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Old
09-15-2012, 03:09 PM
  #51
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That View Post
I'm not a Beaulieu fan at all, but he has absolutely progressed.
He's defense has improved leaps and bounds. He's still prone to dumb decisions like most young defenseman. He's 6'3", strong, fast, has a bullet of a shot, and move the puck with ease. That's a pretty rare skill set.

25 D prospects? I'd take Hamilton, Murray, Brodin, Gormley, Schultz, Rielly, Klefbom, Reinhart, Murphy, Dumba, Lindholm, and Morrow over him. That's 12. Other's who I would rank in the same tier are Ellis, Pouliot, Rundblad, Merrill, and Trouba.
I'd really appreciate it if you list 25 D prospects who are better than him.
Beaulieu is never going to be in the NHL for his defense, and it's still not great. You're looking for serious progression in his game, his offense taking that next step, or truly becoming a two-way guy. Beaulieu hasn't done either of that, improving his putrid defense to somewhat mediocre doesn't do much.

Not going to list an order of defensemen, but I suspect I can come close to 25 just of listing in random order.

Dougie Hamilton
Brandon Gormley
Ryan Murray
Ryan Murphy
Morgan Reilly
Duncan Siemens
Tyson Barrie
Jamie Oleksiak
Jonas Brodin
Oscar Klefbom
Justin Schultz
Sami Vatanen
Matt Dumba
Griffin Reinhart
Joe Morrow
Jacob Trouba
Jon Merill
Simon Després
Jonathan Blum
Derrick Pouliot
Hampus Lindholm
Brenden Smith

That's not 25, but it's 22 defensemen I would take over Beaulieu, and then there's lots of other players I would put in the same tier as Beaulieu (Tinordi, Harrington, McIlrath, Koekkoek ect) that you could make the case for.

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Old
09-15-2012, 03:47 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Beaulieu is never going to be in the NHL for his defense, and it's still not great. You're looking for serious progression in his game, his offense taking that next step, or truly becoming a two-way guy. Beaulieu hasn't done either of that, improving his putrid defense to somewhat mediocre doesn't do much.

Not going to list an order of defensemen, but I suspect I can come close to 25 just of listing in random order.

Dougie Hamilton
Brandon Gormley
Ryan Murray
Ryan Murphy
Morgan Reilly
Duncan Siemens
Tyson Barrie
Jamie Oleksiak
Jonas Brodin
Oscar Klefbom
Justin Schultz
Sami Vatanen
Matt Dumba
Griffin Reinhart
Joe Morrow
Jacob Trouba
Jon Merill
Simon Després
Jonathan Blum
Derrick Pouliot
Hampus Lindholm
Brenden Smith

That's not 25, but it's 22 defensemen I would take over Beaulieu, and then there's lots of other players I would put in the same tier as Beaulieu (Tinordi, Harrington, McIlrath, Koekkoek ect) that you could make the case for.
Can't believe I forgot to include Smith on my list

Clearly we have a much different opinion on Beaulieu (I didn't think anyone could dislike him more than myself). It seems like people are really sour on him because of the goal that he thought was blown dead at the WJC, and the turnover in the Memorial Cup. Me personally, watching him throughout the year, I saw progression. He's extremely frustrating to watch because there's the really selfish Beaulieu, and then the really lazy Beaulieu. He had nothing to prove offensively in juniors, he had a lot to prove defensively. He'll never be a guy your can play against a top line, but his skating and reach alone make him adequate defensively. His positioning is something that needs a lot of work, and you'd expect him to be more physical, but he's still a project at this point.

I take him over Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, and Blum. I have no idea why Oleksiak is even on that list. Pouliot and Merrill are similar players to Beaulieu, and Trouba and Despres (depending on what you value) are on the same level as him also.

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09-15-2012, 04:03 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Beaulieu is never going to be in the NHL for his defense, and it's still not great. You're looking for serious progression in his game, his offense taking that next step, or truly becoming a two-way guy. Beaulieu hasn't done either of that, improving his putrid defense to somewhat mediocre doesn't do much.

Not going to list an order of defensemen, but I suspect I can come close to 25 just of listing in random order.

Dougie Hamilton
Brandon Gormley
Ryan Murray
Ryan Murphy
Morgan Reilly
Duncan Siemens
Tyson Barrie
Jamie Oleksiak
Jonas Brodin
Oscar Klefbom
Justin Schultz
Sami Vatanen
Matt Dumba
Griffin Reinhart
Joe Morrow
Jacob Trouba
Jon Merill
Simon Després
Jonathan Blum
Derrick Pouliot
Hampus Lindholm
Brenden Smith

That's not 25, but it's 22 defensemen I would take over Beaulieu, and then there's lots of other players I would put in the same tier as Beaulieu (Tinordi, Harrington, McIlrath, Koekkoek ect) that you could make the case for.
Because YOU would do that doesn't mean that the rest of the league would.

For example, just compare the ratings of the players you've listed above to Beaulieu's on this very site (Hockey's Future) and see where he ranks according to them.

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Old
09-15-2012, 04:34 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That View Post
Can't believe I forgot to include Smith on my list

Clearly we have a much different opinion on Beaulieu (I didn't think anyone could dislike him more than myself). It seems like people are really sour on him because of the goal that he thought was blown dead at the WJC, and the turnover in the Memorial Cup. Me personally, watching him throughout the year, I saw progression. He's extremely frustrating to watch because there's the really selfish Beaulieu, and then the really lazy Beaulieu. He had nothing to prove offensively in juniors, he had a lot to prove defensively. He'll never be a guy your can play against a top line, but his skating and reach alone make him adequate defensively. His positioning is something that needs a lot of work, and you'd expect him to be more physical, but he's still a project at this point.

