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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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Old
09-14-2012, 09:00 AM
  #626
NitHeel
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Because he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn ++ for Weber, not Couturier for Weber.
Can we pin this? I'm a Flyers fan and even I'm getting sick of hearing about Couturier for Weber straight up.

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Old
09-14-2012, 09:02 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
If this is a reliable source, then all of this is for nothing. How reliable is Sam Carchidi when it comes to Flyer stuff?
He's as reliable as any other beat writer, no better, no worse. He was quite emphatic about this.

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09-14-2012, 09:07 AM
  #628
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
It's completely different refusing to trade both Schenn and Couturier and add to that than refusing to trade Couturier for Weber. One significantly hurts your teams depth, the other trades Couturier and maybe one forward, and a d-man and maybe some picks for the best d-man in the world. If Holmgren could have gotten Weber for Couturier, Read, d-man & a 1 round pick, you think he wouldn't have done it?
Of course he would have done it otherwise the Flyers fan would have killed him. The point I was trying to make is if Holmgren was unwilling to part with Couturier and Schenn as part of a deal to get Weber, why would he be willing trade Couturier as part of a package to get Subban. I'm sorry but Subban is no where near a Shea Weber and the fact I can't stand him in the first place. To me his attitude sucks ever since his days of junior in Belleville. To me Couturier is more of a complete package then Schenn, so if Holmgren traded Schenn for a defenseman then so be it. I can see Couturier ending up as the 2nd line centre behind Giroux in the future.

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09-14-2012, 09:23 AM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Pelle31 View Post
Of course he would have done it otherwise the Flyers fan would have killed him. The point I was trying to make is if Holmgren was unwilling to part with Couturier and Schenn as part of a deal to get Weber, why would he be willing trade Couturier as part of a package to get Subban. I'm sorry but Subban is no where near a Shea Weber and the fact I can't stand him in the first place. To me his attitude sucks ever since his days of junior in Belleville. To me Couturier is more of a complete package then Schenn, so if Holmgren traded Schenn for a defenseman then so be it. I can see Couturier ending up as the 2nd line centre behind Giroux in the future.
So wait, he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn together, so that means he's not going to trade either them alone for anybody else?

As much as I love both of them, neither of them are going to return the type of d-man that people want. They aren't going to return a Doughty/Pietrangelo. They don't have that value. That's why it might be better to hold onto them than trade them ATM, because to get those players (although neither will be traded anyway), you'd have to add ridiculously to one of them and then it's not worth it anymore. But there are many players I'd trade both of them for.

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09-14-2012, 09:42 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
So wait, he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn together, so that means he's not going to trade either them alone for anybody else?

As much as I love both of them, neither of them are going to return the type of d-man that people want. They aren't going to return a Doughty/Pietrangelo. They don't have that value. That's why it might be better to hold onto them than trade them ATM, because to get those players (although neither will be traded anyway), you'd have to add ridiculously to one of them and then it's not worth it anymore. But there are many players I'd trade both of them for.
No one returns Doughtys/Pietrangelos. Essentially no team in the league is willing to give up a top 20 d-man in the league (while being under 25 years old). So I don't take it as a strike against Schenn/Couturier as those kind of players are nearly impossible to get.

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09-14-2012, 09:56 AM
  #631
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
No one returns Doughtys/Pietrangelos. Essentially no team in the league is willing to give up a top 20 d-man in the league (while being under 25 years old). So I don't take it as a strike against Schenn/Couturier as those kind of players are nearly impossible to get.
I see all the time "I wouldn't trade him for Subban, but I'd trade him Pietrangelo/Doughty" or "The only d-man I'd trade him is Pietrangelo/Doughty". That's what I'm referring to. They don't have nearly that value and personally I don't think they ever will.

Those type of d-men aren't traded. Which is why every time someone says "Holmgren wouldn't trade Couturier for Weber" it's gets a tad more ridiculous.

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09-14-2012, 11:06 AM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
So wait, he refused to trade Couturier and Schenn together, so that means he's not going to trade either them alone for anybody else?

As much as I love both of them, neither of them are going to return the type of d-man that people want.
They aren't going to return a Doughty/Pietrangelo. They don't have that value. That's why it might be better to hold onto them than trade them ATM, because to get those players (although neither will be traded anyway), you'd have to add ridiculously to one of them and then it's not worth it anymore. But there are many players I'd trade both of them for.

