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Old
09-15-2012, 06:50 PM
  #26
glenngineer
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So let's go back to last years playoffs to see what Klein really did.

Anaheim series:

Game 1 - On ice for 2 even strength goals with an assist on one, in penalty box for PP goal against, score 4-1 good guys and their one goal was after we were up 4-0.

Game 2 - On ice for 5 on 3 PP goal against, on ice for two even strength goals against, on ice for even strength goal for us. Score 5-3 bad guys.

Game 3 - On ice for even strength goal against. Score 4-3 good guys.

Game 4 - On ice for 2 even strength goals against, on ice for 1 PP goal against, on ice for 1 even strength goal for with an assist. Score 6-3 bad guys.

Game 5 - On ice for 2 even strength goals for us(goal scored), on ice for 1 PP goal against. On ice for game winner as well. Score 4-3 good guys.

Game 6 - On ice for 2 even strength goals for us, on ice for 1 even strength goal against and on ice for 1 PP goal against. Score 4-2 good guys.

Totals
Even strength goals for: 7
Even strength goals against: 6
PP goals against: 4 (1 of which was 5 on 3), in box for a goal as well.

Vancouver series:

Game 1 - On ice for even strength goal against. Score 1-0 bad guys.

Game 2 - No goals while on ice. Score 2-1 good guys.

Game 3 - On ice for 2 PP goals against, one goal against at even strength. Score 3-2 bad guys.

Game 4 - On ice for 1 even strength goal against. Score 4-2 bad guys.

Game 5 - On ice for 3 even strength goals. Score 4-3 good guys.

Game 6 - On ice for 1 PP against, on ice for 1 even strength goal for. Score 2-1 bad guys.

Totals
On ice for even strength goals for: 4
On ice for even strength goals against: 3
On ice for PP goal against: 3

So I missed something somewhere but he is a +3 for 12 games in the playoffs with a goal and 2 assists. In both series he was on the ice for PP goals against but I don't take those as seriously as the team is a man down and singling one guy out for the failure against a man advantage does not count too much IMO. He has also been a major cog for the team over the past few years on the PK which has ranked in the top 10 and sometimes top 5 so he must be doing something right.

So while he was on the ice for quite a few goals against, at even strength he was on the ice more times for the good guys than the bad guys and at the end of the day, that's pretty good in my book. We can nitpick this all day long but his stats, for a second pair guy, who plays a lot on the PK and doesn't get any PP time look pretty favorable in my eyes. And while he was on the ice for a ton of PP goals, Anaheim's PP was on fire in the playoffs and Vancouver's isn't that shabby either. I also recall Weber and Suter getting undressed by Kesler a time or two so there is more than enough blame to go around on the back end.

Klein makes mistakes from time to time and that's what second pairing guys do. If he did it more he'd be considered a 3rd pairing guy and if he did it less he'd be a top pairing guy. The guy is solid, plays hard, plays hurt and obviously wants to be here from the contract he signed. Maybe we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, especially one that has been so valuable to us over the years.

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09-15-2012, 07:13 PM
  #27
ThirdManIn
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Klein is going to be on the ice for goals against because he plays against some of the tougher competition. Teams top players are going to score. It's just a matter of limiting how much, and then stopping their depth players from getting in on the action (ever wonder about crazy stats like Team X is 9-0-0 when [insert fourth line plug] scores? It's because they are the ones who aren't supposed to be scoring). It's just the nature of the game. He makes mistakes, and so did Lidstrom (to a lesser degree, obviously, but one of the best of all time still made mistakes). The Klein goal in Game 4 of the Detroit series comes to mind immediately, though a ton of people made mistakes on that one.

BTW when I was checking to make sure that Lidstrom was, in fact, one of the three following Erat into the corner on that play I was reminded of how awful the homer Detroit color guy is (Redmond I think). AK got called for an interference penalty. Weber back hands the puck down the ice, but not hard. "Weber back hands the puck down the ice. Unsportsmanlike, but he doesn't get called for it." Hahaha way to find small things to whine about

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09-15-2012, 07:36 PM
  #28
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Awesome!! He is from my home town!!

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09-15-2012, 07:48 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Klein makes mistakes from time to time and that's what second pairing guys do.
He does it more than time-to-time, that is the problem.

So Klein was on the ice for about 50% of our playoff goals against in 2011, and he played about 25-30% of the time. You are also conveniently leaving out his disastrous play vs the Blackhawks in 2010.

I don't give Klein credit for the Joel Ward/Jordin Tootoo offensive breakout. That's great he was on the ice for some of those goals, but he had a very small hand in them.

