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Evander Kane Proposal Thread (keep it here)

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Old
09-14-2012, 03:59 PM
  #626
veganhunter
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If you think MDZ is decent and Stepan is meh then (and I mean this in the politest way possible) you need to watch the NYR a little closer.

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09-15-2012, 01:36 PM
  #627
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Eklund saying Leafs, Flyers, Hawks and Blues all showing significant interest. I know he won't get traded, but nothing else is happening so begin making wild trade offers that will be rejected by both sides!

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Old
09-15-2012, 01:43 PM
  #628
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Please no, want no part of Kane in Philly

I imagine Flyers will offer Read and Jake if interested, but please NO !

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Old
09-15-2012, 02:27 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
While I admit I would have preferred to add, and gotten something more, I'm still good with something around the basic package:
Hagelin + Del Zotto
for
EKane + Postma

although I'm getting that you want more.

How about
Stepan + Del Zotto
for
EKane + Postma

straight 2 for 2 thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
Done!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
The proposal

Stepan + Del Zotto
for
EKane + Postma

has been seconded.

Head count, please... Do/should the teams do it? I say yes.

Rangers gamble on speedy but green JT MIller replacing Stepan. Postma is righty, a plus, but way less than MDZ. However, you're adding EK!

Rangers would have to add, but I see something around Brian Boyle + to Hawks for D Dylan Olsen a move that alleviates some of the thinness at D the above trade creates, which is still worth it given what you add at W.

For Jets, it's one more solid addition to D, a lefty. Stepan is not a sniper but should get his opportunity goals, and is good at creating/setting up. They are giving up one premium piece for two very good pieces, one offensively at C and a backliner at D, suggesting possible improved balance overall.
Value wise this deal is close. But the reality of it is completely missed. Why would we trade a 1st line winger for an offensive-minded defenseman that would be our #4 and play on the 2nd PP at best? And what does adding ANOTHER lefty D do for us when we already have 4? MDZ just doesn't have the value he would have to other teams to the Jets. A trade like this will not work for us.

If we're bringing in a defenseman for Kane it needs to be a more defensive-minded one first and foremost. Preferably a right-handed one. Someone that can play 20+ minutes a night without question.

And I'm not sure how motivated the Rangers are to move their only defenseman to break 40 points last year. He is pretty much their only offensive defenseman(others still bring points though).

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Old
09-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennysflyers16 View Post
please no, want no part of kane in philly

I imagine flyers will offer read and jake if interested, but please no !
lol!

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Old
09-15-2012, 03:26 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
lol!
He did say that he didn't want Kane.

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Old
09-15-2012, 04:21 PM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
lol!
Out of curiosity, what do you think the gap between Kane and Voracek is, value-wise?

(I doubt the Flyers make a serious / competitive offer, I'm just curious what you think it would have to look like).

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Old
09-15-2012, 05:08 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
...
Quote:
Value wise this deal is close.
Thank you.

Quote:
But the reality of it is completely missed. Why would we trade a 1st line winger for an offensive-minded defenseman that would be our #4 and play on the 2nd PP at best? And what does adding ANOTHER lefty D do for us when we already have 4?
Please don't bring out the Vinnie Barbarino **" 'I'm so confused'...} in me.
I paid attention to what your fan base said.
I got that you wanted a lefty, to complement Buf. Defensive. Preferably with a shot.

I offered Marc Staal.

Then, you wanted more, so substituted the lefty MDZ for the lefty Staal, and added Stepan to increase the total value. Granted Del Zotto is not the shut down artist Marc is, but you are getting a well rounded backliner who can actually play D, and still is learning and still has upside.

Quote:
MDZ just doesn't have the value he would have to other teams to the Jets. A trade like this will not work for us.
I'm not suggesting he be forced down anybody's throat or he's worth more or less to the Jets compared to another club.

I think if other things are close enough to equal, EKane stays. But if not, then you are listening to offers. I trust this is a good offer.

Obviously, Staal and Stepan are too much. I have an open mind if you want to add to Kane, and we add to Staal + Stepan, but I don't immediately see close enough balance. Surprise me, if you can.

I expect you will take the highest offer, even if it leads to imbalances; you can always trade excess away after the fact.


Quote:
If we're bringing in a defenseman for Kane it needs to be a more defensive-minded one first and foremost. Preferably a right-handed one. Someone that can play 20+ minutes a night without question.
I'm so confused... ..... and I asked you guys not to do that!

Make up your minds, please.
Do you want a lefty Staal? A righty Girardi?
Or a step down but still a nice pickup in Del Zotto, with another major chunk Stepan?

Quote:
And I'm not sure how motivated the Rangers are to move their only defenseman to break 40 points last year. He is pretty much their only offensive defenseman (others still bring points though).
I do not always agree with my Ranger brethren.
I respect their points, about the premium of defense, and balance on the backline.
These are legit points they raise. They are not entirely wrong on merit and within their rights to raise and emphasize them.

However, I raise a counter argument, which my detractors rail against at their peril.

I do not agree with this Torts' defense first system, where there is constant shotblocking and D first; we were lucky we didn't have more injuries, and whether or not Torts is gonna, uh, express his own opinion in defiant opposition to what appears to be fact, that the well conditioned Rangers ran out of gas at the end in part because of this system, I will go on record, whether he agrees with me or not.

