Here's all players with 4 or more 50-goal seasons:
9 - Mike Bossy, Wayne Gretzky
6 - Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mario Lemieux
5 - Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure
4 - Michel Goulet, Jari Kurri, Tim Kerr, Alexander Ovechkin
All of them minus Ovechkin, who is a lock, are Hall of Famers.
How come Kerr never gets consideration whatsoever?
Somehow, I can't help but compare him to Neely. Both power forwards with injuries slowing them down for most of their career, who still managed to score 50+ a few times and have a few nice playoff runs.
For a four year streak he was arguably a top-3 goal scorer in the NHL.
Can't see Kerr getting in if the late Rick Martin hasn't gotten in either after all of these years; both of them have comparable career stats (Martin: 384 goals in 685 NHL games, and Kerr 370 in 655). Bure, who only played 702 games in the NHL, had a pretty lengthy wait.
Do both deserve to be in the Hall? Really borderline.
Here's all players with 4 or more 50-goal seasons:
9 - Mike Bossy, Wayne Gretzky
6 - Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mario Lemieux
5 - Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure
4 - Michel Goulet, Jari Kurri, Tim Kerr, Alexander Ovechkin
All of them minus Ovechkin, who is a lock, are Hall of Famers.
How come Kerr never gets consideration whatsoever?
Somehow, I can't help but compare him to Neely. Both power forwards with injuries slowing them down for most of their career, who still managed to score 50+ a few times and have a few nice playoff runs.
For a four year streak he was arguably a top-3 goal scorer in the NHL.
kerr has nice playoff numbers, and clearly was a good playoff performer. but if we're comparing him to neely, it has to be noted that he missed significant portions of both of his team's runs to the finals.
Might have put up similar goal totals to Neely, but was nowhere near the all-around player and physical presence that Neely was.
Only had 5 seasons over 40 adjusted points. For the sake of comparison, Neely had 8 and Bure had 10. Even in the realm of guys with short primes, Kerr's was *really* short.
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And quite frankly, he was just an ugly player to watch. And this matters - it isn't the Hall of Statistics.
How you played the game is important. If you're Pavel Bure or Guy Lafleur and sell tickets, capture the imagination of the fans, play the game the way it was meant to be played, that's a huge point in your favour.
When you're a plodding garbage goal specialist like Kerr or Dave Andreychuk, you'd better do something really special to go the HHOF. And those guys didn't. Nobody ever bought a ticket to watch Tim Kerr play, and nobody will remember him 50 years from now.
4 full seasons, three injury-shortened seasons and a half season.
Too bad, he could have had a HHOF career. For sure, he had a noteworthy 4-year peak.
He had 5 significant seasons in all, and three postseasons. he's the cut-off point for HHOF consideration. The questn is: which side does he fall on? hall worthy or just short of it?
Here's all players with 4 or more 50-goal seasons:
9 - Mike Bossy, Wayne Gretzky
6 - Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mario Lemieux
5 - Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure
4 - Michel Goulet, Jari Kurri, Tim Kerr, Alexander Ovechkin
All of them minus Ovechkin, who is a lock, are Hall of Famers.
How come Kerr never gets consideration whatsoever?
Somehow, I can't help but compare him to Neely. Both power forwards with injuries slowing them down for most of their career, who still managed to score 50+ a few times and have a few nice playoff runs.
For a four year streak he was arguably a top-3 goal scorer in the NHL.
Because 50 goals is an arbitrary BS number to judge people by. Kerr was good but nowhere near dominant enough to warrant HOF consideration.
BTW: Ovechkin has accomplished more in his career than Kurri, Goulet and Bure.
Because 50 goals is an arbitrary BS number to judge people by. Kerr was good but nowhere near dominant enough to warrant HOF consideration.
BTW: Ovechkin has accomplished more in his career than Kurri, Goulet and Bure.
I can understand the other two names. But Kurri? You really think Ovechkin in his 7 years has trumped Kurri in his full career?
But back to the original question. Kerr is similar to Martin and for that matter Neely when you judge career value. Of all the three I wouldn't have inducted anyone but Neely was a sentimental choice to get in so I guess that counts.