And you are giving Klein partial credit for us having the #1 plower play this year?

I stand by my statement-- Klein is way to mistake prone be a solid top 4 dman on a contending team. He's a ticking time bomb out there most of the time, way to mistake prone. He has very little offense and very little physical presence. The Detroit series is the best we will ever see him play.

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09-15-2012, 08:14 PM
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Great deal for a very under-rated player. Happy to have him back, hopefully we get to see some hockey this season...

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09-15-2012, 08:25 PM
  #31
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Just out of curiosity, what percentage of the games would Klein have to play to make it OK for him to have been on the ice for ~50% of the goals against in the play offs?

I don't think it works that way...

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09-15-2012, 08:58 PM
  #32
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You say 50% of the goals against but when you're a man down, is that a fair assessment of a guys worth on the team? Even strength in the playoffs you brought up, he was a plus 3 which means he was on the ice for 3 more goals than the other team scored when he was on the ice. In 12 games games that means our team was +.25 per game with him on the ice at even strength. We were better with him on the ice at even strength, plain and simple.

Using PP goals against a guy is not a fair assessment of talent. Most teams score between 15-20% on the PP which means he's going to get scored on when he's out there on the PK. It happened to Weber and Suter too.

The biggest complaint most people have had with Klein is he is not a great puck mover and he needs one to do better, much like Weber. Well, Weber had Suter, Klein has had Bouillion, Hamhuis, Blum, Zanon. Not really the stalwarts of PMD. When paired with Josi he started to shine as a defenseman. Funny how that works. People always complain about Legwand and his lack of offense but when paired with Kariya and Erat, he started showing his talents. Is it Klein's fault that he is paired with who he is? Would he have been a better player with Suter on the other side? I think guys rise and fall in their play based on them but also on who they are playing with. The same thing can be said for Weber playing with Josi this year. Will it work? Will Josi be able to step into Suter's roll and be the PMD that Weber needs or does better with? Will Blum step back into the second pairing roll with Klein or are Klein and Hannan doomed since neither move the puck very well?

I think we can all focus on whatever part of the game we so choose. I loved watching Arnott loaf back to the ice for changes and hated him for it. I hated that Johnson was a soft captain. I just hated Houlder because he sucked. Funny thing is, all those guys had their good points, although I'm still searching my brain for one about Houlder. Maybe his handlebar moustache. We can watch an entire game and miss all the good things a player does when he makes one mistake. Imagine being under that much scrutiny at work on a daily basis? I used to do that to myself and guess what, I was great at what I did but I was miserable. I would see only the one minor mistake that I might make that no one else noticed and forget about all the great things I did to make things happen during a 12-16 hour day. Point being, I see a lot of the good things the guy does on a nightly basis. I can see that you pick his game apart and that's your right. We can find fault with any player if we look hard enough. The Lidstrom play in the playoffs may have been the only time I saw that guy make a mistake on the ice. Weber and Suter for all their hype have made plenty of mistakes on the ice.

I think we have to look at what Klein is and does he do his job for what he is. I would have to say he's a solid second pairing defensive defenseman. I know you disagree and that's fine but when I see a guy crash into the boards and look like his ankle has been broken and then is back out for his next shift, I'm gonna cut the guy a little bit of slack. That's just me.

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09-15-2012, 09:04 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
He does it more than time-to-time, that is the problem.

So Klein was on the ice for about 50% of our playoff goals against in 2011, and he played about 25-30% of the time. You are also conveniently leaving out his disastrous play vs the Blackhawks in 2010.

I don't give Klein credit for the Joel Ward/Jordin Tootoo offensive breakout. That's great he was on the ice for some of those goals, but he had a very small hand in them.

And you are giving Klein partial credit for us having the #1 plower play this year?

I stand by my statement-- Klein is way to mistake prone be a solid top 4 dman on a contending team. He's a ticking time bomb out there most of the time, way to mistake prone. He has very little offense and very little physical presence. The Detroit series is the best we will ever see him play.
Statistically and the sight test put him as a solid second pair d-man.

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09-15-2012, 09:23 PM
  #34
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If you're hinting at Scuderi, agree 100%
Not entirely, but that does help make the same point. Him and Seidenberg would both be good examples.

I think folks are just a little spoiled by the days when Hamhuis was held back on the depth chart.

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09-16-2012, 12:59 AM
  #35
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klein is a #4 for me..sometimes he can be play up to a #2-3 as well as down to a #5. but all in all, he is a solid second pair guy most nights when he eliminates brain farts. depends alot on his linemate, too

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09-16-2012, 02:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
he is a solid second pair guy most nights when he eliminates brain farts.
The brain farts happen at least every other game on average. So I would agree he's a solid second pair defenseman about half of the time. Then you throw in he has has virtually no offensive skill and no physical presence, it makes the frequent brain farts even more unforgiving.