Is anybody expecting or asking for that though? It's a stupid thing to say you want those guys for Couturier, but I'm not sure that anyone's has come right out and said that those would be fair trades and that they'd like to see them happen. They've just said that's what it would take for them to trade him...it's basically the long way around to saying that it would take a prohibitive over payment to get him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
It's completely different refusing to trade both Schenn and Couturier and add to that than refusing to trade Couturier for Weber. One significantly hurts your teams depth, the other trades Couturier and maybe one forward, and a d-man and maybe some picks for the best d-man in the world. If Holmgren could have gotten Weber for Couturier, Read, d-man & a 1 round pick, you think he wouldn't have done it?
That would've been a bad deal for one year of Weber, especially if the d-man was of significant value.

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09-14-2012, 11:52 AM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Is anybody expecting or asking for that though? It's a stupid thing to say you want those guys for Couturier, but I'm not sure that anyone's has come right out and said that those would be fair trades and that they'd like to see them happen. They've just said that's what it would take for them to trade him...it's basically the long way around to saying that it would take a prohibitive over payment to get him.
No, it's just idiotic to say things like that. Pietrangelo is a franchise defensemen. He is the best player on the Blues. Couturier's value isn't in the same hemisphere as him. You know why? Because Pietrangelo's value to his team is like Giroux's to the Flyer's. To think that's the overpayment that would take to get him is overvaluing him. There's probably at least 1 player on every team that I'd trade Couturier for.

Quote:
That would've been a bad deal for one year of Weber, especially if the d-man was of significant value.
Well Weber already proved he would sign in Philly, so it wouldn't be for one year of Weber, obviously.

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Old
09-14-2012, 02:01 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
He was being sarcastic. Look at the post he was quoting.
My sarcasm detector was off...sometimes I guess the is needed!

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Old
09-14-2012, 11:29 PM
  #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
No, it's just idiotic to say things like that. Pietrangelo is a franchise defensemen. He is the best player on the Blues. Couturier's value isn't in the same hemisphere as him. You know why? Because Pietrangelo's value to his team is like Giroux's to the Flyer's. To think that's the overpayment that would take to get him is overvaluing him. There's probably at least 1 player on every team that I'd trade Couturier for.



Well Weber already proved he would sign in Philly, so it wouldn't be for one year of Weber, obviously.
I hear what you're saying and it's true. I guess what I'm saying is that when people offer up exaggerated opinions like that, it's just their way of hyperbole for the sake of emphasis. Nobody actually thinks that dumb ****.

It wouldn't be a slam-dunk deal for Weber even if you thought he was going to resign.

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Old
09-14-2012, 11:47 PM
  #636
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The Flyers certainly have the pieces to get Subban, I just can't see them parting with them.


"Theoretically", let's say Couturier has a breakout year and pushes Schenn down the depth chart (Doubt it, but you never know)

would something like this make sense?

B. Schenn+ L. Schenn

for

PK Subban+Lars Eller


I don't watch enough of either team so please don't get mad.
Just correct/edit my suggestion.

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Old
09-14-2012, 11:54 PM
  #637
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I honestly don't see why the Habs should make any trades at this point in time. In about 3-4 years, their team will have skill and depth at every position. With Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Eller-DD down the middle, they have no need to acquire another centre, imo.

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09-14-2012, 11:54 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by hockeywoot View Post
The Flyers certainly have the pieces to get Subban, I just can't see them parting with them.


"Theoretically", let's say Couturier has a breakout year and pushes Schenn down the depth chart (Doubt it, but you never know)

would something like this make sense?

B. Schenn+ L. Schenn

for

PK Subban+Lars Eller


I don't watch enough of either team so please don't get mad.
Just correct/edit my suggestion.
IMHO, PK Subban >> B. Schenn, Eller = L. Schenn

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Old
09-15-2012, 12:12 AM
  #639
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JVR > L. Shenn = Eller

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Old
09-15-2012, 12:37 AM
  #640
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I am not going to comment on player's quality, because we all know just how subjective these evaluations are.

However, anybody considering a trade proposal to Montreal has to realise one thing: without Subban as a permanent fixture, our current D falls apart quicker than a Maple Leafs' spring hope. We just cannot afford to lose him, it'd would be a disaster.

We have a few good up and coming defensemen, but they aren't there yet and the maturing process will be painful. Subban has gone through most of that process already. He proved he can be a permanent fixture in our top 2-D.

No amount of Couturier would be able to make up for such a loss.

And ultimately, the same could be said for the Flyers. They really got their act together and put what I feel is one of the best, most positive team in the east. I really like it, but it's got a major problem at the blueline that simply won't be fixed, and they aren't gonna be anything more than a regular season flash in the pan unless they get a solid 1st D. Getting Subban, would be invaluable to them. Not because he is THAT good, but because he would be filling up a desperate need for the Flyers.

