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1987 Canada Cup: CCCP vs Canada - Game One, Two & Three

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Old
09-14-2012, 11:00 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
They don't even acknowledge we HAVE won the WHC and all of them have been on European soil, not one of them have been on Canadian or North American land.
In your spare time you may want to look up where was the WHC held in 2008.

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09-14-2012, 11:03 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I think if you remove 99 & 66 the Soviets would have easily beaten Canada because their skill level was impressive and they played really well as a team, they had chemistry, it was obvious they had experience playing together.
I say: eliminate #99, and the Soviets would win. Or add #20.

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09-14-2012, 11:40 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
I wish these games were available in high definition. And frankly, the lockout will enrage me, and I hope they keep replaying some of these old games.

The speed and skill in these games is the best I've ever seen by far. The pace, specifically the high-speed passing and skill plays is just not seen in today's dump-chase-cycle game.
Today's game is too much based on systems. Teams play not to lose rather to win games.

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09-15-2012, 12:22 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I say: eliminate #99, and the Soviets would win. Or add #20.
Definitely. But then again, I think that if most tournaments MVPs are removed from the mix, their team would be in trouble.

Still, the games were so close, and the level of competition was so great, that I think its rather obvious the Soviets take this series if Gretzky hadn't participated.

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09-15-2012, 04:04 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
Definitely. But then again, I think that if most tournaments MVPs are removed from the mix, their team would be in trouble.

Still, the games were so close, and the level of competition was so great, that I think its rather obvious the Soviets take this series if Gretzky hadn't participated.
Gretzky was in on more than half of Team Canada's goals....so yes, you're correct.

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09-15-2012, 04:30 AM
  #106
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[QUOTE=espo;54307395]It get's even better then that.

They don't even acknowledge we HAVE won the WHC and all of them have been on European soil, not one of them have been on Canadian or North American land.


Like you said before, if the Russians lose in Sochi... we'll all have a grand laugh for all their nonsensical dribble about Canada can only win in NA. I'm sure there'll be no more arguing between us, the debate will be over and settled! At least from our perspective... they may want to continue it a while longer, but they'll be met with only laughter! We'll be laughing too hard to argue seriously.

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09-15-2012, 12:00 PM
  #107
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[QUOTE=Mr Writer;54335553]
Quote:
Originally Posted by espo View Post
It get's even better then that.

They don't even acknowledge we HAVE won the WHC and all of them have been on European soil, not one of them have been on Canadian or North American land.


Like you said before, if the Russians lose in Sochi... we'll all have a grand laugh for all their nonsensical dribble about Canada can only win in NA. I'm sure there'll be no more arguing between us, the debate will be over and settled! At least from our perspective... they may want to continue it a while longer, but they'll be met with only laughter! We'll be laughing too hard to argue seriously.
I love this argument! Do you mean: if Russia loses, or if Canada wins, or what? Russia lost in Turin, but Canada didn't win (in fact, you probably remember who eliminated who). Again, I think Russia will lose in Sochi on the weakness of their defense. But I don't think Canada will win either.

And again: world championship has been held in Quebec in 2008. I was there, I know.

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09-15-2012, 12:07 PM
  #108
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[QUOTE=Sentinel;54340841]
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post

I love this argument! Do you mean: if Russia loses, or if Canada wins, or what? Russia lost in Turin, but Canada didn't win (in fact, you probably remember who eliminated who). Again, I think Russia will lose in Sochi on the weakness of their defense. But I don't think Canada will win either.

And again: world championship has been held in Quebec in 2008. I was there, I know.
So what, I was in Moscow in 2007 when Canada won the WHC. I'm responding to the idiotic argument that Canada can't win on big ice... that idiotic argument. Vancouver doesn't count..pfff.. Canada only wins in North America... that idiotic argument!~ so ok, if it's that easy to win at home....then go do it.

and if I remember correctly, it wasn't Russia playing for gold on Home Soil in Moscow in 2007. But it was Canada playing for gold in Quebec in 2008. Hey, you can't win em all.

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09-15-2012, 01:34 PM
  #109
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If you have to revert to name-calling, you have a bigger issue. I didn't say Canada can't win on big ice. My argument is that the so-called "best on best" tournaments overwhelmingly favor Canada in their setup. When the odds don't favor Canada, Canadians have a history of playing down the importance of the tournament.

As to Canada playing for gold in Moscow... The last three WHC they didn't even make it out of the quarterfinals, did they? Their record on big ice is less than stellar.