I take him over Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, and Blum. I have no idea why Oleksiak is even on that list. Pouliot and Merrill are similar players to Beaulieu, and Trouba and Despres (depending on what you value) are on the same level as him also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
Beaulieu is never going to be in the NHL for his defense, and it's still not great. You're looking for serious progression in his game, his offense taking that next step, or truly becoming a two-way guy. Beaulieu hasn't done either of that, improving his putrid defense to somewhat mediocre doesn't do much.

Not going to list an order of defensemen, but I suspect I can come close to 25 just of listing in random order.

Dougie Hamilton
Brandon Gormley
Ryan Murray
Ryan Murphy
Morgan Reilly
Duncan Siemens
Tyson Barrie
Jamie Oleksiak
Jonas Brodin
Oscar Klefbom
Justin Schultz.
Sami Vatanen
Matt Dumba
Griffin Reinhart
Joe Morrow
Jacob Trouba
Jon Merill
Simon Després
Jonathan Blum
Derrick Pouliot
Hampus Lindholm
Brenden Smith

That's not 25, but it's 22 defensemen I would take over Beaulieu, and then there's lots of other players I would put in the same tier as Beaulieu (Tinordi, Harrington, McIlrath, Koekkoek ect) that you could make the case for.
See, you can't even name 25. And your naming Dmans that are already in the NHL. He's an offensive Dman, he's PPG. Is stats went from .69 to 1.00PPG how is that not an upgrade in production ?

To the bolded : Remember P.K. ?

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Old
09-15-2012, 04:39 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by That View Post
Can't believe I forgot to include Smith on my list

Clearly we have a much different opinion on Beaulieu (I didn't think anyone could dislike him more than myself). It seems like people are really sour on him because of the goal that he thought was blown dead at the WJC, and the turnover in the Memorial Cup. Me personally, watching him throughout the year, I saw progression. He's extremely frustrating to watch because there's the really selfish Beaulieu, and then the really lazy Beaulieu. He had nothing to prove offensively in juniors, he had a lot to prove defensively. He'll never be a guy your can play against a top line, but his skating and reach alone make him adequate defensively. His positioning is something that needs a lot of work, and you'd expect him to be more physical, but he's still a project at this point.

I take him over Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, and Blum. I have no idea why Oleksiak is even on that list. Pouliot and Merrill are similar players to Beaulieu, and Trouba and Despres (depending on what you value) are on the same level as him also.
I'm not against him because of the Memorial Cup and last years WJC, I've had this opinion on Beaulieu since Fall 2010. He was progressing enough offensive, his defense will never be more than average, and he's inconsistent physical. Sure he's got more potential than many of the guys I listed but the chance he reaches that isn't even close to the others. He's boom or bust at this point but his boom isn't all that loud anyway.

Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, Blum, they may not have more potential than Beaulieu (Though I'd say Barrie and Vatanen have more), but at this point they're progressing much better and their potentials are that far off.

Oleksiak is there because despite what some people said, he's progressed a lot. When he was just starting to get use to the league he struggled, offense wasn't their, defense was good but it was nothing special. In Niagara he looked great, very mobile (Extremely good considering his size), stickwork and positioning improved, and he showed some offensive talent. I don't think he's ever going to be more than a 25-30 point player, but he'll definitely be an NHL player, something that can't be said for Beaulieu.

Pouliot and Merrill have shown more offensive talent at this point and Merrill has improved considerably since going to university, even if his attitude hasn't. Trouba ect could disappoint but at this point he's ahead of Beaulieu as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Because YOU would do that doesn't mean that the rest of the league would.

For example, just compare the ratings of the players you've listed above to Beaulieu's on this very site (Hockey's Future) and see where he ranks according to them.
Why would I do that? Hockey Future's ratings are notoriously flawed (Why does a player have to get older for his potential to be higher? If anything potential goes down with age)

And just because YOU would disagree with doesn't mean there's people who in the league who would disagree as well.

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Old
09-15-2012, 04:48 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I'm not against him because of the Memorial Cup and last years WJC, I've had this opinion on Beaulieu since Fall 2010. He was progressing enough offensive, his defense will never be more than average, and he's inconsistent physical. Sure he's got more potential than many of the guys I listed but the chance he reaches that isn't even close to the others. He's boom or bust at this point but his boom isn't all that loud anyway.

Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, Blum, they may not have more potential than Beaulieu (Though I'd say Barrie and Vatanen have more), but at this point they're progressing much better and their potentials are that far off.

Oleksiak is there because despite what some people said, he's progressed a lot. When he was just starting to get use to the league he struggled, offense wasn't their, defense was good but it was nothing special. In Niagara he looked great, very mobile (Extremely good considering his size), stickwork and positioning improved, and he showed some offensive talent. I don't think he's ever going to be more than a 25-30 point player, but he'll definitely be an NHL player, something that can't be said for Beaulieu.

Pouliot and Merrill have shown more offensive talent at this point and Merrill has improved considerably since going to university, even if his attitude hasn't. Trouba ect could disappoint but at this point he's ahead of Beaulieu as well.



Why would I do that? Hockey Future's ratings are notoriously flawed (Why does a player have to get older for his potential to be higher? If anything potential goes down with age)

And just because YOU would disagree with doesn't mean there's people who in the league who would disagree as well.
You clearly have an unbiased love for Beaulieu.


He's a bluechip prospect quit it.

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Old
09-15-2012, 04:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
See, you can't even name 25. And your naming Dmans that are already in the NHL. He's an offensive Dman, he's PPG. Is stats went from .69 to 1.00PPG how is that not an upgrade in production ?

To the bolded : Remember P.K. ?
Oh my I named 22 then said there's plenty of others in the same area as Beaulieu (10-15 players) that could be argued.

Such a travesty and completely makes my point irrelephant, no porpoise at all

And I already explained that. He was 19, as the lead defensemen, on one of the best teams in the CHL (Offensively). PPG is impressive but more should and was expected. Besides, I'm not talking about progression, I'm talking about his skills. The leap in production can be explained that now Beaulieu was the top defensemen, with top minutes and lead powerplay time.