Linemate excuse? He played with Hamhuis for long periods. It was not a good pairing, and was a big reason why we lost the Blackhawks in 2010.

Yes, Sidenberg is better. Vancouver's 2nd pair was better when they made the finalis. Letang, Gill were better when PIT made their runs. Kronwall, Stuart were better when the Red Wings went deep. etc. This isn't fantasy, it's the real NHL.

Klein may suffice as a 2nd pair dman, but I'm tired of a Predators team that settles for "sufficing". We need to take the next step. Playing guys like Klein in key positions isn't going to help us do that. If it's the best option we have, I guess we have to settle.

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09-16-2012, 08:49 AM
  #37
glenngineer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
The brain farts happen at least every other game on average. So I would agree he's a solid second pair defenseman about half of the time. Then you throw in he has has virtually no offensive skill and no physical presence, it makes the frequent brain farts even more unforgiving.

Linemate excuse? He played with Hamhuis for long periods. It was not a good pairing, and was a big reason why we lost the Blackhawks in 2010.

Yes, Sidenberg is better. Vancouver's 2nd pair was better when they made the finalis. Letang, Gill were better when PIT made their runs. Kronwall, Stuart were better when the Red Wings went deep. etc. This isn't fantasy, it's the real NHL.

Klein may suffice as a 2nd pair dman, but I'm tired of a Predators team that settles for "sufficing". We need to take the next step. Playing guys like Klein in key positions isn't going to help us do that. If it's the best option we have, I guess we have to settle.
So would we have been better off keeping Hamhuis as a second pairing guy at a price tag of $4.5 million dollars? I'm not meaning that in a mean way, I'm just curious what you think about that. Would we have been better keeping Hamhuis around even though the price tag was high and we weren't willing to spend to the cap yet.

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09-16-2012, 09:01 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
The brain farts happen at least every other game on average. So I would agree he's a solid second pair defenseman about half of the time. Then you throw in he has has virtually no offensive skill and no physical presence, it makes the frequent brain farts even more unforgiving.

Linemate excuse? He played with Hamhuis for long periods. It was not a good pairing, and was a big reason why we lost the Blackhawks in 2010.

Yes, Sidenberg is better. Vancouver's 2nd pair was better when they made the finalis. Letang, Gill were better when PIT made their runs. Kronwall, Stuart were better when the Red Wings went deep. etc. This isn't fantasy, it's the real NHL.

Klein may suffice as a 2nd pair dman, but I'm tired of a Predators team that settles for "sufficing". We need to take the next step. Playing guys like Klein in key positions isn't going to help us do that. If it's the best option we have, I guess we have to settle.
The bolded section is 100% false. He has shown enough offensive skill to have been switched to forward when we had a logjam of defensemen, and has supplied us with a few of the best highlight reel goals over the past 3 seasons. But with Weber, Suter, Blum and Ellis in the fold, Klein is counted on more for his defensive skills. On the "No physical presence"... compared to who? Weber?


As for settling for a guy like Klein on the 2nd pair. Why don't you name us the 2nd pair defensemen around the league that you would rather have than Klein. Which 2nd pair defensemen are going to bring more to the team, who will get us to that next level?


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09-16-2012, 10:10 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
As for settling for a guy like Klein on the 2nd pair. Why don't you name us the 2nd pair defensemen around the league that you would rather have than Klein. Which 2nd pair defensemen are going to bring more to the team, who will get us to that next level?
For my part, I'm already convinced that all such names are going to be guys playing on top pairings on other teams.

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09-16-2012, 10:17 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Yes, Sidenberg is better. Vancouver's 2nd pair was better when they made the finalis. Letang, Gill were better when PIT made their runs. Kronwall, Stuart were better when the Red Wings went deep. etc. This isn't fantasy, it's the real NHL.
The only name that makes any sense to include here is Kronwall, and I'm not convinced he's better. Seidenberg and Letang both played on their top pairs. Including Gill and Stuart's occasional constructive playoff plays yet excluding Klein's play against Detroit is hypocritical. And who exactly was on Vancouver's 2nd pair that year? Ehrhoff? Bieksa? Edler?

You're still living in spoiled fantasyland.

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09-16-2012, 10:27 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
The brain farts happen at least every other game on average. So I would agree he's a solid second pair defenseman about half of the time. Then you throw in he has has virtually no offensive skill and no physical presence, it makes the frequent brain farts even more unforgiving.