Last edited by Sentinel: 09-15-2012 at 04:46 PM.
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09-15-2012, 01:58 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If you have to revert to name-calling, you have a bigger issue. I didn't say Canada can't win on big ice. My argument is that the so-called "best on best" tournaments overwhelmingly favor Canada in their setup. When the odds don't favor Canada, Canadians have a history of playing down the importance tournament.

As to Canada playing for gold in Moscow... The last three WHC they didn't even make it out the quarterfinals, did they? Their record on big ice is less than stellar.

I didn't revert to any name-calling...a quantified the argument as idiotic.

And over the past 10 years our record on big ice is better than anybody else... all IIHF tournaments at all age groups, add them up.

If you are interested in Canada's record on big ice compared to Russia record on big ice in the past 10 years since 2002.

Canada WHC Olympics U20 IIHF U18 and Ivan Hlinka Canada 15 gold medals on Big Ice. Salt Lake City 2002 was International Ice.

Russia since 2002 Gold medals on big ice = 4. 2 IIHF WHC and 2 IIHF U18.

Now, whose record again is less than stellar?


Last edited by Mr Writer: 09-15-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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09-15-2012, 02:28 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If you have to revert to name-calling, you have a bigger issue. I didn't say Canada can't win on big ice. My argument is that the so-called "best on best" tournaments overwhelmingly favor Canada in their setup. When the odds don't favor Canada, Canadians have a history of playing down the importance tournament.

As to Canada playing for gold in Moscow... The last three WHC they didn't even make it out the quarterfinals, did they? Their record on big ice is less than stellar.
And Dude, if you are going to make an argument, then at least get your facts straight. Canada played in the QF in all 3 years. In 2010 coming off the Olympics, they sent a crappy team, they made it to the QF. It happens, can't win em all.

2011 again played in the QF. They lost, **** happens!

2012 played in the QF the teams was actually not bad, should have beaten Slovakia in the QF... but the Slovaks played an inspired game.. good for them...

So, again...if you want to argue, get your facts straight.

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09-15-2012, 04:26 PM
  #112
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A few interesting facts taken from the Toronto Star and The Globe & Mail:

* The likes of Doug Crossman and James Patrick were the beneficaries after injuries to Paul Reinhart, Kevin Lowe and Doug Wilson put them out of the defence mix. Larry Robinson, meanwhile, was committed to a polo tournament (That's not a joke).

* The first group of cuts included Hall of Famers Steve Yzerman, Al MacInnis and Dino Ciccarelli, as well as Kirk Muller, Tony Tanti and Doug Lidster.

* Fellow Hall of Famers Scott Stevens, Patrick Roy and Cam Neely were later cleaved, and if was just based on training camp, most writers thought Wendel Clark deserved a spot.

* Sylvain Turgeon really didn't get a chance to make an impression, when Ron Hextall unintentionally (he said) broke a bone in Turgeon's arm early on with his goal stick.

* Hextall and HNIC's Kelly Hrudey were the support for Grant Fuhr. Roy's fuming re: Mike Keenan was rendered quaint after his volcanic reaction to Mario Tremblay eight years on.

* The Soviets drilled Canada 9-4 in an exhibition three weeks before the legendary final.

* Lemieux scored 11 of Canada's 41 goals.

* Next highest scorer on the team was Hawerchuk, with four goals.

* Gretzky set up 18 of the 38 goals he didn't score himself (47%), and was in on 21 of Canada's 41 goals (51%).

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09-15-2012, 04:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
And Dude, if you are going to make an argument, then at least get your facts straight. Canada played in the QF in all 3 years. In 2010 coming off the Olympics, they sent a crappy team, they made it to the QF. It happens, can't win em all.

2011 again played in the QF. They lost, **** happens!

2012 played in the QF the teams was actually not bad, should have beaten Slovakia in the QF... but the Slovaks played an inspired game.. good for them...

So, again...if you want to argue, get your facts straight.
I don't need to check my facts, I need to make sure my Droid phone doesn't eat some of the words. They didn't MAKE IT OUT OF THE QUARTERFINALS for three years straight. Feeling better now?

Russia won THREE WHC's, not two (2008, 2009, and 2012). U18 champs? European teams historically don't do well at young age. They get better as they mature.

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09-15-2012, 07:00 PM
  #114
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Maybe this has been covered but...

Real quick, can someone explain to me how playing in 'neutral sites' like Nagano or Turin is supposed to be more difficult for Team Canada than playing the U.S in the U.S in front of an American crowd?

Thats where the, 'Canada cant win outside North America' argument breaks down for me.

