2010.

2008-09 56 pts + 6
2009-10 49 pts even +/-
2011-2012 47 pts -27

There's a reason that the Isles quickly shot down the Oilers, when they inquired about Streit this summer. Isles have no interest in moving him.
Do you seriously scan all threads looking for people that might mention someone from the Islanders???

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09-14-2012, 11:46 PM
  #449
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So for those of you discussing prospect lists previously, how do you get access to see them live to make informed decisions?

I've never really been able to nail down a solid schedule around prospects to view them on tv, they're not on the channels I have usually.

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09-15-2012, 12:03 AM
  #450
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Thanks for the opinion's guys. In a weird kind of way, I was almost hoping to be convinced otherwise regarding our defense, but it has almost solidified my opinion on it.

We have made some gross mistakes drafting, trading & otherwise in defense, to be where we are now to be honest. I honestly think it will take some time to weed ourselves out of where we are at present.

+ Releasing Liles for a bag of pucks is a mistake. I'm sorry.
+ I wouldn't trade Shattenkirk for Johnson straight up.
+ Leopold for Nycholat/Wilson/2nd after what we gave up to get him was a mistake.
+ I have no doubts Stewart would have excelled if he remained with us
+ We still could have acquired O'Brien
+ The trade for Hunwick was terrible, and I thought Cohen showed plenty when give an opportunity
+ Should have kept Hannan - we gave him away for nothing considering where Flash is now

Look, I know all these types of things are hindsight (and I know reasons, like Leopold always being injured) etc.

I also understand we wouldn't have Siemens coming though, and we would have drafted at different times, but I still believe we may have had a chance for Douggie Hamilton, or Adam Larsson or something if some of the above didn't happen. Who know's? Opportunities often present.

If I'm Sydney Crosby, flying in to Denver to play Colorado, and I know one of maybe Zanon or Hunwick will be paired with Johnson to play against me, and Avs then have a support cast of O'Brien, Wilson, O'Byrne and Hejda, I'm licking my lips, and playing VERY confidently.

How that helps our young guys develop into the stars most of you are telling me they will, is beyond me.

People may argue there are three or four worse defenses as listed above than ours. I don't think of that as a compliment to our defense. It's supporting my theory that we have a below average defensive unit, opposition offenses will look forward to playing against.

That then makes me feel for Varlamov and Giguere, who deserve much better, as they have quality written all over them.
While I definitely agree they missed Liles' offense last year, I don't think you can classify his return as a bag of pucks. That 2nd round pick was used in the Varly trade, and if they had traded their own pick instead, there's a very good chance they still would have picked up Heard 13 picks back.

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