Linemate excuse? He played with Hamhuis for long periods. It was not a good pairing, and was a big reason why we lost the Blackhawks in 2010.

Yes, Sidenberg is better. Vancouver's 2nd pair was better when they made the finalis. Letang, Gill were better when PIT made their runs. Kronwall, Stuart were better when the Red Wings went deep. etc. This isn't fantasy, it's the real NHL.

Klein may suffice as a 2nd pair dman, but I'm tired of a Predators team that settles for "sufficing". We need to take the next step. Playing guys like Klein in key positions isn't going to help us do that. If it's the best option we have, I guess we have to settle.
First, it would be interesting this upcoming season (if there is one) for you to keep a tally of what you would consider to be Klein's brain farts, and I will try to do the same. We can compare the lists after the season is over, and see if either of us get an average of 1 mistake per every 2 games. It would also be interesting to see how harshly you judge Klein's play during any given game, and compare that to how lenient I might be. I doubt it'll happen, though.

Second, it isn't an excuse to discuss the differences in partners, and how that has influenced Klein's play. Do you think a player should play exactly the same regardless of his partner or linemates? They do not play in a vacuum. Partner has a huge impact on a defenseman's game. When he was paired with Hamhuis it was a pairing that should have been much better than it actually was. They are very similar players, so when you could exploit one's weakness it effectively weakened the other, too. It was pretty obvious while watching them play that they did not mesh for whatever reason. Both are good defensemen. Together they are a train wreck.

Third, you're comparing the guy playing top minutes with Chara to Klein. How that is fair I do not even know. I mean, if Klein is supposed to be great while paired with Hamhuis, how is Seidenberg supposed to be with Chara? After that you go on to say that players on teams that made deep runs were playing better than players on our teams that did not go deep. Is that something that you didn't expect us to know? Of course their players were better when they went deep. They went deep.

I don't think you truly feel Klein is sufficient as a 2nd pairing defender since you have said the opposite so any times in the past, but let's just go with it for now. If you do not want a guy who is sufficient, who out there should Poile target who is more than sufficient? How should he go about it? Which assets should be used, and why would the other team go for those particular assets? If we're going to have the discussion let's really have it rather than simply saying "this isn't good enough" without any sort of solution at all.

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09-16-2012, 02:09 PM
  #42
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The only name that makes any sense to include here is Kronwall, and I'm not convinced he's better. Seidenberg and Letang both played on their top pairs.
I did not bring up Sienenberg, others here did. Letang was not playing on the top pair when Pittsburgh went deep (Gochar/Orpik). I can give a slew of motr 2nd pair defenders who are better than Klein-- of which I'm sure I'll get "Im not convinced he's better than Klein".

I've offered many ideas of ways to improve our 2nd pair over the years-- from Willie Mitchell as a FA to Z. Michalek being traded recently.

I'm done with this. When people start giving Klein credit for our #1 PP, it's over.

I've watched Klein his 5-6 years in the NHL. He has been VERY mistake prone, more so than any defenseman we have getting significant minutes. He has his moments, but he almost always offsets them with idiocy. He has minimal offense (averages 2 goal per year), struggles to move the puck with effectiveness, and offers very little physical component.

He had a great series vs Detroit. Will that be his turning point after 6 years in the NHL?-- including years of severely hurting us in the playoffs. Maybe so, but I'm not counting on it. He just has a knack for mistakes I don't see going away with one playoff series. And I think our 2nd pair needs a more consistent player if we ever plan on going on deep in the POs (among other needs). If you don't agree with it, so be it.


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09-16-2012, 03:38 PM
  #43
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First off you quoted me saying it was because of Klein we had a number 1 PP. I never said that. TMI showed team stats of what the team accomplished. He said this in reference to your comment that we are meh as a team a opposed to being elite. We were top 10 in a lot of categories, one of which was a top 10 PK. Klein plays the most minutes on the PK on this team. I'm not sure where you got me or anyone else claiming Klein made our PP number 1. He was hardly out there on the PP so why would anyone around make a comment like that? Doesn't really make a lot of sense since most of us watch all the games.

I'm still trying to figure out how he played so poorly the year before last like you said after I presented all the stats from all 12 games.

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09-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #44
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First off you quoted me saying it was because of Klein we had a number 1 PP. I never said that. TMI showed team stats of what the team accomplished. He said this in reference to your comment that we are meh as a team a opposed to being elite. We were top 10 in a lot of categories, one of which was a top 10 PK. Klein plays the most minutes on the PK on this team. I'm not sure where you got me or anyone else claiming Klein made our PP number 1. He was hardly out there on the PP so why would anyone around make a comment like that? Doesn't really make a lot of sense since most of us watch all the games.

