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09-15-2012, 01:28 PM
  #976
Nasty Nazem
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
How Lawrie is so aggresive on the basepaths it's costing the Jays games and he said it wouldn't be so bad if he admited to messing up but he got so angry when Lawrie refused to apologize and said "it was his game and wasn't going to change that". Said if he was the manager he would have benched Lawrie for a few days because of those comments.

He said he needs to learn how to be a good baserunner because he's wasting his insane speed. Either stop running aggresively or learn how to be smart. He didn't mention Rasmus but Rasmus would be an example of the former. Rasmus is very fast yet is a very poor baserunner, thus he never runs aggresively anymore. Lawrie is either going to have to learn or become a Rasmus.
What? Rasmus is not very fast nor was he ever very fast and he isn't a poor baserunner either. He's got above average speed and he's a smart baserunner. Doesn't always look like he is trying but he gets where he needs to.

Lawrie just runs like a mad men all the time. Sure, hustle is nice but he needs to understand what situations to use it in.

I didn't hear Zaun's comment but yeah I could agree with that Lawrie needs to own his mistakes. He is in his first full season and plays hard all the time so yeah mistakes will happen but just own up to it once in a while and learn from it instead of living in denial like you're doing nothing wrong.

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09-15-2012, 01:37 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
What? Rasmus is not very fast nor was he ever very fast and he isn't a poor baserunner either. He's got above average speed and he's a smart baserunner. Doesn't always look like he is trying but he gets where he needs to.

Lawrie just runs like a mad men all the time. Sure, hustle is nice but he needs to understand what situations to use it in.

I didn't hear Zaun's comment but yeah I could agree with that Lawrie needs to own his mistakes. He is in his first full season and plays hard all the time so yeah mistakes will happen but just own up to it once in a while and learn from it instead of living in denial like you're doing nothing wrong.
What in the world are you talking about? How is Rasmus not fast? He's definitely fast, not elite speed but still good speed. There's plenty of players slower than Rasmus that are tenfold better baserunners than hin (And a few on the Jays, Encarnacion for one). It wasn't that long ago that Rasmus was thought to have pretty good SB potential. I also don't know how you can say he's a smart baserunner "because he get's where he needs to". That's a piss poor excuse,

Rasmus is a mediocre baserunner at best and if he was aggresive he would be worse. For a guy with his speed (It's not Gose, Davis or even Lawrie speed, but he's still fast), he's a very conservative baserunner, which shades how good his baserunning actually is because we hardly see him get into bad situations anymore (Which he still does, besides Davis and Lawrie, Ramus has to be the next guy with the most baserunning mistakes). He's learned to play conservative because he's not a great baserunner.

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09-15-2012, 02:11 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
What in the world are you talking about? How is Rasmus not fast? He's definitely fast, not elite speed but still good speed. There's plenty of players slower than Rasmus that are tenfold better baserunners than hin (And a few on the Jays, Encarnacion for one). It wasn't that long ago that Rasmus was thought to have pretty good SB potential. I also don't know how you can say he's a smart baserunner "because he get's where he needs to". That's a piss poor excuse,

Rasmus is a mediocre baserunner at best and if he was aggresive he would be worse. For a guy with his speed (It's not Gose, Davis or even Lawrie speed, but he's still fast), he's a very conservative baserunner, which shades how good his baserunning actually is because we hardly see him get into bad situations anymore (Which he still does, besides Davis and Lawrie, Ramus has to be the next guy with the most baserunning mistakes). He's learned to play conservative because he's not a great baserunner.
I said he is above average which puts him around 55 in the scouting scale and that's plenty fast. He's not a plus runner but he's not below average either and I don't think he is as fast as you think. He's not gonna be a guy that steals 30 bases but I think he could do 15-20. He's batting in front of Jose and Edwin too so it doesn't make sense to steal in front of those guys unless you're really fast and swipe a bag for sure.

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09-15-2012, 02:41 PM
  #979
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09-15-2012, 02:58 PM
  #980
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Is KJ really 28 yrs old? He plays like he's 38! He's brutal.

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09-15-2012, 03:42 PM
  #981
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Not sure what else CV would have to do to prove himself as a 4/5 starter, imo.