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Old
09-15-2012, 05:00 PM
  #58
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Oh my I named 22 then said there's plenty of others in the same area as Beaulieu (10-15 players) that could be argued.

Such a travesty and completely makes my point irrelephant, no porpoise at all

And I already explained that. He was 19, as the lead defensemen, on one of the best teams in the CHL (Offensively). PPG is impressive but more should and was expected. Besides, I'm not talking about progression, I'm talking about his skills. The leap in production can be explained that now Beaulieu was the top defensemen, with top minutes and lead powerplay time.
Or maybe just that he progressed ? Oh and I think that if he's #1 d on the best team in the whole CHL means he's up there with the best of D prospect.

Sure he's no sure thing, sure he's not a shutdown D.

The kid is 19 too heh... It's funny that you mention Oleksiak being better. He came into the league and struggled offensively, wich is fine because he's not a true Offensive D, but he also struggled on the other side of the puck. While Beaulieu was dominant in his oppenent zone and average in his.

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Old
09-15-2012, 05:10 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
See, you can't even name 25. And your naming Dmans that are already in the NHL. He's an offensive Dman, he's PPG. Is stats went from .69 to 1.00PPG how is that not an upgrade in production ?

To the bolded : Remember P.K. ?
P.K. grew an insane amount as a player after his draft year. He needed to get better defensively, he did it. He needed to get more physical, he did it. Let wait and see before we start comparing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
I'm not against him because of the Memorial Cup and last years WJC, I've had this opinion on Beaulieu since Fall 2010. He was progressing enough offensive, his defense will never be more than average, and he's inconsistent physical. Sure he's got more potential than many of the guys I listed but the chance he reaches that isn't even close to the others. He's boom or bust at this point but his boom isn't all that loud anyway.

Siemens, Barrie, Vatanen, Blum, they may not have more potential than Beaulieu (Though I'd say Barrie and Vatanen have more), but at this point they're progressing much better and their potentials are that far off.

Oleksiak is there because despite what some people said, he's progressed a lot. When he was just starting to get use to the league he struggled, offense wasn't their, defense was good but it was nothing special. In Niagara he looked great, very mobile (Extremely good considering his size), stickwork and positioning improved, and he showed some offensive talent. I don't think he's ever going to be more than a 25-30 point player, but he'll definitely be an NHL player, something that can't be said for Beaulieu.

Pouliot and Merrill have shown more offensive talent at this point and Merrill has improved considerably since going to university, even if his attitude hasn't. Trouba ect could disappoint but at this point he's ahead of Beaulieu as well.
I agree with Vatanen having more potential. Generally I think size is overblown, but being 5'9" as a defenseman is a big concern.

Beaulieu's boom is a top pairing defenseman, how is that not "all that loud anyway"? I don't think anyone expects him to be one, but with the tools he has, it's certainly possible.

About Oleksiak, I disagree. Nothing really stand out with him other than being very tall. He's good defensively, and alright offensively. Oleksiak has done absolutely nothing to even be mention with the list you posted. Nothing.

Pouliot and Merrill have? Pouliot is an offensive defenseman, who has a lot of work too do defensively. Sounds awfully familiar...
Merrill, I'm not too sure about. I have limited viewings of him (Frozen Four and WJC) and hasn't really impressed offensively. He is a good passer, but that's about it. To be fair, his defence is definitely better than Beaulieu's.

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09-15-2012, 05:39 PM
  #60
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Nathan Beaulieu is the next impact defenseman in the NHL.

You trade N.Beaulieu, you trade the next Keith Yandle.

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Old
09-16-2012, 12:59 AM
  #61
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Or maybe just that he progressed ? Oh and I think that if he's #1 d on the best team in the whole CHL means he's up there with the best of D prospect.

Sure he's no sure thing, sure he's not a shutdown D.

The kid is 19 too heh... It's funny that you mention Oleksiak being better. He came into the league and struggled offensively, wich is fine because he's not a true Offensive D, but he also struggled on the other side of the puck. While Beaulieu was dominant in his oppenent zone and average in his.
No it doesn't, and Saint John was one of the best teams, they didn't win the Memorial Cup. The best team was probably London, who's number one forward was Seth Griffith, not even close to being up their with the best forward prospects. Their best defensmen? Scott Harrington or Olli Maatta, again, no where near the top defensive prospects. Their number one goalie, Michael Houser, signed as an overager, there's probably 50-60 goalie prospects better than him.

So I just proved there that just because you were the best of your position on a number one team doesn't mean you're a top prospect.

And I fail to see your point at all on Oleksiak besides demonstrating a lack of knowledge about him. Oleksiak is a defensive defensemen, and he has clearly improved in that regard. He's an awesome skater, the only player that is of comparable skating ability as a big man (6'6+) is Tyler Myers. On top of being a very strong defensive player and a great skater, he developed an offensive game.

He's clearly improved in every facet, Beaulieu not so much. Even if Oleksiak's offense never translate's (So a 5-10 point defensemen a best), his skating and defensive play are good enough to be a solid #5 defensemen. Beaulieu will need to significantly improve his defense to make the NHL at this point his offense is nothing to count on.

The only difference in his offensive game from 17 to 19 was he got more icetime. I'm serious, there is nothing different about his offensive game since he was 17. Hockey sense was always an issue and it's going to bite in his in the ass forever. That's what seperates the offensive wizards in junior from success in the pro's. Beaulieus mistakes run far deeper than just "dumb young defensemen mistakes".

I would bet you would put Tinordi in Beaulieu's territory and Oleksiak is Tinordi except he's a much better skater and he has an offensive game.

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I agree with Vatanen having more potential. Generally I think size is overblown, but being 5'9" as a defenseman is a big concern.

Beaulieu's boom is a top pairing defenseman, how is that not "all that loud anyway"? I don't think anyone expects him to be one, but with the tools he has, it's certainly possible.