Maybe without Kerr's injuries he puts up numbers that are too hard to ignore for the HHOF. But he didn't.
the interesting thing for me with those late 80s flyers is that as a powerhouse, they never won a cup but were they much worse than the flames of the same era?
those flames have the following hall of famers: macinnis, gilmour, mullen, nieuwendyk, and mcdonald.
those flyers have one: howe. granted, all of those flames had significant careers outside of calgary '86-'91. still, it feels weirdly imbalanced to me. not to say kerr should be a hall of famer, but i would have liked to see one more flyer being recognized for that team's success (propp is obviously the best candidate) and maybe at least one less flame (nieuwendyk is the guy i'd take out, and i like mullen a lot but i have a hard time putting him ahead of propp).
even the bruins that made two finals have two hall of famers: bourque and neely. as others have noted, neely is ahead of kerr-- neely has fewer absolutely top end regular seasons, but more relevant regular seasons overall; neely has the significantly better playoff resume, due partly to being more durable (which really goes to show how un-durable kerr was, and neely was the more stylistically memorable player, which i think counts for something). but again, the argument for propp is that if the other bridesmaid teams of that era get multiple hall of famers, i feel like those flyers should have two.
(habs have two as well: roy and chelios; not counting gainey and robinson, though robinson maybe should count.)
Here's all players with 4 or more 50-goal seasons:
9 - Mike Bossy, Wayne Gretzky
6 - Guy Lafleur, Marcel Dionne, Mario Lemieux
5 - Bobby Hull, Phil Esposito, Steve Yzerman, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure
4 - Michel Goulet, Jari Kurri, Tim Kerr, Alexander Ovechkin
All of them minus Ovechkin, who is a lock, are Hall of Famers.
How come Kerr never gets consideration whatsoever?
Somehow, I can't help but compare him to Neely. Both power forwards with injuries slowing them down for most of their career, who still managed to score 50+ a few times and have a few nice playoff runs.
For a four year streak he was arguably a top-3 goal scorer in the NHL.
24- The total number of non-Kerr 50 goal seasons that took place during his four 50 goal seasons. Just for comparisons sake, there's been 17 total post-lockout 50 goal seasons.
24- The total number of non-Kerr 50 goal seasons that took place during his four 50 goal seasons. Just for comparisons sake, there's been 17 total post-lockout 50 goal seasons.
maybe so, but i think dennis bonvie is right that kerr is being underrated here.
kerr scored 58, 58, 54, 54, and 48 (in 69 games) at his six year peak. finishes: 2, 3, 3, 6, 9. the number 50 is arbitrary, but 3 top threes and 5 top tens in six years in not.
here's a list of modern players with three top threes AND five top tens. it's less exclusive than the list of players with four 50 goal seasons, but still amazing company. among guys with high peaks and shortened careers, rick martin doesn't make the cut, neither does cam neely. not even dickie moore.
note also that jari kurri and michel goulet don't have 3 top threes AND 5 top tens.
these would be kerr's peers:
toe blake (3 top threes, 5 top tens)*
rocket richard (9 top threes, 13 top tens)
roy conacher (5 top threes, 8 top tens)*
ted lindsay (4 top threes, 10 top tens)*
gordie howe (12 top threes, 19 top tens)
boom boom geoffrion (4 top threes, 8 top tens)
jean beliveau (5 top threes, 10 top tens)
bobby hull (10 top threes, 13 top tens)
frank mahovlich (5 top threes, 8 top tens)
stan mikita (4 top threes, 7 top tens)
phil esposito (7 top threes, 9 top tens)
guy lafleur (5 top threes, 6 top tens)
marcel dionne (3 top threes, 9 top tens)
mike bossy (7 top threes, 9 top tens)
wayne gretzky (5 top threes, 9 top tens)
mario lemieux (6 top threes, 9 top tens)
steve yzerman (3 top threes, 6 top tens)
brett hull (4 top threes, 8 top tens)
teemu selanne (5 top threes, 6 top tens)
pavel bure (4 top threes, 5 top tens)
jaromir jagr (5 top threes, 8 top tens)
ilya kovalchuk (3 top threes, 8 top tens)
alex ovechkin (4 top threes, 6 top tens)
all are hall of famers except the three active players. of those three, jagr and ovechkin are stone cold locks. * denotes players whose finishes may have been affected by weaker competition due to war years and/or immediate post-war years.
if you stretch the criteria to 3 top fives AND 5 top tens, then you get lesser lights like sid smith and camille henry. rick martin makes that list, as does john leclair. still no neely.
I can understand the other two names. But Kurri? You really think Ovechkin in his 7 years has trumped Kurri in his full career?
