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P.K. Subban resigns with Montreal, Jan. 28 (post #1)

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Old
09-14-2012, 01:52 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by CanadiensforLife View Post
You don't need to tell me, it's already done. On the other hand, your GM doesn't seem to think like you.
On the other hand it seems like pur GM doesnt want to give up the world for Subban like you think.

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09-14-2012, 03:11 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
And?

Are you trying to tell me you believe Subban is an elite, reliable defenseman?

Let me help - Giroux plays the PK and he's far from strong defensively.
I don't recall saying subban is elite defensively. You said "he's not reliable defensively".

I responded saying he's a key PK contributer on one of the best units league wide. Obviously, I'll agree that it's only a piece and not really indicative of a player's true defensive game. Unfortunately im on my phone so I can't find the other info right now. Basically subban's advanced stats are favorable towards him being a two-way presence on the ice.

I'd easily argue he's a top pairing d man right now. I won't argue #1 vs #2 on a team but he's clearly top 2. He's #1 on the habs and in teams like Boston who have chara, he'd be #2. Maybe some teams have super depth and he'd be #3(for instance last years predators).

In any case, my message isn't to suggest you need PK or you should trade for him. Just discussing what subban is right now.

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09-14-2012, 04:03 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't recall saying subban is elite defensively. You said "he's not reliable defensively".

I responded saying he's a key PK contributer on one of the best units league wide. Obviously, I'll agree that it's only a piece and not really indicative of a player's true defensive game. Unfortunately im on my phone so I can't find the other info right now. Basically subban's advanced stats are favorable towards him being a two-way presence on the ice.

I'd easily argue he's a top pairing d man right now. I won't argue #1 vs #2 on a team but he's clearly top 2. He's #1 on the habs and in teams like Boston who have chara, he'd be #2. Maybe some teams have super depth and he'd be #3(for instance last years predators).

In any case, my message isn't to suggest you need PK or you should trade for him. Just discussing what subban is right now.

everyone thinks PK Subban is a #1 not even close.

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09-14-2012, 04:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Shoot me in the head please.

Just got rid of one defenseman who didn't know how to play defense. Let's not replace him with another.
With you 100% CG! I think Homer is going to roll the dice with what he has on defence this year and if need be, do something the following season. I do not care for pk a little bit. The habs can have him. I just want to see how our young bucks progress before chopping up this lineup.

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09-14-2012, 04:34 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CanadiensforLife View Post
You don't need to tell me, it's already done. On the other hand, your GM doesn't seem to think like you.


Oh yes he does Nothing wrong with kicking some tires. Sean is not going anywhere, especially for pk.

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09-14-2012, 05:53 PM
  #81
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I love PK. He has a bright future but i dont know what would be fair value for him...

COBURN for PK would anyone here do that? That is a huge risk considering coburn can log huge minutes and his size provides us with someone who can handle power forwards.

But PK would provide us with a unique weapon on the pp and on offense in general.

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09-14-2012, 06:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
everyone thinks PK Subban is a #1 not even close.
I'm pretty sure I said subban is a #1 on the habs and #2 on some teams and in some cases may be a #3. Do people think he's a 7th d-man or something?

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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I love PK. He has a bright future but i dont know what would be fair value for him...

COBURN for PK would anyone here do that? That is a huge risk considering coburn can log huge minutes and his size provides us with someone who can handle power forwards.

But PK would provide us with a unique weapon on the pp and on offense in general.
Not sure what philly fans will say but don't propose it on trade board. Just a tip

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09-14-2012, 06:45 PM
  #83
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If I were the Habs, I wouldn't do it.

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09-14-2012, 06:47 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
On the other hand it seems like pur GM doesnt want to give up the world for Subban like you think.
Where did I say to give up the world for Subban?? Can you find that statement for me? Quit putting words in my mouth...what I'm saying is value for value. Mezsaros and a pick like one of your buddies suggested ain't gonna cut it.

