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Old
09-14-2012, 04:37 PM
  #26
Suddenly7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Grabner in 174 nhl games, has scored a total of 59 goals.
Cogliano in 410 nhl games, has scored a total of 70 goals.
You wildly overrate Cogs scoring ability.

And I'm not interested in seeing Snow make trades because his prospect is not nhl ready at 18 or 19. What a shortsighted way to build a roster.
Don't know why you are comparing Cogliano to Grabner when this deal proposal is with Bobby Ryan.

Bobby Ryan: 332 NHL Games 136 goals 123 assist 259 points 4 season

Michael Grabner 174 NHL Games 59 goals 36 assist 95 points. 3 seasons.

Ryan since coming into the league has scored 30 goals every season. He has reached above 50 points and has rarely missed any games due to injury. Ryan is the better player in this discussion and has proven to it every season. I'm sure Grabner is a great player but he isn't close to Bobby Ryan. Anaheim has players coming up in the system that will help the second and third line at wing.

There isn't a need in getting Reinhart for the fact that our defensemen prospect have as much upside as Reinhart. Again no need for Anaheim to trade.

I would look this trade over and think about a center or prospect center that NYI are willing to trade because that is our biggest need at the moment.

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Old
09-14-2012, 04:48 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Suddenly7 View Post
Don't know why you are comparing Cogliano to Grabner when this deal proposal is with Bobby Ryan.

Bobby Ryan: 332 NHL Games 136 goals 123 assist 259 points 4 season

Michael Grabner 174 NHL Games 59 goals 36 assist 95 points. 3 seasons.

Ryan since coming into the league has scored 30 goals every season. He has reached above 50 points and has rarely missed any games due to injury. Ryan is the better player in this discussion and has proven to it every season. I'm sure Grabner is a great player but he isn't close to Bobby Ryan. Anaheim has players coming up in the system that will help the second and third line at wing.

There isn't a need in getting Reinhart for the fact that our defensemen prospect have as much upside as Reinhart. Again no need for Anaheim to trade.

I would look this trade over and think about a center or prospect center that NYI are willing to trade because that is our biggest need at the moment.
airforceones25 called Grabner a one hit wonder, saying he's Andrew Cogliano 2.0.
Andrew Cogliano's never shown the scoring ability at the nhl level that Grabner has shown.

Grabner's goal scoring ability and his pk work are really being underrated in this thread.

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Old
09-14-2012, 06:04 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
airforceones25 called Grabner a one hit wonder, saying he's Andrew Cogliano 2.0.
Andrew Cogliano's never shown the scoring ability at the nhl level that Grabner has shown.

Grabner's goal scoring ability and his pk work are really being underrated in this thread.
I think what airforce was referring to was Cogliano's ability to play a sound pk/defensive forward role along with tremendous speed and work ethic. I don't think he was comparing their offensive skills. Cogliano is a quality Pk-er/defensive forward who chips in a fair amount of points for a 3rd line forward and with his speed, creates good opportunities on the ice. He's also one of the hardest workers out there. The problem is, he's small (which makes him not fit well as a bottom 6 forward), can't finish well (which kills his chances as a top 6 forward), and has not lived up to the offensive ability he was once thought to have (which causes him to be underrated/undervalued).

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Old
09-14-2012, 06:10 PM
  #29
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Our biggest need is still a 2nd line center unless Strome is ready (which I've heard he's not).

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Old
09-14-2012, 06:21 PM
  #30
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I would look this trade over and think about a center or prospect center that NYI are willing to trade because that is our biggest need at the moment.
As much as I'd need multiple trips to the laundromat seing Tavares & Ryan on the same line, you just hit the nail on the head as to why an Isles-Ducks swap is hard to eke out.

The Ducks need a center - this is known. The Islanders centers and center prospects include Tavares, Bailey (if converted back to C from LW), Cizikas, Nielsen, Strome, Nelson, Lee (I think), Ullstrom and a few others less shiny. The only *currently* proven NHLers here are Tavares & Nielsen, as Bailey's had some ups & downs. Unless the Isles were willing to give up Strome, there's not a lot as center that tips the scales. Since the Ducks aren't thinking of blowing up the roster for younger players, Strome isn't the most interesting piece in a trade, despite his high probablility at being an upper mid/high end #2C/#1RW.