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09-15-2012, 03:44 PM
  #982
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Not sure what else CV would have to do to prove himself as a 4/5 starter, imo.
Same. I don't see any reason you don't re-sign the guy and let him have the 4/5 role. He's earned it as far as I'm concerned.

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09-15-2012, 03:56 PM
  #983
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Man, his splitter is such an amazing pitch.

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09-15-2012, 04:06 PM
  #984
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Hmm, Cecil's velocity is way up out of the pen. Not surprising but he is consistently hitting 93.

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09-15-2012, 04:10 PM
  #985
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And that's the difference between a 87 MPH pitch compared to a 93. It's up in the zone but Cecil blows it by him. Really think Cecil could do great in the role CV was which was kind of a long man who could start and Cecil can come in late situations against lefties. Could probably get more righties out too considering he is throwing a lot harder out of the pen.

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09-15-2012, 04:14 PM
  #986
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Damn it Colby

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09-15-2012, 04:43 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by trellaine201 View Post
Is KJ really 28 yrs old? He plays like he's 38! He's brutal.
He's actually 30. Don't rely on Buck Martinez for your information.

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09-15-2012, 05:50 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Nasty Nazem View Post
And that's the difference between a 87 MPH pitch compared to a 93. It's up in the zone but Cecil blows it by him. Really think Cecil could do great in the role CV was which was kind of a long man who could start and Cecil can come in late situations against lefties. Could probably get more righties out too considering he is throwing a lot harder out of the pen.
I see Cecil taking Oliver's spot in the pen next year if he retires. I do think though long term Cecil's career is as a left specialist, his splits on lefties is fantastic and as you mentioned with his velocity hike, he could be downright deadly.

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09-15-2012, 06:12 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Paris in Flames View Post
Not sure what else CV would have to do to prove himself as a 4/5 starter, imo.
Pitch 200 innings, apparently. This is always the challenge in making informed projections on players - he hasn't done it before, does that mean he couldn't do it? In the Jas' eyes, the struggles he's had in the past as his innings total seated to mount suggest that hedoesn't have the endurance to be a season-long starter. They should be saying that to him, though, rather than to the media - but that's a separate issue.

Personally I'd look to sign him for back-of-the-rotation money, and hope nobody out there values him as a #3. If he ends up as long relief/spot starter, it's well worth it just for the insurance he provides in the event of (inevitable) injuries.

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09-16-2012, 02:22 AM
  #990
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Lawrie has a lot of talent still not sure he has much between the ears between what happened Friday and today bunting on his own with 1st and 2nd nobody out which just opens up 1B so the Sox can intentionally walk Encarnacion. It's nice Lawrie wants to sacrifice but he's batting 3rd in the lineup and I don't want my 3rd place hitter bunting and I sure in heck don't think Farrell wants him bunting either.

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09-16-2012, 02:27 AM
  #991
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Pitch 200 innings, apparently. This is always the challenge in making informed projections on players - he hasn't done it before, does that mean he couldn't do it? In the Jas' eyes, the struggles he's had in the past as his innings total seated to mount suggest that hedoesn't have the endurance to be a season-long starter. They should be saying that to him, though, rather than to the media - but that's a separate issue.

Personally I'd look to sign him for back-of-the-rotation money, and hope nobody out there values him as a #3. If he ends up as long relief/spot starter, it's well worth it just for the insurance he provides in the event of (inevitable) injuries.
CV has been a valuable pitcher I'm not sure what the big deal is about 200 IP how many pitchers throw 200 innings per year anyways? I am betting it's somewhere between 30-40 and the guys that throw 200 innings are guys like Verlander, Kershaw, Sabathia, Hernandez, Halladay etc.. I'm not going to have these unreasonable expectations of CV going out there and throwing 200 innings. Bring him back he can be a long relief guy and spot starter as you say