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09-14-2012, 06:54 PM
  #85
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I'm not impressed with PK's defensive play. Whenever we play him, he makes a Carle'esque turnover that results in a goal once a game it seems. Where did this rumor start anyways?

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09-14-2012, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
I'm not impressed with PK's defensive play. Whenever we play him, he makes a Carle'esque turnover that results in a goal once a game it seems. Where did this rumor start anyways?
I find it a little strange that people have this fictitious theory that PK is a defensive liability. PK was a +9 on the league's 3rd worst team and played an average of over 24min/game (most of all Habs players) and in all situations (PP/PK/5on5). But to explain his true impact you would have to understand the following:

He led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I donít like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7.

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09-14-2012, 07:43 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I find it a little strange that people have this fictitious theory that PK is a defensive liability. PK was a +9 on the league's 3rd worst team and played an average of over 24min/game (most of all Habs players) and in all situations (PP/PK/5on5). But to explain his true impact you would have to understand the following:

He led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I donít like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7.
PK Does make a lot of aggressive, and some might say boneheaded moves. There where multiple time where I've watched PK try to rush up with the puck during a line change, cough the puck up leading to a break away, because he was the last man back.

I think the lack of Markov for most of last year, plus the ice time he had to take over; gave him a sense that he could get away with risks and get little to no punishment.

He is still young and it was a sophmore year for him. From watching almost every Habs game, I believe he will be a dominant player in the league.

Now what PK is worth and what he is worth to the Flyers may be different. Personally I rather see how Couts pans out. I'm not sure what i would offer.

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09-15-2012, 03:16 AM
  #88
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I'll be pretty pissed if Couts or Read get moved for Subban, that's for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I've seen him make a few game-changing offensive plays...but I've also seen him make a few really awful game-changing defensive mistakes.
Pretty much this. He goes for the big hit, while the puck and another forward whiz past him to score the goal that eventually buries the team.

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09-15-2012, 04:48 AM
  #89
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It's hillarious how many people in this thread have clearly not seen subban play. I don't know why he is getting a silly amount of hate.

He's a bonafide 1# defenseman. IF you don't think so then you are wrong. Simple as that. He's not a defensive liability. He plays an agressive game and made a few mistakes that any sophmore defenseman makes.

Put it this way. He's no Matt Carle on the defensive end.

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09-15-2012, 09:40 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
On the other hand it seems like pur GM doesnt want to give up the world for Subban like you think.
Subban is one of the faces of their franchise. He's one of their most popular players. He's their #1 d-man. He's THE d-man their building their team around. If their going to trade Subban away, something I highly doubt, it'll take a lot. It's funny that people expect the world for Couturier, who hasn't proven nearly what Subban has, and doesn't mean what Subban means to his club, but don't think that other teams have players that they value highly, probably higher than another team would value them. You can't just try to throw scraps for other team's players and then get mad when they want fair value for them. Asking for Couturier isn't asking for the world. Thinking it'll take a player like Pietrangelo or Doughty for Couturier is.

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I'll be pretty pissed if Couts or Read get moved for Subban, that's for sure.
Pretty much this. He goes for the big hit, while the puck and another forward whiz past him to score the goal that eventually buries the team.
You have to be kidding me. I like Matt Read but man is he is overrated. He doesn't have nearly the value that some want to believe and he would not be a main piece to be able to bring in a player like Subban.

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09-15-2012, 09:42 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
You have to be kidding me. I like Matt Read but man is he is overrated. He doesn't have nearly the value that some want to believe and he would not be a main piece to be able to bring in a player like Subban.
I assume that the poster meant "Couturier and Read"--because, like you said, it is simply too absurd otherwise.

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09-15-2012, 09:45 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I love PK. He has a bright future but i dont know what would be fair value for him...

COBURN for PK would anyone here do that? That is a huge risk considering coburn can log huge minutes and his size provides us with someone who can handle power forwards.