I want Ryan on the Island....badly. BUT the only possible huge trade going down between these two teams (IMO) is one involving the Isles' #1 pick next year. If the Islanders do well (if there's a season at all), they have pieces to try moving up into the top echelon of the draft. If the Isles implode again, MacKinnon could be top notch compensation.

I'd almost consider putting that pick in play if I were Garth Snow. It's a valued pick that is only really made trade-ready due to the fact that he hasn't taken anyone with it yet - Snow hasn't traded an NHL-untested prospect since he got Ryan Smyth.


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Old
09-14-2012, 06:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
airforceones25 called Grabner a one hit wonder, saying he's Andrew Cogliano 2.0.
Andrew Cogliano's never shown the scoring ability at the nhl level that Grabner has shown.

Grabner's goal scoring ability and his pk work are really being underrated in this thread.
LMAO... So I apologize about not fully stating my beliefs and you still try and take them out of context.

I said his season was a 1 hit wonder. I didn't say Grabner was a 1 trick pony. That's a BIG difference. Your argument then stemmed off the fact the Grabner is a great PK player do to his speed mismatch. I just pointed out the same for Cogliano. I'm not comparing their offensive abilities. All i'm stating is it of my belief Grabner is much more of a 30 pt player who's speed can be used in situational positions as opposed the 50 point campaign he had 2 years ago.

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Old
09-14-2012, 07:15 PM
  #32
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All i'm stating is it of my belief Grabner is much more of a 30 pt player who's speed can be used in situational positions as opposed the 50 point campaign he had 2 years ago.
That *could* be the case, but Grabner did start the season with a pulled groin. SInce speed is his primary weapon, it absolutely played havoc on his scoring pace.

The jury's still out, but many of us see him as 30-goals-per-year capable on the right line (or just with the right center, being Mr. defenseman-that-takes-faceoffs Frans Nielsen) that can play smart defense and allow hmi to get the separation from defensemen he needs to score.

I'd willingly wait for a 3rd season from him to see whether or not he's a poor man's Pavel Bure or if he'll be yet another overpaid 3rd liner in a season or two.

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Old
09-14-2012, 07:20 PM
  #33
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Can't see NYI including Reinhart in a deal so soon after drafting him despite a player of Ryan's caliber coming back.

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Old
09-14-2012, 07:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by airforceones25 View Post
LMAO... So I apologize about not fully stating my beliefs and you still try and take them out of context.

I said his season was a 1 hit wonder. I didn't say Grabner was a 1 trick pony. That's a BIG difference. Your argument then stemmed off the fact the Grabner is a great PK player do to his speed mismatch. I just pointed out the same for Cogliano. I'm not comparing their offensive abilities. All i'm stating is it of my belief Grabner is much more of a 30 pt player who's speed can be used in situational positions as opposed the 50 point campaign he had 2 years ago.
I'm not taking it ut of context.

You are the one who called Grabner Cogs 2.0, bought up the comparison. Which I think is a stretch.
How do you ignore Grabner's goal scoring, while comparing him to Cogs? Isles have Grabner for his goal scoring.In 174 games, Grabners scored about 11 less goals then Cogs has in 410 games. So, while they are both good pk players, Cogs does not come close to matching Grabner's goal scoring ability.

Your belief is that Grabner's a 30 pt player, mine is that he's scored 54 goals over the last two seasons and the isles value him more then fans do.

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Old
09-14-2012, 07:42 PM
  #35
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Can't see NYI including Reinhart in a deal so soon after drafting him despite a player of Ryan's caliber coming back.
Especially when the proposal includes a 1st round pick in a possible lockout year. If the season is a washout we don't know how the draft would be conducted. With Nathan MacKinnon and Seth Jones out there it would be even more foolish than giving up our 2nd rounder for Lubo who will be a UFA. If its a season long lockout we basically gave a valuable asset away for Lubo without getting a game played in return.


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Old
09-14-2012, 09:15 PM
  #36
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Islanders get hosed big time.

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Old
09-14-2012, 09:37 PM
  #37
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Pretty fair BUT everyone knows Ryan will take first train outta there soon as he hits Ufa.
I agree. I like the value but it would be devastating if Ryan hit the road.

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Old
09-14-2012, 11:22 PM
  #38
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I don't think I'd trade Ryan alone for that, nevermind adding Sbisa.

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Old
09-15-2012, 01:57 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I'm not taking it ut of context.