I'm still trying to figure out how he played so poorly the year before last like you said after I presented all the stats from all 12 games.
The Nashville Predators were top ten in the following categories last year:

Power play (1)

Kevin Klein was on the second pairing for the Nashville Predators last year.

Not sure what you want you meant to imply those statements, but you heavily imply he had a hand in all those achievements.

KK did not play the most PK minutes on our team. Suter and Weber did. Klein wasn't far behind, but get your facts straight.

I'm still trying to figure out how he played so poorly the year before last like you said after I presented all the stats from all 12 games.
You are taking the facts you want to take. He was on-ice for 50% of GA while playing 30% of the time. Yes, he played on the PK like many other dmen of our team. Also, I watched the games and the blatant mistakes Klein made. I also said the stats from 2010-2011 playoffs. You are conveniently leaving out the 2010 playoffs because they make your stats look worse than they already are.

KK is too mistake prone to be a solid 2nd pairing dman. He will "suffice", but he's not going to be consistent. He doesn't move the puck effectively and offers minimal physical presence. The good he does is often offset by blatant and frequent mistakes thus far in his career. You won't change my opinion and I won't change yours. The only thing that will change my opinion is if Klein drastically decreases his bonehead plays (like he did in the DET series).

It's not the end of the world that we signed him long term to be on our 2nd pair, but it's not the beginning of building an elite team either IMO. Its more of the same "Predator Way" formula that has some fans and players (Suter and Weber mainly) doubting we'll ever become elite if we keep doing the same stuff.

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09-16-2012, 04:37 PM
  #45
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Right. I was responding to the idea that Klein is a second pairing defenseman on a mediocre team. He didn't contribute to the PP, but the team itself obviously did.

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09-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #46
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Here is what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
It is easy, because he has major gaffes typically at least every other game. Outside of the ones that lead to goals, Rinne has saved his bacon sooo many times.

Laugh at the stats all you want. We'll have to dig up how many GA he was on the ice in the PO from 2010-2011.

I don't think he belongs in the top 4 on an elite team. If we're shooting for a mediocre team, Klein's your guy
.
The implication is that if Klein is on your second pairing, you are a mediocre team. Not an elite team. Not a good team. A mediocre team.

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I just went through almost all of the Hal Gill thread, and pretty much no one was excited about bumping Klein down to the third pair. In fact, I don't remember seeing anyone giddy about that particular option. People discussed it initially (I was one of them), but the premise was trying to find the most balanced defensive pairings. As the thread goes on people (myself included) begin looking at a Gill/Ellis pairing while keeping Klein and Josi together.

The Nashville Predators were top ten in the following categories last year:

Power play (1)
Wins (6)
Points (5)
Goals per Game (8)
Goals Against per Game (1)
Penalty Kill (10)

Kevin Klein was on the second pairing for the Nashville Predators last year. I'm not sure the things above can be done by a mediocre team.
The fact is Kevin Klein was on the second pairing of the Nashville Predators last year, and that same team accomplished all of that. I doubt a mediocre team does those things. When you brought up the team itself you left it open to look at the team stats, not just the ones that Klein would have had a hand in.

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09-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #47
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Right. I was responding to the idea that Klein is a second pairing defenseman on a mediocre team. He didn't contribute to the PP, but the team itself obviously did.
I called the Predators "not elite". Sure, we're above mediocre the last 2-3 years, in the "good range". As a fan, I want to see us taking the step to elite range-- a contender. And I don't see that happening unfortunately as long as we stick with this same forumla.

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09-16-2012, 04:45 PM
  #48
Predatorbill
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
So would we have been better off keeping Hamhuis as a second pairing guy at a price tag of $4.5 million dollars? I'm not meaning that in a mean way, I'm just curious what you think about that. Would we have been better keeping Hamhuis around even though the price tag was high and we weren't willing to spend to the cap yet.
Hammer looks cheap at that price now. Hindsight is 20/20. However, DP's strategy of drafting dmen may pay off big time, since there will be so few top 4 dmen going to free agency.

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09-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #49
ThirdManIn
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Fair enough, but I wanted to clear up what was said in your comment and in my reply.

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09-16-2012, 05:14 PM
  #50
glenngineer
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We're both wrong on SH TOI. Suter average 2:20, Klein at 2:18 and Weber at 2:16 per game. The season before last is where Klein was on the ice almost a minute more per game than Suter and Weber.

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