About Oleksiak, I disagree. Nothing really stand out with him other than being very tall. He's good defensively, and alright offensively. Oleksiak has done absolutely nothing to even be mention with the list you posted. Nothing.

Pouliot and Merrill have? Pouliot is an offensive defenseman, who has a lot of work too do defensively. Sounds awfully familiar...
Merrill, I'm not too sure about. I have limited viewings of him (Frozen Four and WJC) and hasn't really impressed offensively. He is a good passer, but that's about it. To be fair, his defence is definitely better than Beaulieu's.
It's a concern but Vatanen's done everything to dispell his size. Keep's improving, proves people wrong. The people who taked about Beaulieus concerns aren't being proved wrong, they're being proved right.

I completely disagree about Beaulieu's boom being a top pairing defensemen. He simply doesn't have the hockey defense to be a top pairing defensemen. If everything goes right he could be a PP QB with sheltered second pairing minutes, but that's highly unlikely at this point. Ever heard of all the tools but not the toolbox? Kris Russell, another defensemen who excelled in junior, but lacking sense stunted him at the NHL level. Beaulieu's dumb mistakes stem from that. A likely reason for Beaulieus lack of progression is this lack of hockey sense.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Oleksiak, if you think he's done nothing to be in that list, why do you think Beaulieu has? Not long ago, Oleksiak was an average sized defensemen with limited offensive ability. And then he grew big, his skating got even better and he developed offensive skills. Oleksiak went from being an all-defense guy to a player with the potential to be a two-way defensemen. His talent just keeps improving, and his great skating combined with his size are a very rare combo, that's why he deserves to be in there.

Pouliot is an offensive defensemen with hockey sense. He's got potential to develop a strong defensive game (For his play style), and his offensive talent is more developed than Beaulieus at the same age, which as I've stated many times, is not much different now. Merrill is much better defensively than Beaulieu and his offense game is not far off if not on par with Beaulieu. The only thing holding back Merrill from blue-chip prospect status is his personality.

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09-16-2012, 05:52 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
Receive:

Nathan Beaulieu


Receive:

Richard Bachman
Austin Smith
2013 3rd Round Pick (Upgraded to 2nd if Bachman plays 20% of Games in 2012-13)


Why Dallas Does This - With a glut of NHL ready goaltenders (Lehtonen, Bachman, Nihlstrop), we can afford to trade one and actually benefit from it. If Nihlstrop proves himself to be a capable NHL back-up and can even beat out Bachman, I could definitely see him being traded sometime this season (trade deadline, maybe a bit earlier). With Bachman gone and Nihlstrop with the big club, Campbell would be able to get as much playing time in the AHL as seen fit, with Besko filling in if needed. Also, while our defense prospects are pretty solid, we add a great offensive defenseman to strengthen an already deep pool. A guy along the lines of Rundblad, Beaulieu, etc. would set us up for a very strong future on the back end IMO.

Why Montreal Does This - Montreal gets their back-up for the future, as Bachman could step in immediately and lessen the massive load Price carries while still having the potential to get better. Bachman could end up being a starter, but I think he'll excel in a position like he'd be in at Montreal. Obviously, Beaulieu is a better prospect than Bachman, so Montreal also receives a forward prospect who could be a solid bottom 6er for a while and a decent pick. Beaulieu's also expendable due to how deep Montreal is all across the board on defense.

So both teams fill a want (not really sure I'd call either a need) while dealing from a position of strength. Added a bit to even out the value.

Thoughts?
I think you missed your calling as a stand-up comedian.

Nothing is guaranteed with Beaulieu but he is projected to be #2-3 PMD. And for this you're telling the Habs to rummage through your garbage can and see what they can find in there. This is hysterical.

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09-16-2012, 09:26 AM
  #63
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All I gotta add is, to think Olesiak is leaps and bounds a better skater than Tinordi is proof enough someone knows **** about Tinordi.

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09-16-2012, 09:35 AM
  #64
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I am a Montreal fan, i could be willing to trade Beaulieu, but i dont want anything to do with Bachman nor Campbell.

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09-16-2012, 10:58 AM
  #65
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All I gotta add is, to think Olesiak is leaps and bounds a better skater than Tinordi is proof enough someone knows **** about Tinordi.
He is, and I suspect the only reason you're taking exception to the comment is because your a Montreal fan. Oleksiak and Tinordi are the exact same size, except Oleksiak skates like he's 6'0 and Tinoridi skates like he's, well 6'7. Doesn't skate like Hal Gil but I'm sorry that proves you know "crap" about Oleksiak.


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09-16-2012, 11:23 AM
  #66
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He is, and I suspect the only reason you're taking exception to the comment is because your a Montreal fan. Oleksiak and Tinordi are the exact same size, except Oleksiak skates like he's 6'0 and Tinoridi skates like he's, well 6'7. Doesn't skate like Hal Gil but I'm sorry that proves you know "crap" about Oleksiak.
I agree with him, Tinordi is a very fluent skater. You simply don't know as much about Habs prospects as you'd like us to believe.

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09-16-2012, 11:23 AM
  #67
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I completely disagree about Beaulieu's boom being a top pairing defensemen. He simply doesn't have the hockey defense to be a top pairing defensemen. If everything goes right he could be a PP QB with sheltered second pairing minutes, but that's highly unlikely at this point. Ever heard of all the tools but not the toolbox? Kris Russell, another defensemen who excelled in junior, but lacking sense stunted him at the NHL level. Beaulieu's dumb mistakes stem from that. A likely reason for Beaulieus lack of progression is this lack of hockey sense.
Beaulieu is bigger, a better skater (which isn't not a slight to Russell at all), and much stronger than Russell is. Personally, I'd compare Beaulieu to Jack Johnson. Both are big defenseman who can move the puck extremely well, have a hard slapshots, and are great passers, but get lost in their own zone, are prone to trying to force plays, and try to do too much by themselves.