But PK would provide us with a unique weapon on the pp and on offense in general.
I would not. Braydon is a very good all around player which this team needs. This team can score so that is not the issue here. Am I one of the few fans who wants to see what Gustafsson,Bourdon and Manning can bring to the table before we bust up our lineup for PK? Heck, we even have a 19 year old who looks like he could be a very good point producer in Gostisbehere. Here is a list of players I like over PK and would not mind having in our lineup. Yes some have holes in their game but no one is perfect.
Karl Alzner
Brent Burns
John Carlson
Cam Fowler
Erik Gudbranson
Victor Hedman
Erik Johnson
Jack Johnson
O. Ekman Larsson
Adam Larsson
Tyler Meyers
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Luca Sibisa
Shea Weber What a shame huh?
I am not saying these guys are all number ones just players I would like to see in Orange and Black over PK. Be my guest to flame away but that is my opinion.

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09-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I would not. Braydon is a very good all around player which this team needs. This team can score so that is not the issue here. Am I one of the few fans who wants to see what Gustafsson,Bourdon and Manning can bring to the table before we bust up our lineup for PK? Heck, we even have a 19 year old who looks like he could be a very good point producer in Gostisbehere. Here is a list of players I like over PK and would not mind having in our lineup. Yes some have holes in their game but no one is perfect.
Karl Alzner
Brent Burns
John Carlson
Cam Fowler
Erik Gudbranson
Victor Hedman
Erik Johnson
Jack Johnson
O. Ekman Larsson
Adam Larsson
Tyler Meyers
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Luca Sibisa
Shea Weber What a shame huh?
I am not saying these guys are all number ones just players I would like to see in Orange and Black over PK. Be my guest to flame away but that is my opinion.
Most of those are probably fair--though I don't know how you could take Sbisa over Subban.

I guess the point, though, is that most of them are not even close to available, whereas Subban might be.

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09-15-2012, 10:08 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
It's hillarious how many people in this thread have clearly not seen subban play. I don't know why he is getting a silly amount of hate.

He's a bonafide 1# defenseman. IF you don't think so then you are wrong. Simple as that. He's not a defensive liability. He plays an agressive game and made a few mistakes that any sophmore defenseman makes.

Put it this way. He's no Matt Carle on the defensive end.
He's not generally Carling up his own end, no. I think he's more like Mike Green before he missed a lot of time. I don't know if Green's rust coming back from injuries has made him more reluctant to go for big plays that backfire, or if he watched a lot of film and was left wondering WTF he was thinking on some disastrous plays...but he was a damned steady defenseman when he returned this season. It was remarkable to see.

Unlike Green, Subban hasn't tightened up his game yet. He still takes those risks, and they still bite him in a big way. It took Green missing a year to change his game, and he was no sophomore when he was still making those aggressive mistakes. Subban doesn't strike me as a guy who's going to just suddenly stop all that stuff on his own, not any time soon.

I guess you and I watched different Montreal games, but I saw some holes in his game and his personality doesn't come across as one that would change his risky ways. Just speculating, could be wrong of course; I just don't know that I want to risk Couturier + and create a big new hole on the team based on what Subban has shown so far.

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09-15-2012, 10:48 AM
  #95
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anyone else here not want Subban? I personally do not. For what it would cost plus I just dont think hes the no 1 we need. Now Weber certainly or many of the players on Hockeypetes list

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09-15-2012, 12:14 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I love PK. He has a bright future but i dont know what would be fair value for him...

COBURN for PK would anyone here do that? That is a huge risk considering coburn can log huge minutes and his size provides us with someone who can handle power forwards.

But PK would provide us with a unique weapon on the pp and on offense in general.
Id love Subban on the Flyers as well, but I dont see a reason to dish out Coburn. Its basically a step forward by adding PK and then a step backwards by removing Coburn.

The problem is what the Flyers are willing to offer most likely wouldn't be accepted. But in a perfect world, maybe Read, Laughton, 1st? And I'm pretty sure Habs fans will laugh in my face for that one.

Im just throwing out names there, but essentially I see no reason to ship out our current #2 dman.