You are the one who called Grabner Cogs 2.0, bought up the comparison. Which I think is a stretch.
How do you ignore Grabner's goal scoring, while comparing him to Cogs? Isles have Grabner for his goal scoring.In 174 games, Grabners scored about 11 less goals then Cogs has in 410 games. So, while they are both good pk players, Cogs does not come close to matching Grabner's goal scoring ability.

Your belief is that Grabner's a 30 pt player, mine is that he's scored 54 goals over the last two seasons and the isles value him more then fans do.
In his first two full seasons Cogliano played 164 games and had 36G 47A 83P.
Grabner in his first two full seasons played 154 games and had 54G 30A 84P. He scored 2 more goals than Cogliano in their sophomore seasons.

How about we see which career path Grabner follows before making big comparisons.

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Old
09-15-2012, 02:06 AM
  #40
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I agree. I like the value but it would be devastating if Ryan hit the road.
Poor Bobby - living in NYC, greatly reducing the required travel getting to play in a scoring line with Tavares and Moulson and be a key piece in a young budding team.

...okay, he'll still play 41 games in a dump. But lots of other players have dealt with that.

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Old
09-15-2012, 06:31 AM
  #41
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Poor Bobby - living in NYC, greatly reducing the required travel getting to play in a scoring line with Tavares and Moulson and be a key piece in a young budding team.

...okay, he'll still play 41 games in a dump. But lots of other players have dealt with that.
You know it's not like he is playing with proven players and stanley cup winner in Perry and Getzlaf. While having being a part of a young time that will become a contender soon. He can go to NYI and do what the Islanders do best. Miss the playoffs.

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Old
09-15-2012, 06:43 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
In his first two full seasons Cogliano played 164 games and had 36G 47A 83P.
Grabner in his first two full seasons played 154 games and had 54G 30A 84P. He scored 2 more goals than Cogliano in their sophomore seasons.

How about we see which career path Grabner follows before making big comparisons.
What? Grabner's getting more then 174 regular season games, before fans decide he's peaked as a player?

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Old
09-15-2012, 06:43 AM
  #43
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You know it's not like he is playing with proven players and stanley cup winner in Perry and Getzlaf. While having being a part of a young time that will become a contender soon. He can go to NYI and do what the Islanders do best. Miss the playoffs.
He wasn't insulting Anaheim. There's no need to get pissy.

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09-15-2012, 03:26 PM
  #44
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Pretty fair BUT everyone knows Ryan will take first train outta there soon as he hits Ufa.
I didn't know you posted on here Bobby, can you follow me on twitter while you're here mate? Cheers

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09-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #45
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Way too much risk to make it worth giving up on Ryan and Sbisa. I'm not even sure about the value either.
The value is bad...but for the Isles. Ducks get a top 5 pick, one of the top defense prospects in the league, a second liner with 35 goal potential that kills penalties, and a future top 6 forward. Isles say no thanks

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09-16-2012, 04:48 PM
  #46
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The value is bad...but for the Isles. Ducks get a top 5 pick, one of the top defense prospects in the league, a second liner with 35 goal potential that kills penalties, and a future top 6 forward. Isles say no thanks
Too much risk. Whatever, I think the value is suspect for Anaheim.

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09-16-2012, 08:39 PM
  #47
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Not bad for an HFBoards Trade Proposal, but I still wouldn't do it as a Ducks fan...

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09-17-2012, 08:47 AM
  #48
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The value is bad...but for the Isles. Ducks get a top 5 pick, one of the top defense prospects in the league, a second liner with 35 goal potential that kills penalties, and a future top 6 forward. Isles say no thanks

So the Islanders +Ryan/Sbisa, and -Grabner are a bottom-5 team?

You understand that Grabner is basically a 3rd liner on this team, right? Especially with Ryan added to the roster, you have Moulson, Ryan, Bailey and Okposo all ahead of him. He's a good player, but definitely tradeable considering his role with the team.

Tavares, Strome, Nielsen, Cizikas: That's why Nelson being a part of this deal shouldn't be an issue. He's a good prospect, arguably very good, but he doesn't have a future here as a center. That makes him trade bait, IMO.