But back to the original question. Kerr is similar to Martin and for that matter Neely when you judge career value. Of all the three I wouldn't have inducted anyone but Neely was a sentimental choice to get in so I guess that counts.
Maybe without Kerr's injuries he puts up numbers that are too hard to ignore for the HHOF. But he didn't.
Yes, Ovechkin is ahead of Kurri, IMO. Ovie has been regarded highly in Hart balloting, Kurri never was. Although a great scorer, Kurri is a level below Ovechkin in my opinion - Ovechkin has impacted the game more and his Hart ballots reflect that.
I used to love watching Tim Kerr play. That says a lot coming from a Pens fan.
That said, Kerr does not belong in the HHOF. Scoring was much higher then and he was pretty much the 80's version of Tomas Holmstrom.
Bad skater but was just an unmovable wall and money on the PP.
Herein lies where the difference is.
Kerr led the NHL in PP goals 3 times in those 4 seasons , (in essentially 9 or so full yrs).
Led NHL in PP goals:
Neely - 1
Ovechkin - 1
Bure - 1 (SH goals - 1)
Andreychuk - 2 (in 23 years)
Brett Hull - 3 (in 18 yrs)
Selanne - 2 (in 19 yrs)
Bondra - 2 (SH goals 1) in 17 yrs.
Lemieux - 2 (SH - 3)
Bossy - 3 (scored 200 more goals in 100 more games than Kerr)
Gretzky - 1 (SH - 5)
Esposito - 5 (SH - 1)
Secord - 1
Nieuwendyk - 1
He has a small EV goals to PP goals ratio, generally making him a "special teams" player.
Andreychuk 1.3:1
Ryan Smyth 1.38:1 (374 career goals)
Bellows 1.38:1 (485 career goals)
Kevin Stevens 1.46:1 (329 career goals) Kerr 1.47:1 (370 career goals)
Tkacuk 1.48:1
Heatley 1.51:1 (349 career goals)
Nieuwendyk 1.57:1
Larmer 1.57:1
Owen Nolan 1.57:1
Muller 1.58:1
Mellanby 1.59:1
Ciccarelli 1.62:1
Roenick 1.64:1
Selanne 1.65:1
Hejduk 1.65:1 (371 career goals)
Pierre Turgeon 1.66:1
Yashin 1.66:1 (337 career goals)
Shanahan 1.67:1
Doug Wilson 1.68:1
Robitaille 1.69:1
Daniel Sedin 1.71:1
Sylvain Turgeon 1.72:1
Brett Hull 1.72:1
Mario Lemieux 1.72:1
Simmer 1.72:1
Hawerchuk 1.77:1
Kariya 1.77:1
Neely 1.77:1
Verbeek 1.78:1
Esposito 1.79:1
Coffey 1.79:1 (396 career goals)
Recchi 1.8:1
Joe Thornton 1.81:1
Gilmour 1.82:1
Brind'Amour 1.85:1
Ray Sheppard 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Bobby Smith 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Greg Adams 1.85:1 (355 career goals)
Ron Francis 1.86:1
Arnott 1.86:1
Sykora 1.86:1
Sakic 1.89:1
Bertuzzi 1.9:1 (303 career goals)
Alfredsson 1.91:1
LaFontaine 1.93:1
Kovalchuk 1.94:1 (406 career goals)
Bernie Nicholls 1.94:1
Goulet 1.99:1
Vaive 2.01:1
Trevor Linden 2:1 (375 career goals)
Ovechkin 2.02:1
Dionne 2.04:1
Stastny 2.06:1
Federko 2.08:1 (369 career goals)
Markus Naslund 2.09:1 (395 career goals)
Fedorov 2.1:1
Bossy 2.12:1
MacLeish 2.13:1 (349 career goals)
Trottier 2.14:1
Ray Ferraro 2.14:1 (408 career goals)
Bondra 2.16:1
Gartner 2.16:1
Iginla 2.16:1
Sittler 2.16:1
Marleau 2.17:1 (387 career goals)
Kovalev 2.17:1 (428 career goals)
Yzerman 2.18:1
Damphousse 2.19:1
Oates 2.19:1 (341 career goals)
Anderson 2.21:1
Mogilny 2.21:1
Marian Hossa 2.21:1 (417 career goals)
Ogrodnick 2.25:1 (402 career goals)
