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In (Partial) Defense Of Scott Howson's Recent Trade History

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Old
09-15-2012, 05:45 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Taking back Dubinsky in the Nash trade was ridiculous, since they got no elite talent back. 4 million dollar 3rd liners are way overvalued these days

also the isles offered their entire draft for CBJ to drop TWO spots sorry but for a team with as many organizational needs as CBJ it was not smart IMO to not do the trade
One bad season and Dubinsky is a 3rd liner? Give me a break. I think you'll see that he is capable of being effective 2C in Columbus.

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09-15-2012, 08:40 AM
  #102
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You had me at Chris Clark and Jurcina for Chimera. Seriously that does back your claim that noone pays attention to jackets players. Chimera seems like the same player.

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09-15-2012, 08:58 AM
  #103
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Dime a dozen as in guaranteed NHL talent for the next decade or so......?
Dime a dozen as none of the guys the Rangers dealt seem to excel at anything in particular. The talent is there. The heads are not.

There was a time that I felt Dubinsky was pretty much an untouchable asset. He's just never managed to put it all together and consistent.

AA it seems like there's something there. But will the production ever match the talent?

And in Erixon, I found Torts' comments pretty telling.

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09-15-2012, 09:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Generally View Post
Columbus fans have a chip on their shoulder cause of LeBron. That's all.


I can't stand basketball and/or anything to do with it. You sure you haven't confused us with Cleveland?

It's an inspired accusation. I'll give you points for that. But it's about 150+ miles off target.

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Originally Posted by Generally View Post
If and when you do watch the games you see a guy who scored two hat tricks, broke his ankle blocking shots, and separated his shoulder in a physical game against Anaheim.
Congrats, you've found four of 39 games. Would you like to go see the rest now?

* * *
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Im not going to lie and say i watched more CBJ games than you , but i watched 7 games of Jeff carter when he was a CBJ, and from my point of view it looked like a team that was in such disarray it was hard to pick out who was trying and who was just plain bad. IN one of the games I did not see Nash go into one defensive corner the whole game. IN fact that seemed to be a theme for CBJ last year, a huge disconnect between the skilled players and the blue collar players.
This is a reasonably fair assessment of how the team as a whole played. It is still an incomplete assessment of Jeff Carter as a Blue Jacket.

Incidentally, we didn't have that kind of massive disarray until he arrived, and it departed along with him. Food for thought.

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Now the team is void of talent on the roster and in the minors.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The only thing we genuinely lack is proven top-line players.

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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Very disappointing for your team , and honestly the team you are fielding this next year will be even worst imo.
Maybe in fantasy hockey. What we see is a team composed of players that look to all be on the same page - thus removing that incredible disarray element you were referring to earlier.

Quality results are not guaranteed (by a long shot ). But last overall next year is about as unlikely and improbable as making the playoffs.

* * *
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Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
"it is well known that Carter was a locker room cancer"

okay so this is your rationalization. Carter is just one dude, it's nice that you can use him as an excuse as to why the Bluejackets were a major miss
This is a favorite tactic of folks who want to believe Carter wasn't as bad here as we say - claiming that we're suggesting Jeff Carter is the sole reason why we finished as badly as we did.

No Blue Jackets fan has actually suggested this, because it is blatantly untrue. He was a major contributing factor and a catalyst, but Arniel's failure to do anything with the locker-room situation other than make it vastly worse, tons of blueline injuries, and the goaltending falling apart again were equally if not more significant.

We're aware of this. Stop pretending that we're focusing on Carter because we think he's the most responsible. We don't. We tend to focus on him because nobody believes us when we say what he did.

He was a major part of bringing this team down from "mediocre with upside" to "epic disaster", whether you want to believe it or not. He was not solely responsible... but he was a major factor.

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Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
Yeah this is exactly what I am talking about. Carter as a cancer @ Columbus is the biggest hype job that some certain whiny bluejackets have pulled off.
You say that as though anybody actually believes us. We either get silence, or "you're lying and don't know what you're talking about", or "you deserved it because you suck".