There has absolutely been progression in Beaulieu's game. He's much better defensively, he still can be absolutely terrible in his own zone, but when it's a run and gun style game, he thrives. Beaulieu uses his stick to plays up much better, strips players of the puck, and his gap control has improved substantially. When the play is in his own zone for a large amount of time, that's when he starts looking bad. That's why I'm not a fan of his, but say he hasn't made any progression, is really selling him short. Either that, or you've seen him play like 5 games and formed an opinion off of that.

Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree about Oleksiak, if you think he's done nothing to be in that list, why do you think Beaulieu has? Not long ago, Oleksiak was an average sized defensemen with limited offensive ability. And then he grew big, his skating got even better and he developed offensive skills. Oleksiak went from being an all-defense guy to a player with the potential to be a two-way defensemen. His talent just keeps improving, and his great skating combined with his size are a very rare combo, that's why he deserves to be in there.
It was his final year in junior, if he isn't something special defensively, you kind of expect him to do something good offensively. I just don't see it with. Clearly you're very enthralled with Oleksiak, so there's absolutely no way that you're going to change your mind.

Quote:
Pouliot is an offensive defensemen with hockey sense. He's got potential to develop a strong defensive game (For his play style), and his offensive talent is more developed than Beaulieus at the same age, which as I've stated many times, is not much different now. Merrill is much better defensively than Beaulieu and his offense game is not far off if not on par with Beaulieu. The only thing holding back Merrill from blue-chip prospect status is his personality.
Of course he has potential to develop and defensive game, so does every defenseman. That includes Beaulieu. I consider a blue-chipper a top 10-15 prospect in the game. The Yakupovs, Markstroms, and Hamiltons of the game. There is no way he's a blue chipper at this point in time.



Also about the Tinordi vs. Oleksiak mini-debate, Tinordi's better. He's much defensively than Oleksiak. At he tries to be physical from time to time. He blocks more shots, is meaner (not mean enough though), much better and more consistent in his own zone. Tinordi out played Oleksiak at the World Juniors, and during the playoffs. You're greatly overrating Oleksiak's skating here. Is he a great skater for his size? Yes. Is he a great skater? No.

Give me Harrington over both. Love that guy.


Last edited by That: 09-16-2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: note to self, don't post in morning. Grammar = terrible
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09-16-2012, 12:07 PM
  #68
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Beaulieu is bigger, a better skater (which isn't not a slight to Russell at all), and much stronger than Russell is. Personally, I'd compare Beaulieu to Jack Johnson. Both are big defenseman who can move the puck extremely well, have a hard slapshots, and are great passers, but get lost in their own zone, are prone to trying to force plays, and try to do too much by themselves.

There has absolutely been progression in Beaulieu's game. He's much better defensively, he still can be absolutely terrible in his own zone, but when it's a run and gun style game, he thrives. Beaulieu uses his stick to plays up much better, strips players of the puck, and his gap control has improved substantially. When the play is in his own zone for a large amount of time, that's when he starts looking bad. That's why I'm not a fan of his, but say he hasn't made any progression, is really selling him short. Either that, or you've seen him play like 5 games and formed an opinion off of that.



It was his final year in junior, if he isn't something special defensively, you kind of expect him to do something good offensively. I just don't see it with. Clearly you're very enthralled with Oleksiak, so there's absolutely no way that you're going to change your mind.



Of course he has potential to develop and defensive game, so does every defenseman. That includes Beaulieu. I consider a blue-chipper a top 10-15 prospect in the game. The Yakupovs, Markstroms, and Hamiltons of the game. There is no way he's a blue chipper at this point in time.



Also about the Tinordi vs. Oleksiak mini-debate, Tinordi's better. He's much defensively than Oleksiak. At he tries to be physical from time to time. He blocks more shots, is meaner (not mean enough though), much better and more consistent in his own zone. Tinordi out played Oleksiak at the World Juniors, and during the playoffs. You're greatly overrating Oleksiak's skating here. Is he a great skater for his size? Yes. Is he a great skater? No.

Give me Harrington over both. Love that guy.
Beaulieu doesn't use his size particularly well anyway. Doesn't assert himself as a 6'2 200 lbs player. He's more of a finesse guy, always ways, probably always well be. Anyways, size is irrelevant to me in this discussion. Russell didn't fail because of his size, he failed because while his offensive talent was enough to dominate juniors (And dominate more then Beaulieu did), his offensive instincts weren't good enough to translate his game to the NHL level (And let's be honest, Russell was probably as good if not better than Beaulieu defensively at 19).

Saying he's absolutely progressed because his defensive game (Which will never be great) has slightly improved since he was 17 doesn't mean he's progressed. When you're looking for progression, you're looking for him to evolve as a player.

Beaulieu hasn't done that. His offensive game is identical to the game he played at 17 (The year before his draft year) and while his defense has improved, that's not progression. He's the exact same player he was 2 years ago, with the same critical issues in his game (Bad decision making, inconsistency in utliizing his size, medicore defensive game).

When you look at comparable players from his draft class (Let's use Ryan Murphy as an example), you can see the progression. In his draft year, Murphy was prone to playing like a winger instead of a defender, he was prone to going for a big hipcheck instead of staying on his man. He would pinch when he should not have pinched. He would pick bad tiems to shoot the puck. His offensive decision making was questionable. However, he made incredible progression from age 17 to age 18. He played more like a defender, made better decisions in his own zone. Knew when to pinch, when to shoot, and when to pass. His defensive game has went from bad for the OHL to actually pretty good for the OHL, and while his numbers didn't improve, his offensive game evolved to one much better suited for the NHL. You look for the same evolution in Beaulieu's game, him adapting, and it's not there

On Oleksiak, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Oleksiak is very good defensively, and his mobility allows him to utilize his defensive skills much better than someone who isn't as good a skater. Unlike Tinordi (A comparable player), Oleksiak has an offensive game. Not 40-50 points, but 25-30 point potential., which is you're great defensively (Which Oleksiak has the potential to be at the NHL level), that's more than enough.