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09-15-2012, 12:26 PM
  #97
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From an unbiased leafs point of view Philly should have no part of subban. Couts will be the better of the two as early as next year

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09-15-2012, 01:35 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I would not. Braydon is a very good all around player which this team needs. This team can score so that is not the issue here. Am I one of the few fans who wants to see what Gustafsson,Bourdon and Manning can bring to the table before we bust up our lineup for PK? Heck, we even have a 19 year old who looks like he could be a very good point producer in Gostisbehere. Here is a list of players I like over PK and would not mind having in our lineup. Yes some have holes in their game but no one is perfect.
Karl Alzner
Brent Burns
John Carlson
Cam Fowler
Erik Gudbranson
Victor Hedman
Erik Johnson
Jack Johnson
O. Ekman Larsson
Adam Larsson
Tyler Meyers
Alex Pietrangelo
Brent Seabrook
Luca Sibisa
Shea Weber What a shame huh?
I am not saying these guys are all number ones just players I would like to see in Orange and Black over PK. Be my guest to flame away but that is my opinion.
You'd take him over Subban?

I agree with just about everyone else on your list. Problem is, that those players are either not going to be traded or cost way too much. What do you honestly think it would take to get a player like Pietrangelo?

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Originally Posted by orangecrush8 View Post
Id love Subban on the Flyers as well, but I dont see a reason to dish out Coburn. Its basically a step forward by adding PK and then a step backwards by removing Coburn.

The problem is what the Flyers are willing to offer most likely wouldn't be accepted. But in a perfect world, maybe Read, Laughton, 1st? And I'm pretty sure Habs fans will laugh in my face for that one.

Im just throwing out names there, but essentially I see no reason to ship out our current #2 dman.
Agree, trading away Coburn doesn't really help Philly.

And yeah, that'd be laughed at. No way they trade Subban if the main piece going back is Matt Read.

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09-15-2012, 08:15 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
You have to be kidding me. I like Matt Read but man is he is overrated. He doesn't have nearly the value that some want to believe and he would not be a main piece to be able to bring in a player like Subban.
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I assume that the poster meant "Couturier and Read"--because, like you said, it is simply too absurd otherwise.
No, I meant "or". And I know in terms of value Subban has more, and would be more useful. I was just saying I don't give a **** about stuff like that, because I would rather sacrifice the team's performance if its makeup is more to my liking. But as far as Couturier is concerned, I actually think he might have more value than Subban, but at this point it's too early to say.

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10-07-2012, 06:31 AM
  #100
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I think Homer knows better...
Are we talking about the same Homer who gave the Kings a Stanley Cup? The same Homer who sent JvR away for Luke Schenn? The same Homer who signed Bryzgalov for 9 years? I have watched the Flyers for decades and think Homer has made far more mistakes than good moves in the last few years.

Of course, if Homer would manage to get Subban for as little as Couturier, then it would end up being the best move of his recent tenure. If he gets a top pairing defenceman for a 3rd line center it will be an amazing coup. Luckily for Habs fans, Homer being Homer, it will not happen.

For those who think PK is a liability on defence, look at his advanced stats as well as his basic stats. He played top minutes against opposing teams' top lines in all situations (PK, PP, ES). He started the year making a lot of defensive errors because he wanted to do too much. As the season progressed, he got better and better, making less mistakes and taking a better defensive stance. The guy is only getting better and would be a top pairing defense man on almost every team in the NHL. He scores, hits, blocks shots, and draws tons of penalties. He still has some maturing to do, and has to cut down the turnovers he makes, but that has also improved. Most top defenders take time to develop, and PK will also grow and get better.

I like Couturier as a player, and think he has potential. However, he is not enough to get Subban 1-for-1. I have no issue with Flyer fans who want to keep Couturier over Subban. Personal choice is never a problem. I do have an issue with people trying to put Subban down in order to somehow justify their desire to keep Couturier. It is not necessary. You believe Couturier will one day be better than Subban, and that is enough reason right there to want to keep Couturier. There is no need to trash Subban in the process. It would be like a Habs fan trashing Hartnell in an attempt to prove that Tinordi is worth more than him. It is neither true nor necessary.

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