* * *
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
also the isles offered their entire draft for CBJ to drop TWO spots sorry but for a team with as many organizational needs as CBJ it was not smart IMO to not do the trade
This is the error that most people make when suggesting that that trade should have been taken, and it's usually made without much knowledge of the state of the prospect pool here.

Perceived prospect organizational needs of the Blue Jackets: EVERYTHING because they finished LAST OVERALL and omg rebuild.

Actual prospect organizational needs of the Blue Jackets: Top-end scoring prospects, particularly anyone resembling a power forward. That's it.

For further reference as to whether or not we'd actually get anywhere with those needs using the additional draft picks we'd have gotten, I refer you to Elliotte Friedman's article on the matter.

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09-15-2012, 10:11 AM
  #105
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I don't think Howson did all that terrible on recent trades. He got more from Nash than most people expect(Anisimov + Erixon), more from Carter, getting Carter was a bit of an overpay but not by much really to land close to a 1C.

I'm just glad he realized that its a good idea to carry more than 2-3 top 4 NHL defenseman on your roster.

The trade he should be criticized most for is the Klesla deal and letting Hejda walk without having a decent replacement. Until Nikitin, Johnson came in, there defense was absolutely terrible. I think the Marlies might have had as good of a defense come to think of it.

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09-15-2012, 10:24 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Isn't the decision on where to put your resources the GMs #1 job?

He'd rather have Luongo or Schneider but didn't want to pay the price. As a result, his team sucked, he traded away assets that would have got you either goalie (one this year, and one last year), his two best players going into last season demanded trades, and the team on paper is no better than it was last season.

Seems like a good reason to fire a GM.
That's speculative at best. Gillis would have been railroaded for trading one of Luongo or Schneider last year, and the asking price would have most likely been much higher last year than this year.

Quote:
Also, to address the unquoted part of your post, Luongo is more proven than Bob or Schneider and is on the block this year. If I'm the owner of CBJ and my team has a terrible goaltending again this season, I fire the GM. Being competitive would make such a difference for the franchise and I think the owner knows it which is why they spent all that money last year (like 2k more in attendance on average per night).
Gillis was looking at a market that was primed for being able to unload one of his goalies. Tampa, Columbus, Toronto, and possibly Chicago were all looking for substantial upgrades. He hasn't been able to get a deal done with any of them, and now he's on the outside looking in.

It stands to reason that the asking price for either goalie remains obscene, in which case I can't blame any of those teams for not making a move.

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For those discussing drafting, before he was GM wasn't Howson head scout?
He came from Edmonton and had no involvement in Columbus until he was hired as GM. It's also worth pointing out that Edmonton plummeted after he left (down something like 14 points on their 2000-07 average) while Columbus surged (up something like 12 points on their 2000-07 average).

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09-15-2012, 10:30 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Generally View Post
Columbus fans have a chip on their
shoulder cause of LeBron. That's all.
Unlike ESPN, we actually know that Columbus and Cleveland are separated by about 130 miles. Saying they're the same is like saying, "I don't know why Philly fans and Rangers fans hate each other; they're basically from the same city."

Quote:
Every time it comes up CBJ people start imploring you to "just watch the games! carter was so lazy!"

If and when you do watch the games you see a guy who scored two hat tricks, broke his ankle blocking shots, and separated his shoulder in a physical game against Anaheim.
Take out those hat trick games, and you're left with a 40-goal guy who scored 9 goals in 37 games. Yes, forwards who are primarily goal scorers are notoriously streaky. This wasn't "streaky", this was "lazy".

Quote:
The Blue Jackets were 9 points from second to last place and 40 points from a playoff spot. 2011 was their worst calendar year they've ever had and at one point hadn't had back to back regulation wins in something like 40 games. Oh yeah, and they were spending to the cap.

But let's all blame Jeff Carter! He should WANT to be on this team!
You know who didn't float through the first 2/3 of last season with Columbus. Anyone else!