I'm not sure why it's so black and white on these boards. If you post in support of a player, you"re "enthralled" with them, if you post against a player, you "hate" them. I'm posting about Oleksiak because he absolutely belongs in the group I posted, and he's incredibly underrated because for some reason people got in their minds he wasn't very good despite that opinion not being shared by the people who've seen him the most.

There's different degree's of how good an defensive game you can develop. How good depends on hockey sense. A "dumb" player can be solid defensively but can never be exceptional. A "smart" player can be. Going back to Beaulieu, one of his biggest knocks is his hockey sense.

I'm not sure why you decided to split the Oleksiak posts into different parts of your posts. You keep telling me I'm overrating Oleksiak, you're selling him incredibly short. You're dead wrong about Tinordi being better. Tinordi has one thing on him, one thing, and that's defense and Tinordi is by no means better by more than a hair. Oleksiak is a much smarter player, and Oleksiak's superior skating allows Oleksiak to use his defensive talent better than Tinordi.

I really think you're basing your opinions on Oleksiak on nothing (The world juniors mean's absolutely nothing in the long run). Oleksiak is an exceptional skater for his size, one of the best, on par with Tyler Myers (Who set the benchmark for huge guys being great skaters). If Oleksiak was 6'0 tall, he still would be a great skater. Skating isn't all about speed, big men will never have elite speed, it's everything else that goes into skating. Two can play this game, you're grossly overrating Tinordi, and gorssly underrating Oleksiak.

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09-16-2012, 01:09 PM
  #69
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Give me Harrington over both. Love that guy.
Montreal has no interest in trading Beaulieu and if we wanted to trade for a d-man players like Harrington, Gormley and Ouellet are the ones we seem to be most interested in.

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09-16-2012, 01:24 PM
  #70
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Beaulieu doesn't use his size particularly well anyway. Doesn't assert himself as a 6'2 200 lbs player. He's more of a finesse guy, always ways, probably always well be. Anyways, size is irrelevant to me in this discussion. Russell didn't fail because of his size, he failed because while his offensive talent was enough to dominate juniors (And dominate more then Beaulieu did), his offensive instincts weren't good enough to translate his game to the NHL level (And let's be honest, Russell was probably as good if not better than Beaulieu defensively at 19).

Saying he's absolutely progressed because his defensive game (Which will never be great) has slightly improved since he was 17 doesn't mean he's progressed. When you're looking for progression, you're looking for him to evolve as a player.

Beaulieu hasn't done that. His offensive game is identical to the game he played at 17 (The year before his draft year) and while his defense has improved, that's not progression. He's the exact same player he was 2 years ago, with the same critical issues in his game (Bad decision making, inconsistency in utliizing his size, medicore defensive game).
So you ignore how Beaulieu has improved, and instead just say that he hasn't. Instead constantly reiterating that he hasn't progressed because of his defence. Tell me why. I want to know why you don't think he hasn't improved.

He has improved on all of those critical issues.

No. When you look for progression in a player, you at if he has improved on areas on the game that he is lacking in. Honestly, I'm extremely pessimistic when it comes to Habs prospects. I disliked the Beaulieu pick from day, and I dislike it now, but to say he hasn't progressed is just crazy.

Quote:
When you look at comparable players from his draft class (Let's use Ryan Murphy as an example), you can see the progression. In his draft year, Murphy was prone to playing like a winger instead of a defender, he was prone to going for a big hipcheck instead of staying on his man. He would pinch when he should not have pinched. He would pick bad tiems to shoot the puck. His offensive decision making was questionable. However, he made incredible progression from age 17 to age 18. He played more like a defender, made better decisions in his own zone. Knew when to pinch, when to shoot, and when to pass. His defensive game has went from bad for the OHL to actually pretty good for the OHL, and while his numbers didn't improve, his offensive game evolved to one much better suited for the NHL. You look for the same evolution in Beaulieu's game, him adapting, and it's not there.
Murphy is not comparable. Murphy is much, much better at all facets of the game. He was in his draft year, and he is now.

Quote:
On Oleksiak, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Oleksiak is very good defensively, and his mobility allows him to utilize his defensive skills much better than someone who isn't as good a skater. Unlike Tinordi (A comparable player), Oleksiak has an offensive game. Not 40-50 points, but 25-30 point potential., which is you're great defensively (Which Oleksiak has the potential to be at the NHL level), that's more than enough.

I'm not sure why it's so black and white on these boards. If you post in support of a player, you"re "enthralled" with them, if you post against a player, you "hate" them. I'm posting about Oleksiak because he absolutely belongs in the group I posted, and he's incredibly underrated because for some reason people got in their minds he wasn't very good despite that opinion not being shared by the people who've seen him the most.

There's different degree's of how good an defensive game you can develop. How good depends on hockey sense. A "dumb" player can be solid defensively but can never be exceptional. A "smart" player can be. Going back to Beaulieu, one of his biggest knocks is his hockey sense.

I'm not sure why you decided to split the Oleksiak posts into different parts of your posts. You keep telling me I'm overrating Oleksiak, you're selling him incredibly short. You're dead wrong about Tinordi being better. Tinordi has one thing on him, one thing, and that's defense and Tinordi is by no means better by more than a hair. Oleksiak is a much smarter player, and Oleksiak's superior skating allows Oleksiak to use his defensive talent better than Tinordi.