Reinhart is a great prospect, yes, but this team still has deHaan and Donovan knocking on the NHL door, as well as guys like Mayfield, Pokka, Pedan, Kichton, Ness, Pelech, Russo, etc. With Hamonic, MacDonald and now Sbisa, that leaves 3 open spots. Two if you assume Streit will be re-signed, which I expect him to. Chances are either one of Donovan or deHaan solidify themselves as a part of this team's defense this season. That basically leaves one open spot to be taken by one of the rest of that group(as well as one of deHaan/Donovan, whoever was the odd man out prior). That's only if the team doesn't end up liking Carkner, which may not even happen.

That leaves the 1st round pick, which I'd be shocked to see it end up being in the top-5(again, taking into account the players coming back in this trade, not to mention Visnovsky being added as well as the natural progression of our young players). I'd expect it to be somewhere in the middle of the 1st round. Maybe a little closer to 20, maybe a little closer to 10. I highly doubt it ends up being under pick-10, much less pick-5.

IMO, Reinhart is the only piece to lose sleep over in this deal. We simply don't have that kind of upside from any other defense prospect. We would still have a lot of them... enough to build a solid blue-line, but we lose that potential franchise player. Outside of that, I really wouldn't think twice about trading any of these other 3 pieces in this deal. Considering we'd be completing what should be one of, if not the most dangerous 1st line in hockey(Moulson-Tavares-Ryan), as well as completing what should be a very reliable 1st or 2nd pairing(Streit-Sbisa), I think this would be a no-brainer for the Isles. Even moreso when you consider that both of these guys are locked up for the next 3 seasons.

You have to exit rebuild mode at some point... and you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet(C.K.).

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09-17-2012, 10:20 AM
  #49
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So the Islanders +Ryan/Sbisa, and -Grabner are a bottom-5 team?

You understand that Grabner is basically a 3rd liner on this team, right? Especially with Ryan added to the roster, you have Moulson, Ryan, Bailey and Okposo all ahead of him. He's a good player, but definitely tradeable considering his role with the team.


Bailey's a 9th overall pick and Grabner was a 14th overall pick. Bailey's most productive goal scoring season, he scored 17 goals. In Grabner's least productive goal scoring season, he scored 20 goals. A case can be made, that Grabner's accomplished more, proven more then Bailey.
Other then then the Isles wanting to give Bailey a long look at lw, with more skilled players, I don't know how we can say Bailey's now a 2nd liner and Grabner a 3rd liner.

Moulson's a ufa in 2013-2014. Is he signing a 2nd, cheap deal with the NYI ? I have my doubts. He's a new husband and father. He'll be looking for a big contract,to provide security for him and his family. No more team friendly deals imo. Grabner's development, his ability to play more consistently, make ease the loss of Moulson in July 2014.


Quote:
Tavares, Strome, Nielsen, Cizikas: That's why Nelson being a part of this deal shouldn't be an issue. He's a good prospect, arguably very good, but he doesn't have a future here as a center. That makes him trade bait, IMO.
Those centers are 5'11-6'0. No size down the middle. The 6'4 Brock Nelson could very well be Frans Nielsen's eventual replacement, if the isles want to add size at the center spot.

Quote:
Reinhart is a great prospect, yes, but this team still has deHaan and Donovan knocking on the NHL door, as well as guys like Mayfield, Pokka, Pedan, Kichton, Ness, Pelech, Russo, etc.
None of those prospects have the upside that Reinhart does.

Quote:
With Hamonic, MacDonald and now Sbisa, that leaves 3 open spots.

I love Hamonic, but I question if even this fan favorite has the potential that Reinhart does.
.

Quote:
That leaves the 1st round pick, which I'd be shocked to see it end up being in the top-5(again, taking into account the players coming back in this trade, not to mention Visnovsky being added as well as the natural progression of our young players). I'd expect it to be somewhere in the middle of the 1st round. Maybe a little closer to 20, maybe a little closer to 10. I highly doubt it ends up being under pick-10, much less pick-5.
The league's in a lockout. We can say we hope it doesn't last all season, but it well could. If we get another weighted lottery, based on 2005 weighted lottery, the isles will likely be picking somewhere in the top 5. McKinnon/Jones territory.
Isles 1st should not be on the table, unless 2012-2013 games have been played and the isles are somewhere in the thick of the playoff race.


Quote:
You have to exit rebuild mode at some point...
I agree. I just disagree that this overpayment, is the move to make.