I did a decent amount of research a couple months back to find:
- Players who were moved who did not want to be in their new city or on their new team, AND
- Once there, played in a manner that clearly indicated that they did not want to be there

Out of all the players who hit the first criteria, only one hit the second as well: Jeff Carter. Hell, Scott Stevens actually threatened lawsuits and retirement rather than play for the Devils..can anyone say that he laid down on his new team?

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:14 AM
  #108
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Take out those hat trick games, and you're left with a 40-goal guy who scored 9 goals in 37 games. Yes, forwards who are primarily goal scorers are notoriously streaky. This wasn't "streaky", this was "lazy".
This is getting out of hand. First of all, Carter isn't a 40 goal guy, he's a low 30's scorer. Next, he had 15 goals in 37 games while playing injured. That means he was on pace to score in the low 30's, exactly what his average is, despite being injured. His attitude in Columbus may have sucked, but the hate you guys have for him goes too far

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09-15-2012, 11:20 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post




Nothing could be further from the truth. The only thing we genuinely lack is proven top-line players.



Maybe in fantasy hockey. What we see is a team composed of players that look to all be on the same page - thus removing that incredible disarray element you were referring to earlier.

Quality results are not guaranteed (by a long shot ). But last overall next year is about as unlikely and improbable as making the playoffs.



Lets be honest and frank here.
Your team is in one of the most competitive divisions in hockey and you are clearly the worst team in that division.

You have no forward in your lineup that would be a top line player on any line in the league.

What team will finish with a worst record than you? Your previous posts made you seem like a disgruntled homer with an agenda in terms of your view of carter. However you made some very smart observations which made me consider your opinion.. This particular post makes me rethink my opinion of you.

I think if you are honest with your self and your assessment of your team , you can admit that you guys are one of the worst if not the worst team heading into this coming season if we ever have one.

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09-15-2012, 11:38 AM
  #110
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People are lazy and some people are easy to hate and blame.

Its lazy to think that Bettman is the reason why their is a lockout Its easy to think that way because he is such an uncharismatic person. So lets blame him for this lockout.


I feel that Carter has been a victim if this laziness and easy to blame attitude amongst fans. I've seen it first hand as a flyer fan.

While i agree carter was not helping the situation in CBJ, he was not the reason why that situation was happening. To blame one person alone for that fiasco is lazy and narrow minded. I understand the hatred fans have for Jeff cater, he was such an easy scapegoat for CBJ. He came with the hopes of propelling the franchise to new heights, and in his 37 games of an injury plagued dysfunctional season he was jettisoned out of town as the reason the team performed the way it did.

That is so nice and convenient. And if you're a cbj fan and you want to believe that go ahead. But it goes against everything that Jeff Carter has displayed in his professional career. He has always been a hard worker, team player, and a winner. And i beg you to prove me otherwise.

Some players get all the blame. When their talent does not correlate to team success they get blamed first and its not right. And this is what is happening here.

Scott Howson made a bold decision with that trade , which in my opinon was a great trade for cbj. And then they sold him for pennies on the dollar and looked what happened.

Richards and Carter are stanley cup champions and this is not their first time winning. WJC, calder cup and now stanley cup champions together. These maligned players are maligned by bitter fans and not by people who live in reality.

Fans dont be lazy, and dont succumb to easy stereotypes. Think for yourselves.

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:42 AM
  #111
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Candyman, do you think you can pull up someof those comments made by players after carter left? I googled this but could find no quotes.
The Dorsett one was in a radio interview. The Wisniewski, Brassard, and Boll ones were in post game interviews, I'll look for the specific videos.

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Old
09-15-2012, 11:46 AM
  #112
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The Dorsett one was in a radio interview. The Wisniewski, Brassard, and Boll ones were in post game interviews, I'll look for the specific videos.
videos are even better. I was looking for text quotes. Thats probably why i couldnt find any. Ill check out the cbj site.

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09-15-2012, 11:57 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Dime a dozen as none of the guys the Rangers dealt seem to excel at anything in particular. The talent is there. The heads are not.

There was a time that I felt Dubinsky was pretty much an untouchable asset. He's just never managed to put it all together and consistent.

AA it seems like there's something there. But will the production ever match the talent?