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09-16-2012, 03:26 AM
  #992
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
CV has been a valuable pitcher I'm not sure what the big deal is about 200 IP how many pitchers throw 200 innings per year anyways? I am betting it's somewhere between 30-40 and the guys that throw 200 innings are guys like Verlander, Kershaw, Sabathia, Hernandez, Halladay etc.. I'm not going to have these unreasonable expectations of CV going out there and throwing 200 innings. Bring him back he can be a long relief guy and spot starter as you say
I don't know if he'd want to come back to a hybrid relief/starter role.

and FWIW, it's not necessarily 200 innigns as a hard threshold for success, but he's never been anywhere close to that even. Last year about 40 pitchers were at or above 200 innings, and almost a hundred pitched at least roughly 160 innings. This year CV is projected to top out at about 130 innings, which leaves him like 5 starts short of 160 innings, and like a dozen starts below the 200 threshold.

consider that 100ish pitchers reaching 160 innings constitutes enough guys for an average of 3 per team (obviously it's not that evenly spread, but that's beside the point). So in an ideal world, it's a threshold that half your rotation should reach. But it's notably out of reach for CV over the last couple years

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09-16-2012, 08:34 AM
  #993
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I see Cecil taking Oliver's spot in the pen next year if he retires. I do think though long term Cecil's career is as a left specialist, his splits on lefties is fantastic and as you mentioned with his velocity hike, he could be downright deadly.
And if he doesn't retire, hes taking over Loup's spot

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09-16-2012, 08:39 AM
  #994
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consider that 100ish pitchers reaching 160 innings constitutes enough guys for an average of 3 per team (obviously it's not that evenly spread, but that's beside the point). So in an ideal world, it's a threshold that half your rotation should reach. But it's notably out of reach for CV over the last couple years
I think the jays may have burned bridges with him at this point, so I agree the chances of him wanting to come back might be slim, especially if they're not prepared to guarantee him a spot in the rotation.

The question for me is whether it necessarily follows that because CV hasn't been asked to pitch 160 before, he must therefore be assumed incapable of that threshold. I'm beginning to think the whole innings limits business of pitching management these days is more voodoo and ******** than science.

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09-16-2012, 11:32 AM
  #995
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Lawrie has a lot of talent still not sure he has much between the ears between what happened Friday and today bunting on his own with 1st and 2nd nobody out which just opens up 1B so the Sox can intentionally walk Encarnacion. It's nice Lawrie wants to sacrifice but he's batting 3rd in the lineup and I don't want my 3rd place hitter bunting and I sure in heck don't think Farrell wants him bunting either.
If fairness it's like his second game in the 3 spot. His base running decision making is very weak at this point for sure but given time I'm sure he'll learn how to be very effective. After the bunt you could see Farrell explaining to him why it was a bad decision. We just need to hope he learns from his mistakes.

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09-16-2012, 11:49 AM
  #996
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Guys, Lawrie is clearly trying his best to be a difference on the field and in the order.

I love a player that's trying every game than one going with the flow this time of the year. He's not costing the jays anything.

He's still young, in his second season, and is essentially a face of this franchise. If he has to learn the hard way so be it.

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09-16-2012, 12:04 PM
  #997
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I guess the real question is, why are you a fan at all? You consistently take a "glass is half empty" view of every situation involving the Jays. Reading over your many posts, if a prospect or player performs well, it's a mirage. If a player or prospect stumbles, it's a sure sign that they're a bust and just another example of Jays incompetence. You do recognize, don't you, that this is just as unrealistic an attitude to take as saying that every player or prospect will be an all-star? Things are seldom as great as polyannas would suggest, but they are never - never! - as consistently bleak as the picture you always paint.

So the question again is: why are you a Jays fan? If they make you so angry or depressed, why do you follow them? More importantly, why do you inflict your consistently negative thoughts about them on others? If you're unable or unwilling to take a reasoned, objective, dare I say BALANCED stance on the Jays, you'll quickly find yourself relegated to "ignore" status. (Won't be the first I've ignored on this board...).
Sounds kinda like a certain group of fans on a certain board. However the fans on said board are always "right on" and are considered "realistic".

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09-16-2012, 01:26 PM
  #998
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Is it bad that I can't stand our own broadcast team?

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09-16-2012, 01:37 PM
  #999
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inning break makes it a good time to swap threads. New GDT up in a sec.

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