Last edited by CREW99AW: 09-17-2012 at 10:27 AM.
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Old
09-17-2012, 12:54 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Bailey's a 9th overall pick and Grabner was a 14th overall pick. Bailey's most productive goal scoring season, he scored 17 goals. In Grabner's least productive goal scoring season, he scored 20 goals. A case can be made, that Grabner's accomplished more, proven more then Bailey.
Other then then the Isles wanting to give Bailey a long look at lw, with more skilled players, I don't know how we can say Bailey's now a 2nd liner and Grabner a 3rd liner.
I think it comes down to, if you have to include a roster player in this deal, one that another team would actually want, Grabner would be the guy I could live with losing the most. He has more value than Bailey to this point, yet Bailey's play at the end of the year as well as his chemistry shown with Okposo makes me think that he's a better fit on that 2nd line than Grabner. Both JB and KO play better when they are together. That leaves Grabner on the 3rd line with Nielsen, in a spot that I think Ullstrom could take over and not miss a beat.

My including him in this proposal isn't a knock on him, I'd love to keep him, but if we had to include a young, NHL forward with value, he'd be my choice 10/10 times.

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Moulson's a ufa in 2013-2014. Is he signing a 2nd, cheap deal with the NYI ? I have my doubts. He's a new husband and father. He'll be looking for a big contract,to provide security for him and his family. No more team friendly deals imo. Grabner's development, his ability to play more consistently, make ease the loss of Moulson in July 2014.
I don't really see the relevance here. Moulson doesn't hit UFA until after guys like Reasoner, Boyes, Visnovsky and Nabokov come off the books. All of these players will most likely be replaced by prospects on entry level deals(Cizikas, Strome, deHaan/Donovan, Poulin/Nilsson, respectively). Moulson is currently making $3.9M. His new contract will probably net him in the $5M range, especially if it's a 4+ year deal. That's a $1.1M yearly increase. Not exactly breaking the bank, especially if said players are replaced from within the organization.


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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Those centers are 5'11-6'0. No size down the middle. The 6'4 Brock Nelson could very well be Frans Nielsen's eventual replacement, if the isles want to add size at the center spot.
I don't see how their sizes should affect any decision. Tavares is obvious. Strome(assuming he doesn't switch to Tavares' wing) was drafted to be a top-6 player for this team. As long as he pans out, he'll be the 2nd-line center. Nielsen is arguably one of the best 3rd-line centers in the league. I don't see the Isles' letting him go anytime soon, considering he's locked up for 4 more years. Cizikas has already shown that he's more than capable of being an effective 4th line center.

Barring some kind of terrible injury or a move to wing, I just don't see Nelson's future with this team. So we could keep him hanging around until someone gets hurt or until Nielsen walks as a UFA 4 years from now, or we can take advantage of an area of excess and upgrade other areas of the team.


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None of those prospects have the upside that Reinhart does.
I actually said that in my last post. Doesn't mean you don't trade him if the right deal comes along.


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I love Hamonic, but I question if even this fan favorite has the potential that Reinhart does.
He might not have the potential, but I question whether or not Reinhart will ever even reach Hamonic's current level. It goes both ways. I know futures are pretty much always looked at from a best case scenario viewpoint, but more often than not they don't always turn out as planned. Not to say they bust, but more often than not they fall short of their ceiling.

Reinhart could turn into the next Pronger, but he also could turn into the next Ty Wishart. Only time will tell. That said, if he's ultimately the reason why you turn this deal down, you better be pretty confident that he'll end up somewhere closer to the former than he does the ladder.


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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
The league's in a lockout. We can say we hope it doesn't last all season, but it well could. If we get another weighted lottery, based on 2005 weighted lottery, the isles will likely be picking somewhere in the top 5. McKinnon/Jones territory.
Isles 1st should not be on the table, unless 2012-2013 games have been played and the isles are somewhere in the thick of the playoff race.
I assumed everyone realized this was a proposal made under the assumption that games would be played this year, considering I don't even know if trades can be made during a lockout. If they can, then yes, I'd hold off until the lockout was over to see where we end up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I agree. I just disagree that this overpayment, is the move to make.
I just don't see it being overpayment considering the proven talent coming back, and considering the depth we have-prospect wise-throughout this organization.

If a move like this would bleed us dry, then I'd agree that we should hold off. But considering how strong we'd still be(counting the young talent already at the NHL level), I just don't see how this could end up hurting us in the long run.

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