And in Erixon, I found Torts' comments pretty telling.
Dubinsky is still an elite board player. You're right on Anisimov in that he doesn't have a glaring attribute going for him, but he has the talent level to develop that. He's still young.

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Old
09-15-2012, 12:09 PM
  #114
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As a CBJ fan:
Yes Carter did not work out as planned which seemed to be due to bad attitude. On the bigger side, yes Carter became one of the biggest scape goats for much of the past season's failures. Please note too that not all Jackets fans have such strong views on it, but a few posters don't mind bringing it up any chance they get. Which in turn probably makes us all sound like whiners.
Since this thread is about Howson's recent trade history, I would agree it has not been too bad. However, if this is an argument to say that Howson isn't a bad GM or that he deserves more time as GM, then its a classic situation of not seeing the forest for the trees.

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09-15-2012, 12:19 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Dubinsky is still an elite board player. You're right on Anisimov in that he doesn't have a glaring attribute going for him, but he has the talent level to develop that. He's still young.
Dubinsky might be good along the boards, but there never seems to be a purpose. He makes semi circles from blue line to behind the net to blue line but there never seems to plan other than to maintain possession of the puck.

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09-15-2012, 02:41 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Reini29 View Post
I dont think that Howson is nearly as bad as people make him out to be. I dont exactly know why he gets so much flak, is it because he is terrible or because some people just dont know hockey well enough.

First of all, he is at least trying to make the Jackets a competitive team. With Carter and Wisniewski he tried to acquire the number one center and defenseman. He is trying to fill the teams needs. Okay the Wiz signing was pretty bad, i'll admit that. But they had money to spend.

Carter trade was quite bad aswell. I dont know about other people but as soon as i heard the trade i knew it wasnt going to work out. Carter isnt that type of player that would want to play for any other team than a contender. We all knew Voracek was a good player already back then and he still had potential. BUT i think Howson did a good job correcting his mistake by acquiring Johnson. He is exactly the type of defenseman they need.

The situation with Nash was a very difficult one. I too thought it wasnt a very good deal at first but then after thinking about it, it actually isnt that bad.
Thinking that Winsniewski is a #1 defenseman makes you a bad general manager, to me at least

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09-15-2012, 02:45 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post


I can't stand basketball and/or anything to do with it. You sure you haven't confused us with Cleveland?



This is a favorite tactic of folks who want to believe Carter wasn't as bad here as we say - claiming that we're suggesting Jeff Carter is the sole reason why we finished as badly as we did.

No Blue Jackets fan has actually suggested this, because it is blatantly untrue. He was a major contributing factor and a catalyst, but Arniel's failure to do anything with the locker-room situation other than make it vastly worse, tons of blueline injuries, and the goaltending falling apart again were equally if not more significant.

We're aware of this. Stop pretending that we're focusing on Carter because we think he's the most responsible. We don't. We tend to focus on him because nobody believes us when we say what he did.

He was a major part of bringing this team down from "mediocre with upside" to "epic disaster", whether you want to believe it or not. He was not solely responsible... but he was a major factor.



You say that as though anybody actually believes us. We either get silence, or "you're lying and don't know what you're talking about", or "you deserved it because you suck".
.
It's as if you forget the Jackets were already the lowest of the low before the Carter trade. "mediocre with upside"? Come on you are talking about a team like the Wild or the Ducks (shudder) who at least could plausibly make the playoffs. No one believed the Jackets were finishing anywhere above 12th in the conference.

Not trying to put you down because I know how it is to be rooting on the wrong side of the ice, but you basically have made your HF posting career about assassinating Jeff Carter's character.

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09-15-2012, 02:47 PM
  #118
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Not trying to put you down because I know how it is to be rooting on the wrong side of the ice, but you basically have made your HF posting career about assassinating Jeff Carter's character.
You obviously don't read very much of these boards if you think Jeff Carter is a major concern with Viqsi.

I also hate the revisionist history people show when their team trades away a piece. Rangers fans wouldn't be talking that way about Dubinsky if he were still on their team. It goes from "he's a solid piece" to "he's one of the worst, most overrated players!" Seriously, it gets old on here when fans do that.

