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RDS: Flyers/Habs talking about Subban (Mod Warning #441)

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:09 AM
  #651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeywoot View Post
The Flyers certainly have the pieces to get Subban, I just can't see them parting with them.


"Theoretically", let's say Couturier has a breakout year and pushes Schenn down the depth chart (Doubt it, but you never know)

would something like this make sense?

B. Schenn+ L. Schenn

for

PK Subban+Lars Eller


I don't watch enough of either team so please don't get mad.
Just correct/edit my suggestion.
WHAT ??? This is getting out of control....Why would the Habs take a huge downgrade on D like that ? Once again Subban is NOT going tp Philly.

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09-15-2012, 11:13 AM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I hear what you're saying and it's true. I guess what I'm saying is that when people offer up exaggerated opinions like that, it's just their way of hyperbole for the sake of emphasis. Nobody actually thinks that dumb ****.

It wouldn't be a slam-dunk deal for Weber even if you thought he was going to resign.
Right, people act like Couturier is the only player, especially young player, in the league with value and that he's one of the most untouchable players, not on the team, but in the league. They get mad when Coyote fans insist on Giroux for OEL (which is ridiculous might I add), but do the same thing with Couturier, who's not even worth as much as OEL. They think trading Couturier for Subban would be the absolute worse deal that Holmgren could ever make, yet they say things like "Holmgren refused to trade Couturier for Weber", which would be a much, much, much, much, much worse non-deal.

People constantly use junior stats and advanced stats to prove that Couturier will be a PPG Selke Caliber superstar, despite the fact that they don't prove that because progression doesn't work like that -- it's not linear. All they prove is that Couturier did a good job being a shutdown center last year, which isn't a surprise at all to me at least. Yet Subban's advanced stats last year ACTUALLY prove and show that he was a #1 d-man. Yet, Subban's not a #1 d-man but Couturier is a top 5 center in the league.

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:15 AM
  #653
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Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
WHAT ??? This is getting out of control....Why would the Habs take a huge downgrade on D like that ? Once again Subban is NOT going tp Philly.
...because it isn't L. Schenn for Subban straight up...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
Right, people act like Couturier is the only player, especially young player, in the league with value and that he's one of the most untouchable players, not on the team, but in the league. They get mad when Coyote fans insist on Giroux for OEL (which is ridiculous might I add), but do the same thing with Couturier, who's not even worth as much as OEL. They think trading Couturier for Subban would be the absolute worse deal that Holmgren could ever make, yet they say things like "Holmgren refused to trade Couturier for Weber", which would be a much, much, much, much, much worse non-deal.

People constantly use junior stats and advanced stats to prove that Couturier will be a PPG Selke Caliber superstar, despite the fact that they don't prove that because progression doesn't work like that -- it's not linear. All they prove is that Couturier did a good job being a shutdown center last year, which isn't a surprise at all to me at least. Yet Subban's advanced stats last year ACTUALLY prove and show that he was a #1 d-man. Yet, Subban's not a #1 d-man but Couturier is a top 5 center in the league.
I was with you through most of the first paragraph, but you went a bit off the rails here. Find me anyone, and I meant anyone, who says that Couturier is currently a top-5 center in the league.

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09-15-2012, 11:16 AM
  #654
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Old
09-15-2012, 11:20 AM
  #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...because it isn't L. Schenn for Subban straight up...



I was with you through most of the first paragraph, but you went a bit off the rails here. Find me anyone, and I meant anyone, who says that Couturier is currently a top-5 center in the league.
Lets see, how do i explain this ?

SUBBAN IS NEEDED ON THE HABS DEFENSE...Which is in dier need of a defensman just like him. The other Schenn, would be a huge downgrade on D. We finished 15th last year because of the D, imagine replacing Subby with Luke ?

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09-15-2012, 11:39 AM
  #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
Lets see, how do i explain this ?