I really think you're basing your opinions on Oleksiak on nothing (The world juniors mean's absolutely nothing in the long run). Oleksiak is an exceptional skater for his size, one of the best, on par with Tyler Myers (Who set the benchmark for huge guys being great skaters). If Oleksiak was 6'0 tall, he still would be a great skater. Skating isn't all about speed, big men will never have elite speed, it's everything else that goes into skating. Two can play this game, you're grossly overrating Tinordi, and gorssly underrating Oleksiak.
I know he offensive potential. I get it. Is he good defensively? Yes. Is he great? No. Does he have high offensive potential? No. He doesn't belong with those guys. He's not as good as them now and doesn't have the same potential. Simple.

You complain about everything being so black and white on these boards, but yet you do the same thing with Beaulieu. Yet the people who see Beaulieu the most, see progression.

The world juniors may mean nothing in the long run, but the OHL season and the playoffs do, and Tinordi was better, and was much better in the playoffs (I don't know why you ignored that). Based on my views of both Oleksiak and Tinordi, I believe Tinordi is the better player. You don't. Good for you. I'm not changing my mind.

This argument has no substance, I guess time will tell who's right.

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09-16-2012, 02:00 PM
  #71
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So you ignore how Beaulieu has improved, and instead just say that he hasn't. Instead constantly reiterating that he hasn't progressed because of his defence. Tell me why. I want to know why you don't think he hasn't improved.

He has improved on all of those critical issues.

No. When you look for progression in a player, you at if he has improved on areas on the game that he is lacking in. Honestly, I'm extremely pessimistic when it comes to Habs prospects. I disliked the Beaulieu pick from day, and I dislike it now, but to say he hasn't progressed is just crazy.



Murphy is not comparable. Murphy is much, much better at all facets of the game. He was in his draft year, and he is now.



I know he offensive potential. I get it. Is he good defensively? Yes. Is he great? No. Does he have high offensive potential? No. He doesn't belong with those guys. He's not as good as them now and doesn't have the same potential. Simple.

You complain about everything being so black and white on these boards, but yet you do the same thing with Beaulieu. Yet the people who see Beaulieu the most, see progression.

The world juniors may mean nothing in the long run, but the OHL season and the playoffs do, and Tinordi was better, and was much better in the playoffs (I don't know why you ignored that). Based on my views of both Oleksiak and Tinordi, I believe Tinordi is the better player. You don't. Good for you. I'm not changing my mind.

This argument has no substance, I guess time will tell who's right.
I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it's neglible improvements, and improvements aren't progression. A player is always improving, a player is not always progressing. All progression is improvement, not all improvement is progression. For Beaulieu to progress he needs to fix his critcal issues that have persisteted him since he was 17.

And he definitely has not improved in his critical issues. Minor improvements in his defense that all defensemen get as they get older is not improving his critical issues. His critical issuese are his lack of consistency when utilizing his size. That is not fixed. His decision making on offense, still a problem, not fixed. I could go on but I've already done that in my previous posts. His defense was bad back then and it is still not good now, even if it's not as bad as it was. That is not progression. He is the exact same player as he was 2 years ago (A full year before he was drafted) besides neglible improvements.

His defense is never going to be great, so I could care less if he slighlty improves in that regard. It's his offense he will make the NHL on and if he doesn't improve in that regard he will not make the NHL. No team wants an average defensively, do-it-myself defender who isn't all that good at do-it-myself anyway, even if he's a great skater. Case in point why MA Bergeron has floated across so many teams.

I feel like I'm just repeating myself here because all you seem to be doing is saying he's progressing because his defense is better (When everything else is the same) and you're opinion is more valid because you're saying this despite you also saying you don't like him.

Murphy is a comparable player type, and I know that he is better because I probably had 200-300 posts on Murphy during his draft year. Doesn't change that Murphy is someone who played a similar game yet evolved it, while Beaulieu has not done that despite being a year older.

Oleksiak is great defensively, and his mobility only helps in that regard. Most players of Oleksiaks defensive caliber have less offensive potential than Oleksiak (Such as Tinordi, who has virtually none). A combination of Oleksiaks, size, defensive ability, mobility and offensive potential are more than enough to put him in that regard. I named 22 defensemen, and Oleksiak is absolutely a top 25 defensemen prospect. I would probably have him to the end of that list, but he absolutely belongs there. I don't like putting stock into draft position but he was taken 14th for a reason and unlike some defensemen Oleksiak wasn't exactly thought to be an extremely safe pick.

Tinordi may have been better than pre-Niagara Oleksiak, but Oleksiak in Niagara blows him out of the water. His defense was steadily improving with Saginaw, and went to another level with Niagara. Even without prime ES or PP minutes (Which greatly exagerated Hamilton's numbers), Oleksiak showed an offensive game in Niagara, one that Tinoridi has never shown in hisl ife. I'll give you that Tinordi was better in the playoffs, but poor performances in the playoffs don't neccesairly mean a whole lot. Strome had a weak playoffs but it means nothing in the long run. (And I realize he was PPG, but PPG doesn't mean you had a strong playoffs).

Back to Beaulieu, the people that have seen Beaulieu have seen progression? Since when. People who were some of Beaulieu's biggest supporters in his draft year have noted this lack of progression. It's only Habs fans, many of whom thought the pick was a "steal" on draft day, that say he's progressed.

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09-16-2012, 02:27 PM
  #72
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I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying it's neglible improvements, and improvements aren't progression. A player is always improving, a player is not always progressing. All progression is improvement, not all improvement is progression. For Beaulieu to progress he needs to fix his critcal issues that have persisteted him since he was 17.

And he definitely has not improved in his critical issues. Minor improvements in his defense that all defensemen get as they get older is not improving his critical issues. His critical issuese are his lack of consistency when utilizing his size. That is not fixed. His decision making on offense, still a problem, not fixed. I could go on but I've already done that in my previous posts. His defense was bad back then and it is still not good now, even if it's not as bad as it was. That is not progression. He is the exact same player as he was 2 years ago (A full year before he was drafted) besides neglible improvements.