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09-15-2012, 02:49 PM
  #119
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You obviously don't read very much of these boards if you think Jeff Carter is a major concern with Viqsi.

I also hate the revisionist history people show when their team trades away a piece. Rangers fans wouldn't be talking that way about Dubinsky if he were still on their team. It goes from "he's a solid piece" to "he's one of the worst, most overrated players!" Seriously, it gets old on here when fans do that.
what are you talking about. I see posts around where this guy says something about Carter all the time.

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09-15-2012, 03:34 PM
  #120
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When the Carter trade happened I thought that Richards would have been a much better fit for CBJ than Carter

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09-15-2012, 03:50 PM
  #121
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It's simply poor asset management to pay the price for either and as has been discussed ad infinitum, Luongo's contract is a real problem. There are other ways he could have addressed this weakness.

I would have fired him before this, but there are better ways to shore up the goaltending than overpaying for Schneider or taking on Luongo given his age and contract term.
The weakness still exists, if Bob and Mase are the projected starters for next year, that's two guys who showed they might not even be NHL level backups last year (save% below 0.899 for both).

Howson needs to address that weakness before he gets anything higher than a "D" for his GM rating.

I'd be interested in hearing what your solution would be since you feel there's better options out there.

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09-15-2012, 04:01 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Dubinsky might be good along the boards, but there never seems to be a purpose. He makes semi circles from blue line to behind the net to blue line but there never seems to plan other than to maintain possession of the puck.
That alone is a great quantity to have in a player.

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09-15-2012, 04:04 PM
  #123
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Lets be honest and frank here.
Your team is in one of the most competitive divisions in hockey and you are clearly the worst team in that division.

You have no forward in your lineup that would be a top line player on any line in the league.

What team will finish with a worst record than you? Your previous posts made you seem like a disgruntled homer with an agenda in terms of your view of carter. However you made some very smart observations which made me consider your opinion.. This particular post makes me rethink my opinion of you.

I think if you are honest with your self and your assessment of your team , you can admit that you guys are one of the worst if not the worst team heading into this coming season if we ever have one.
You could also say Columbus has a history of doing better with less players.

Fact is they were stacked with the most offensive players they've ever had, and ended up with the worst record in the NHL. They've never done that bad with worse players. Now they have defense, and when they traded for good defenseman, CBJ had a much better record.

The honest truth is they could be crap, or they could be alright. How did Philly do with 3-4 1st line centers on their team again?

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09-15-2012, 04:04 PM
  #124
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Unlike ESPN, we actually know that Columbus and Cleveland are separated by about 130 miles. Saying they're the same is like saying, "I don't know why Philly fans and Rangers fans hate each other; they're basically from the same city."



Take out those hat trick games, and you're left with a 40-goal guy who scored 9 goals in 37 games. Yes, forwards who are primarily goal scorers are notoriously streaky. This wasn't "streaky", this was "lazy".



You know who didn't float through the first 2/3 of last season with Columbus. Anyone else!

I did a decent amount of research a couple months back to find:
- Players who were moved who did not want to be in their new city or on their new team, AND
- Once there, played in a manner that clearly indicated that they did not want to be there

Out of all the players who hit the first criteria, only one hit the second as well: Jeff Carter. Hell, Scott Stevens actually threatened lawsuits and retirement rather than play for the Devils..can anyone say that he laid down on his new team?
This is completely absurd, even for you. You can't research player motivations, effort levels, and general unhappiness. What are you, the hockey whisperer? Give me a break.

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09-15-2012, 04:09 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
You could also say Columbus has a history of doing better with less players.

Fact is they were stacked with the most offensive players they've ever had, and ended up with the worst record in the NHL. They've never done that bad with worse players. Now they have defense, and when they traded for good defenseman, CBJ had a much better record.

The honest truth is they could be crap, or they could be alright. How did Philly do with 3-4 1st line centers on their team again?
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. My opinion is they have the worst roster in the league by far and their record will reflect that.

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