Also... Who cares? What does that prove anyway? Kind of irrelevant trivia more than 'black mark' IMO

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09-15-2012, 07:42 PM
  #115
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Remember the (unprecedented) "second gold medal" awarded to Canadian Olympic skaters in SLC? I guarantee you: this could never happen in a non-pro-Canadian market.

Again, I think Canadians won all their victories fair and square (except 1987, where I still see the bias... a European referee would have Tocchet, Sutter, and other goons in a penalty box for the duration of the game). But to dispute that every virtually "best on best" was tailored for Canada to win is just silly.

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09-15-2012, 07:54 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Remember the (unprecedented) "second gold medal" awarded to Canadian Olympic skaters in SLC? I guarantee you: this could never happen in a non-pro-Canadian market.

Again, I think Canadians won all their victories fair and square (except 1987, where I still see the bias... a European referee would have Tocchet, Sutter, and other goons in a penalty box for the duration of the game). But to dispute that every virtually "best on best" was tailored for Canada to win is just silly.
Oh boy... sour grapes?

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09-15-2012, 08:35 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Remember the (unprecedented) "second gold medal" awarded to Canadian Olympic skaters in SLC? I guarantee you: this could never happen in a non-pro-Canadian market.

Again, I think Canadians won all their victories fair and square (except 1987, where I still see the bias... a European referee would have Tocchet, Sutter, and other goons in a penalty box for the duration of the game). But to dispute that every virtually "best on best" was tailored for Canada to win is just silly.
Yes, Canada is such a powerful nation on the international stage that we can get our athletes awarded extra medals. Too bad RUSSIA doesn't have the same political influence.

And actually, disputing that Canada has been favoured in every international tournament is the opposite of silly. I dispute it for the same reasons why I dispute 9/11 conspiracies: because I think one's opinions should be based on some form of actual evidence.

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09-15-2012, 09:17 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Remember the (unprecedented) "second gold medal" awarded to Canadian Olympic skaters in SLC? I guarantee you: this could never happen in a non-pro-Canadian market.

Again, I think Canadians won all their victories fair and square (except 1987, where I still see the bias... a European referee would have Tocchet, Sutter, and other goons in a penalty box for the duration of the game). But to dispute that every virtually "best on best" was tailored for Canada to win is just silly.
How exactly are best on best "tailored" for Canada to win?

Could it be because when Canada gets to bring all it's best players they have a better than average chance of winning the tournament? When Canada wins its because they are the best team, not because the tournament is rigged in their favor.

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09-15-2012, 09:18 PM
  #119
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List all "best on best" tournaments, see which ones of them were not held in North America (I'll give you a hint: half of 1972, 1998, and 2006), and see how well did Canada do. If that's not facts, I don't know what "fact" is.

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09-15-2012, 09:51 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
List all "best on best" tournaments, see which ones of them were not held in North America (I'll give you a hint: half of 1972, 1998, and 2006), and see how well did Canada do. If that's not facts, I don't know what "fact" is.
I guess I don't see the connection between where a tournament is held and whether or not the tournament is "tailored" for someone to win. Are you suggesting that every host country naturally "tailors" the tournament for the home team to win? The fact that you think Canada's victories on FOREIGN soil in the United States are somehow diminished because it is in North America is utterly absurd.

When Canada consistently wins best on best under a variety of different formats it is because Canada is the best in those tournaments. Period.

If you're looking for facts, out of all the international best on best tournaments (76 Canada Cup, 81 Canada Cup, 84 Canada Cup, 87 Canada Cup, 91 Canada Cup, 96 World Cup, 98 Olympics, 02 Olympics, 04 World Cup, 06 Olympics, 10 Olympics), Canada has won seven of them, with no other nation winning more than one. That is dominance, nothing else.

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09-15-2012, 10:27 PM
  #121
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I guess I don't see the connection between where a tournament is held and whether or not the tournament is "tailored" for someone to win. Are you suggesting that every host country naturally "tailors" the tournament for the home team to win? The fact that you think Canada's victories on FOREIGN soil in the United States are somehow diminished because it is in North America is utterly absurd.

When Canada consistently wins best on best under a variety of different formats it is because Canada is the best in those tournaments. Period.