His defense is never going to be great, so I could care less if he slighlty improves in that regard. It's his offense he will make the NHL on and if he doesn't improve in that regard he will not make the NHL. No team wants an average defensively, do-it-myself defender who isn't all that good at do-it-myself anyway, even if he's a great skater. Case in point why MA Bergeron has floated across so many teams.
(To the bolded) That's a very, very good point.

Beaulieu has fixed those issues, but he's certainly improved on them. His defense is never going to be great. Well no ****. How many times are you going to say that? He's offensive defenseman, drafted for his offense, and not his defense. He's made significant progress defensively, whether you want to admit or not. Just because some people that post on board say that he hasn't (or has) improved, doesn't make it true. Watch him and form your own opinion.

Bergeron has a slapshot and that's it. He's not a very good skater. Not a good comparison.

Quote:
I feel like I'm just repeating myself here because all you seem to be doing is saying he's progressing because his defense is better (When everything else is the same) and you're opinion is more valid because you're saying this despite you also saying you don't like him.
As do I. You're not presenting anything new, you just keep saying that he hasn't gotten better. I mentioned how he's improved various factors, and you say just no in an overly explanatory way.

Quote:
Murphy is a comparable player type, and I know that he is better because I probably had 200-300 posts on Murphy during his draft year. Doesn't change that Murphy is someone who played a similar game yet evolved it, while Beaulieu has not done that despite being a year older.

Oleksiak is great defensively, and his mobility only helps in that regard. Most players of Oleksiaks defensive caliber have less offensive potential than Oleksiak (Such as Tinordi, who has virtually none). A combination of Oleksiaks, size, defensive ability, mobility and offensive potential are more than enough to put him in that regard. I named 22 defensemen, and Oleksiak is absolutely a top 25 defensemen prospect. I would probably have him to the end of that list, but he absolutely belongs there. I don't like putting stock into draft position but he was taken 14th for a reason and unlike some defensemen Oleksiak wasn't exactly thought to be an extremely safe pick.

Tinordi may have been better than pre-Niagara Oleksiak, but Oleksiak in Niagara blows him out of the water. His defense was steadily improving with Saginaw, and went to another level with Niagara. Even without prime ES or PP minutes (Which greatly exagerated Hamilton's numbers), Oleksiak showed an offensive game in Niagara, one that Tinoridi has never shown in hisl ife. I'll give you that Tinordi was better in the playoffs, but poor performances in the playoffs don't neccesairly mean a whole lot. Strome had a weak playoffs but it means nothing in the long run. (And I realize he was PPG, but PPG doesn't mean you had a strong playoffs).
Quit presenting your argument like you're talking to an idiot. You're stating the obvious continually to make your posts seem longer.

Quote:
Back to Beaulieu, the people that have seen Beaulieu have seen progression? Since when. People who were some of Beaulieu's biggest supporters in his draft year have noted this lack of progression. It's only Habs fans, many of whom thought the pick was a "steal" on draft day, that say he's progressed.
He's not in my top 25, and he's not my top 30 either.

World Juniors don't mean anything, playoffs don't mean anything. Soon a season won't mean anything.

I don't care what those people think, I see progression. Conversely, I don't care what those Habs think about the pick either, just because we root for the same team, doesn't mean that we all share the same opinion.


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09-16-2012, 02:43 PM
  #73
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With the question marks around Subban's point shot Beaulieu is next hope to run our powerplay. He wont be leaving for a grab bag of who knows what.

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09-16-2012, 06:09 PM
  #74
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It doesn't take a genius to see that Faidh's opinion on Beaulieu is unchangeable. That being said, as a guy who has watched Nathan Beaulieu play about 100 times over the last four years, I completely disagree with some of these statements. How do you come up with the statement that he is the exact same player he was two years ago? Beaulieu matured into a dependable defender in Saint John, despite the fact that everyone raves about his offensive game. He occassionally makes poor decisions, but I have watched his decision-making improve which makes me feel that with good coaching he'll continue to improve. And to say he doesn't use his size effectively, well, I guess I'm not following that one either. Not sure why you feel this way other than he doesn't have a slew of fighting majors on his stat sheet. But as far as that goes, when Beaulieu did fight he'd usually pound the crap out of his opponent.

Anyhow, I expect my opinion will be discounted for a variety of reasons. Either way, it's still my opinion that there are some serious errors in Faidh's review of Beaulieu.

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09-16-2012, 08:32 PM
  #75
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It doesn't take a genius to see that Faidh's opinion on Beaulieu is unchangeable. That being said, as a guy who has watched Nathan Beaulieu play about 100 times over the last four years, I completely disagree with some of these statements. How do you come up with the statement that he is the exact same player he was two years ago? Beaulieu matured into a dependable defender in Saint John, despite the fact that everyone raves about his offensive game. He occassionally makes poor decisions, but I have watched his decision-making improve which makes me feel that with good coaching he'll continue to improve. And to say he doesn't use his size effectively, well, I guess I'm not following that one either. Not sure why you feel this way other than he doesn't have a slew of fighting majors on his stat sheet. But as far as that goes, when Beaulieu did fight he'd usually pound the crap out of his opponent.

Anyhow, I expect my opinion will be discounted for a variety of reasons. Either way, it's still my opinion that there are some serious errors in Faidh's review of Beaulieu.
I agree. Faidh's review of Beaulieu is way off.
First i will admit i'm a Habs fan but i have also watched Beaulieu play sinced he joined the Seadogs and he has Grown and matured into a reliable defenseman on the Seadogs and will keep on improving.I really get a kick how some people will knock other players without hardly ever watching them.Seems that happens a lot on this board.
I'm really curious how many times Faidh ar Rud Eigin has watched Beaulieu play. I would say by his quote not very much, Maybe a handfull of games and no one can judge any player by watching him a handful of games..Beaulieu didn't play much in Ontario the last 4 seasons which is exactly where Faidh ar Rud Eigin file says he's located.


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