Dave Christian 2.25:1 (340 career goals)
Wendel Clark 2.27:1 (330 career goals)
Claude Lemieux 2.27:1 (379 career goals)
Joe Mullen 2.27:1
Crosby 2.28:1
Tocchet 2.28:1
Forsberg 2.28:1
Bobby Clarke 2.29:1 (358 career goals)
Lindros 2.29:1 (372 career goals)
Guerin 2.29:1 (429 career goals)
Bure 2.33:1
Sundin 2.33:1
Orr 2.34:1
Rick Martin 2.34:1 (384 career goals)
Lecavalier 2.36:1 (373 career goals)
Propp 2.36:1 (425 career goals)
Modano 2.39:1
Dale Hunter 2.4:1 (323 career goals)
Geoff Courtnall 2.41:1 (367 career goals)
Leclair 2.43:1 (406 career goals)
Gillies 2.43:1 (319 career goals)
Ray Whitney 2.43:1 (365 career goals)
Jagr 2.46:1
Berenson 2.46:1
Boldirev 2.51:1 (361 career goals)
St. Louis 2.51:1 (323 career goals)
McDonald 2.52:1
Messier 2.53:1
Denis Savard 2.57:1
Rick Kehoe 2.63:1 (371 career goals)
Kurri 2.63:1
Middleton 2.68:1
Barber 2.74:1
Ken Hodge 2.74:1 (328 career goals)
Perreault 2.76:1
Glen Murray 2.81:1 (337 career goals)
Maruk 2.84:1 (356 career goals)
Rene Robert 2.89:1 (284 career goals)
Gary Roberts 2.9:1
Steve Thomas 2.97:1 (421 career goals)
Gretzky 3.03:1
Secord 3.14:1
Mike Foligno 3.15:1 (355 career goals)
Reggie Leach 3.27:1 (381 career goals)
Holik 3.39:1 (326 career goals)
Peter McNab 3.42:1 (363 career goals)
Tonelli 3.46:1 (325 career goals)
Butch Goring 3.72:1 (375 career goals)
Kerr led the NHL in PP goals 3 times in those 4 seasons , (in essentially 9 or so full yrs).
Led NHL in PP goals:
Neely - 1
Ovechkin - 1
Bure - 1 (SH goals - 1)
Andreychuk - 2 (in 23 years)
Brett Hull - 3 (in 18 yrs)
Selanne - 2 (in 19 yrs)
Bondra - 2 (SH goals 1) in 17 yrs.
Lemieux - 2 (SH - 3)
Bossy - 3 (scored 200 more goals in 100 more games than Kerr)
Gretzky - 1 (SH - 5)
Esposito - 5 (SH - 1)
Secord - 1
Nieuwendyk - 1
He has a small EV goals to PP goals ratio, generally making him a "special teams" player.
Andreychuk 1.3:1
Ryan Smyth 1.38:1 (374 career goals)
Bellows 1.38:1 (485 career goals)
Kevin Stevens 1.46:1 (329 career goals) Kerr 1.47:1 (370 career goals)
Tkacuk 1.48:1
Heatley 1.51:1 (349 career goals)
Nieuwendyk 1.57:1
Larmer 1.57:1
Owen Nolan 1.57:1
Muller 1.58:1
Mellanby 1.59:1
Ciccarelli 1.62:1
Roenick 1.64:1
Selanne 1.65:1
Hejduk 1.65:1 (371 career goals)
Pierre Turgeon 1.66:1
Yashin 1.66:1 (337 career goals)
Shanahan 1.67:1
Doug Wilson 1.68:1
Robitaille 1.69:1
Daniel Sedin 1.71:1
Sylvain Turgeon 1.72:1
Brett Hull 1.72:1
Mario Lemieux 1.72:1
Simmer 1.72:1
Hawerchuk 1.77:1
Kariya 1.77:1
Neely 1.77:1
Verbeek 1.78:1
Esposito 1.79:1
Coffey 1.79:1 (396 career goals)
Recchi 1.8:1
Joe Thornton 1.81:1
Gilmour 1.82:1
Brind'Amour 1.85:1
Ray Sheppard 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Bobby Smith 1.85:1 (357 career goals)
Greg Adams 1.85:1 (355 career goals)
Ron Francis 1.86:1
Arnott 1.86:1
Sykora 1.86:1
Sakic 1.89:1
Bertuzzi 1.9:1 (303 career goals)
Alfredsson 1.91:1
LaFontaine 1.93:1
Kovalchuk 1.94:1 (406 career goals)
Bernie Nicholls 1.94:1
Goulet 1.99:1
Vaive 2.01:1
Trevor Linden 2:1 (375 career goals)
Ovechkin 2.02:1
Dionne 2.04:1
Stastny 2.06:1
Federko 2.08:1 (369 career goals)
Markus Naslund 2.09:1 (395 career goals)
Fedorov 2.1:1
Bossy 2.12:1