SUBBAN IS NEEDED ON THE HABS DEFENSE...Which is in dier need of a defensman just like him. The other Schenn, would be a huge downgrade on D. We finished 15th last year because of the D, imagine replacing Subby with Luke ?
...so what you're trying to say is the upgrade from Eller to B. Schenn is not worth the downgrade from Subban to L. Schenn?

That's a perfectly reasonable point--and it makes sense. But that's not what you asked. You asked why Montreal would do this--the answer is to upgrade from Eller to Schenn. (I'm not saying they should--and to be fair to the poster who suggested it, the deal was based on both Schenns progressing (and, implicitly, Subban and Eller not).

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09-15-2012, 11:40 AM
  #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...because it isn't L. Schenn for Subban straight up...



I was with you through most of the first paragraph, but you went a bit off the rails here. Find me anyone, and I meant anyone, who says that Couturier is currently a top-5 center in the league.
I was talking future, not now obviously. People have said that Couturier's going to be a as good as Giroux, which would make him a top 5 center in the league, no? But Subban's defense sucks and he's not a #1 d-man. He's going to be Dion Phaneuf 2.0.

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:43 AM
  #658
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
I was talking future, not now obviously. People have said that Couturier's going to be a as good as Giroux, which would make him a top 5 center in the league, no? But Subban's defense sucks and he's not a #1 d-man. He's going to be Dion Phaneuf 2.0.
I think very few believe Couturier will ever be a top-tier 1C, let alone a top-5 overall (given the age of Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Toews, and other established players, that seems highly unlikely, and that's without even considering guys like RNH, Seguin, etc.).

I don't disagree with what you're trying to say, but it seems like you're overstating the position of my Flyers fans / Couturier homers.

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09-15-2012, 12:09 PM
  #659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
...so what you're trying to say is the upgrade from Eller to B. Schenn is not worth the downgrade from Subban to L. Schenn?

That's a perfectly reasonable point--and it makes sense. But that's not what you asked. You asked why Montreal would do this--the answer is to upgrade from Eller to Schenn. (I'm not saying they should--and to be fair to the poster who suggested it, the deal was based on both Schenns progressing (and, implicitly, Subban and Eller not).
I am confused, my question is Why would Montreal do this ? When they Cannot afford to downgrade on D. B Schenn has not proven anything yet, though i think he will be good, i believe in Eller.

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09-15-2012, 12:10 PM
  #660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think very few believe Couturier will ever be a top-tier 1C, let alone a top-5 overall (given the age of Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Toews, and other established players, that seems highly unlikely, and that's without even considering guys like RNH, Seguin, etc.).

I don't disagree with what you're trying to say, but it seems like you're overstating the position of my Flyers fans / Couturier homers.
I dont know about couturier never being a top tier 1c. I think he can be a top 10 c one day.

This day in age a top 20 centerman is worth more than a pmd. Teams like toronto and calgary have been in purgatory for a while simply because they have not had a legit first line center in a while. The Rangers were in that category as well but were fortunate enough to land Richards and look what happened.

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Old
09-15-2012, 12:14 PM
  #661
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I have to laugh at the comments claiming that Subban is not a #1 defenseman in the NHL. He is the Habs' #1 defenseman and anyone would be hardpressed to find 30 defensemen better than him. Of course, opinions being what they are, everything is arguable on that last point.

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09-15-2012, 12:17 PM
  #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I dont know about couturier never being a top tier 1c. I think he can be a top 10 c one day.

This day in age a top 20 centerman is worth more than a pmd. Teams like toronto and calgary have been in purgatory for a while simply because they have not had a legit first line center in a while. The Rangers were in that category as well but were fortunate enough to land Richards and look what happened.
Are you saying that Couts has more value than Subban ? If so you are WRONG !
Subban is way more than a pmd.

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Old
09-15-2012, 12:57 PM
  #663
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Looks like we have a beat writer saying there is no truth to this. This is also turning into quite a blood bath. Let's close it up. If new news comes up, we will open it back up.

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