If you're looking for facts, out of all the international best on best tournaments (76 Canada Cup, 81 Canada Cup, 84 Canada Cup, 87 Canada Cup, 91 Canada Cup, 96 World Cup, 98 Olympics, 02 Olympics, 04 World Cup, 06 Olympics, 10 Olympics), Canada has won seven of them, with no other nation winning more than one. That is dominance, nothing else.
Alas, because you don't "see the connection," doesn't mean it's not there. 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups saw the Soviet teams that were FAR from their best lineups (and if you say "it's their problem," I'll bring every WHC and Olympics into this debate, with Canada's record being quite subpar). So Canada won 6 out of 9 events. 7 out of 9 were held in North America. NHL officiating, NHL-size rinks, TV's interest in Canada advancing, large Canadian presence, etc. Like I said before: imagine the entire SC PO 2012 being played in New Jersey. Would you say it helped Devils' chances? Would you say it was rigged then? This is not some "cookie conspiracy"; it's quite obvious. Both times the "best on best" format was held on neutral territory (Japan and Italy), Canada failed to medal.


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09-16-2012, 04:45 AM
  #122
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I don't need to check my facts, I need to make sure my Droid phone doesn't eat some of the words. They didn't MAKE IT OUT OF THE QUARTERFINALS for three years straight. Feeling better now?

Russia won THREE WHC's, not two (2008, 2009, and 2012). U18 champs? European teams historically don't do well at young age. They get better as they mature.
Can you follow an argument or not? if you are unable to follow, then get out of the game, because obviously you seem to be challenged in keeping up. The question was whose record on big ice was less than stellar... "Big Ice......less than stellar" Those were your words, they're not mine! I gave you the facts... Russia in the past 10 years at the WHC have won twice on ON BIG ICE! Canada 3 times. What you want to do with the rest of the stats from the other IIHF tournaments - Canada's record as compared to Russia's record, is entirely up to you... I don' give a **** how you interpret them... I know what they mean and so does every other Canadian hockey fan. Do you understand now or should I write in Russian? Because I can if I need to...


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09-16-2012, 04:57 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If you have to revert to name-calling, you have a bigger issue. I didn't say Canada can't win on big ice. My argument is that the so-called "best on best" tournaments overwhelmingly favor Canada in their setup. When the odds don't favor Canada, Canadians have a history of playing down the importance of the tournament.

As to Canada playing for gold in Moscow... The last three WHC they didn't even make it out of the quarterfinals, did they? Their record on big ice is less than stellar.
And what did you say about the U18 tournaments? When the odds are not in your favor who tends to downplay the importance of tournaments? who's downplaying now?

you know if the Big Red Machine was actually The Big Red Machine, then you think they could have won more than 1 (1981) Best on Best Tournament regardless of tournament format and where said tournament was played... Big Red Hype.


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09-16-2012, 05:48 AM
  #124
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Alas, because you don't "see the connection," doesn't mean it's not there. 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups saw the Soviet teams that were FAR from their best lineups (and if you say "it's their problem," I'll bring every WHC and Olympics into this debate, with Canada's record being quite subpar). So Canada won 6 out of 9 events. 7 out of 9 were held in North America. NHL officiating, NHL-size rinks, TV's interest in Canada advancing, large Canadian presence, etc. Like I said before: imagine the entire SC PO 2012 being played in New Jersey. Would you say it helped Devils' chances? Would you say it was rigged then? This is not some "cookie conspiracy"; it's quite obvious. Both times the "best on best" format was held on neutral territory (Japan and Italy), Canada failed to medal.
Ok then, it's quite obvious, 2014 will not be on neutral territory, the odds are stacked against us.... Russian soil = guaranteed gold medal for Russia then?

The only thing is, We held serve on our turf Lets see what Malkin and the boys can do in Sochi. So, I return to my original argument then, if Canada doesn't win in Sochi... so what!!! no big deal!! If Russia fails to win gold on home soil.... can't win on home soil, well that's just going to be a real kick in the a$$ I'll enjoy that little debacle quite nicely, hell.... I'll even pay to see that.

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09-16-2012, 07:15 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Alas, because you don't "see the connection," doesn't mean it's not there. 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups saw the Soviet teams that were FAR from their best lineups (and if you say "it's their problem," I'll bring every WHC and Olympics into this debate, with Canada's record being quite subpar). So Canada won 6 out of 9 events. 7 out of 9 were held in North America. NHL officiating, NHL-size rinks, TV's interest in Canada advancing, large Canadian presence, etc. Like I said before: imagine the entire SC PO 2012 being played in New Jersey. Would you say it helped Devils' chances? Would you say it was rigged then? This is not some "cookie conspiracy"; it's quite obvious. Both times the "best on best" format was held on neutral territory (Japan and Italy), Canada failed to medal.
How many times does it have to be pointed out that the Canada Cups used refs and linesmen from all countries before this myth ends?

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