Subban is critical to the Habs, and would end up critical to the Flyers were he be acquired. Whatever payment that will be given must reflect that. Couturier just don't make it. He is one talented SoB, sure. But is he "critical" to the Flyers? Would he be THE difference maker in the Habs the way Subban currently is aspiring to become? (he often is, but not regularly enough)

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09-15-2012, 12:47 AM
  #641
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
I am not going to comment on player's quality, because we all know just how subjective these evaluations are.

However, anybody considering a trade proposal to Montreal has to realise one thing: without Subban as a permanent fixture, our current D falls apart quicker than a Maple Leafs' spring hope. We just cannot afford to lose him, it'd would be a disaster.

We have a few good up and coming defensemen, but they aren't there yet and the maturing process will be painful. Subban has gone through most of that process already. He proved he can be a permanent fixture in our top 2-D.

No amount of Couturier would be able to make up for such a loss.

And ultimately, the same could be said for the Flyers. They really got their act together and put what I feel is one of the best, most positive team in the east. I really like it, but it's got a major problem at the blueline that simply won't be fixed, and they aren't gonna be anything more than a regular season flash in the pan unless they get a solid 1st D. Getting Subban, would be invaluable to them. Not because he is THAT good, but because he would be filling up a desperate need for the Flyers.

Subban is critical to the Habs, and would end up critical to the Flyers were he be acquired. Whatever payment that will be given must reflect that. Couturier just don't make it. He is one talented SoB, sure. But is he "critical" to the Flyers? Would he be THE difference maker in the Habs the way Subban currently is aspiring to become? (he often is, but not regularly enough)
exatly what i think, except I would consider a trade for Couturier ONLY if the habs had replacement for Subban but it's not the case so... they should keep him

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09-15-2012, 01:08 AM
  #642
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You trade Subban, you give away our future simple as that.... And those of you who would do that just to get a guy with a French last name will be the first to rail about incompetent management when the Habs defense gets ripped apart on a nightly basis...

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09-15-2012, 01:20 AM
  #643
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Can we pin this? I'm a Flyers fan and even I'm getting sick of hearing about Couturier for Weber straight up.
Wow if Holmgren was stubborn enough to turn down Couturier for Weber, he's even more inept than I thought he was.

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09-15-2012, 03:20 AM
  #644
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Wow if Holmgren was stubborn enough to turn down Couturier for Weber, he's even more inept than I thought he was.
He didn't. He turned down Couturier, Schenn + for Weber

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09-15-2012, 04:49 AM
  #645
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
He didn't. He turned down Couturier, Schenn + for Weber

Weber is a stud d-man but I wouldnt have made that deal either. Homer did the right move

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09-15-2012, 05:04 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I honestly don't see why the Habs should make any trades at this point in time. In about 3-4 years, their team will have skill and depth at every position. With Galchenyuk-Plekanec-Eller-DD down the middle, they have no need to acquire another centre, imo.

It only make sense if Subban is asking for a ******** amount of money and The Habs are unwilling to pay that.

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09-15-2012, 08:12 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
He didn't. He turned down Couturier, Schenn + for Weber
The plus was probably significant, too. I wouldn't have done that deal.

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09-15-2012, 08:15 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by hockeywoot View Post
"Theoretically", let's say Couturier has a breakout year and pushes Schenn down the depth chart (Doubt it, but you never know)

would something like this make sense?

B. Schenn+ L. Schenn

for

PK Subban+Lars Eller

I don't watch enough of either team so please don't get mad.
Just correct/edit my suggestion.
This is tricky because of the hypothetical / projection to next year. If Luke Schenn rebounds at all and Brayden continues to progress, it is probably an overpayment by the Flyers. If either one of them doesn't, then its harder to judge, but probably Montreal comes up short.

I don't hate the value, though Holmgren's GM reputation would take a beating. Eller looks more the part of a classic 3C then Schenn, so if Couturier was to emerge as a clear 2C by next year, and the Flyers are unable to acquire a top-pairing defenseman, I'd think about it for sure.

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09-15-2012, 08:18 AM
  #649
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If it were true and the habs were to make a deal with the flyers, then one of Schenn/Couturier would have to come back + a defenseman, or another good piece that would allow the habs to turn it into another d.

Markov-Gorges
Emelin- Kaberle
Weber-Diaz
Bouillon

Sucks ass.

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Old
09-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Wow if Holmgren was stubborn enough to turn down Couturier for Weber, he's even more inept than I thought he was.
He didn't. People just love to use that a reason that Couturier won't be moved for anyone, despite the fact that it's not true and if it were Holmgren deserves to be fired.

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