MacLeish 2.13:1 (349 career goals)
Trottier 2.14:1
Ray Ferraro 2.14:1 (408 career goals)
Bondra 2.16:1
Gartner 2.16:1
Iginla 2.16:1
Sittler 2.16:1
Marleau 2.17:1 (387 career goals)
Kovalev 2.17:1 (428 career goals)
Yzerman 2.18:1
Damphousse 2.19:1
Oates 2.19:1 (341 career goals)
Anderson 2.21:1
Mogilny 2.21:1
Marian Hossa 2.21:1 (417 career goals)
Ogrodnick 2.25:1 (402 career goals)
Dave Christian 2.25:1 (340 career goals)
Wendel Clark 2.27:1 (330 career goals)
Claude Lemieux 2.27:1 (379 career goals)
Joe Mullen 2.27:1
Crosby 2.28:1
Tocchet 2.28:1
Forsberg 2.28:1
Bobby Clarke 2.29:1 (358 career goals)
Lindros 2.29:1 (372 career goals)
Guerin 2.29:1 (429 career goals)
Bure 2.33:1
Sundin 2.33:1
Orr 2.34:1
Rick Martin 2.34:1 (384 career goals)
Lecavalier 2.36:1 (373 career goals)
Propp 2.36:1 (425 career goals)
Modano 2.39:1
Dale Hunter 2.4:1 (323 career goals)
Geoff Courtnall 2.41:1 (367 career goals)
Leclair 2.43:1 (406 career goals)
Gillies 2.43:1 (319 career goals)
Ray Whitney 2.43:1 (365 career goals)
Jagr 2.46:1
Berenson 2.46:1
Boldirev 2.51:1 (361 career goals)
St. Louis 2.51:1 (323 career goals)
McDonald 2.52:1
Messier 2.53:1
Denis Savard 2.57:1
Rick Kehoe 2.63:1 (371 career goals)
Kurri 2.63:1
Middleton 2.68:1
Barber 2.74:1
Ken Hodge 2.74:1 (328 career goals)
Perreault 2.76:1
Glen Murray 2.81:1 (337 career goals)
Maruk 2.84:1 (356 career goals)
Rene Robert 2.89:1 (284 career goals)
Gary Roberts 2.9:1
Steve Thomas 2.97:1 (421 career goals)
Gretzky 3.03:1
Secord 3.14:1
Mike Foligno 3.15:1 (355 career goals)
Reggie Leach 3.27:1 (381 career goals)
Holik 3.39:1 (326 career goals)
Peter McNab 3.42:1 (363 career goals)
Tonelli 3.46:1 (325 career goals)
Butch Goring 3.72:1 (375 career goals)
Not like he did in the 80's IMO. Look at the goalie pads from the 80's compared to now.
players kerr outscored four times in four years: mullen, mario, gartner, ciccarelli, hawerchuk. guys kerr outscored three times in four years: goulet, anderson. guys he outscored twice in four years: kurri, bossy. the only guy he outscored less than twice: gretzky (kerr outscored gretzky once, in '86).
Agreed, although it's worth noting that his 1983-84 season is really odd in that respect.
45 ES goals that season (18th highest total all time) and only 9 PP goals. But then over the next two seasons it dropped to a 33:21 and then 24:34 ratio as he started to utterly dominate on the PP while his ES numbers fell horribly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CampingintheSnow
Not like he did in the 80's IMO. Look at the goalie pads from the 80's compared to now.
It's more a function of the style of goalies at the time. Stand up goalies (the prevailing style of the 80s) were much more vulnerable to scrambles, rebounds and deflections. The butterfly style evolved in part to take a lot of those goals away. Size of pads has very little to do with it, moreso the skill of the gentlemen who wore them.
Kerr was always a player I liked. Tremendous goal scorer during his career. That said he wasn't good at much else and won't make it to the Hall of Fame.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