I'm glad the Rangers had a great season, I'm glad we added this offseason.
However, we still need one powerful offensive player to keep on the pressure so this team can dominate for three lines, then come back with a checking fourth.

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF you succeed in doing that, then you can continue to fine tune and improve the D in the meantime.

Dylan Olsen of the Black Hawks and Alec Martinez of the Kings are two who come to mind whose teams, properly so, will not give them away, but who may be available to the Rangers for the right price, which won't be cheap, but do-able, and satisfactory in the larger context of what was done to bolster the club overall.

Each team needs the proverbial horses.
In sports overall, year after year, it's been the Yankees. Not always an all-universe 1927 or 1961 club, but dominant enough in each basic area to prevail.

I'd argue the hockey equivalent has been the Montreal Canadians.

So yeah, NY certainly doesn't want to and shouldn't give MDZ away, but to acquire an EKane, it's worth the risk, IMO.

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Old
09-15-2012, 06:53 PM
  #634
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On a team like the Jets a player like MDZ is counter productive, offensive fwds would have to go back the other way.

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Old
09-15-2012, 07:21 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
On a team like the Jets a player like MDZ is counter productive, offensive fwds would have to go back the other way.
So what do you recommend?
Staal?
Girardi?
or a different piece w/Stepan?
or something still further different altogether?

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Old
09-15-2012, 07:22 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Out of curiosity, what do you think the gap between Kane and Voracek is, value-wise?

(I doubt the Flyers make a serious / competitive offer, I'm just curious what you think it would have to look like).
There's a HUGE gap between Kane and Voracek. Kane's best scoring season showed him score 12 more goals than Voracek. For total points, Kane's best season is 7 points ahead of Voraceks.

Looking at the points totals over the years, they seem similar, yet Kane is 2 years younger and has shown to be streadily improving year to year while Voracek has somehow leveled off at 23.

.573 - Voracek
.591 - Kane

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Old
09-15-2012, 08:18 PM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
There's a HUGE gap between Kane and Voracek. Kane's best scoring season showed him score 12 more goals than Voracek. For total points, Kane's best season is 7 points ahead of Voraceks.

Looking at the points totals over the years, they seem similar, yet Kane is 2 years younger and has shown to be streadily improving year to year while Voracek has somehow leveled off at 23.

.573 - Voracek
.591 - Kane
Ok, but in terms of Flyers players / picks / prospects, what does "HUGE" mean?

I don't think anyone would argue that Kane is both more accomplished and more talented as an offensive player. He's also not nearly the two-way player that Voracek is. Voracek's the better passer (from the eye test), while Kane is the purer goal scorer and more dynamic offensive threat.

I think there's a gap, but I don't think there's any young, decent player on the Flyers I'd be willing to give up in addition to Voracek to get Kane. With Jagr gone, Jake's the Flyers' top-line RW, and he's not readily replaceable.

In other words, while I think I agree with your valuation of Kane (for the most part), I also agree with the poster who wouldn't give up Voracek + Read for him (I think).

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Old
09-15-2012, 09:36 PM
  #638
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Sounds like a Kane deal with the Jets is eminent according to two of the reporters from the Winnipeg free press. Might put an end to the wheeling and dealing on this thread

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Old
09-15-2012, 10:21 PM
  #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Ok, but in terms of Flyers players / picks / prospects, what does "HUGE" mean?

I don't think anyone would argue that Kane is both more accomplished and more talented as an offensive player. He's also not nearly the two-way player that Voracek is. Voracek's the better passer (from the eye test), while Kane is the purer goal scorer and more dynamic offensive threat.

I think there's a gap, but I don't think there's any young, decent player on the Flyers I'd be willing to give up in addition to Voracek to get Kane. With Jagr gone, Jake's the Flyers' top-line RW, and he's not readily replaceable.

In other words, while I think I agree with your valuation of Kane (for the most part), I also agree with the poster who wouldn't give up Voracek + Read for him (I think).
To be fair, I want no part of Voracek if we would be trading Kane. He's a good player but if the Jets are trading their 20 year old 30 goal scorer, we want an equal player coming back.

I am sooooo sick of this quantity for quality stuff.

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Old
09-15-2012, 10:37 PM
  #640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
To be fair, I want no part of Voracek if we would be trading Kane. He's a good player but if the Jets are trading their 20 year old 30 goal scorer, we want an equal player coming back.

I am sooooo sick of this quantity for quality stuff.
Raymond
Ballard
1st


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Old
09-15-2012, 11:09 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Team Punishment View Post
Raymond
Ballard
1st


Exactly lol

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:54 AM
  #642
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
...
I think if other things are close enough to equal, EKane stays. But if not, then you are listening to offers. I trust this is a good offer.
Congrats to Jets on Kane signing!
Now the only ? is do you want to keep him at a reasonable/not cheap but reasonable amount over 6 years, or is this a sign and trade?

The costs goes up a bit now that he's locked in for 6 not a theoretical 4.

So assuming it is sign and trade, suggest your price...

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Old
09-16-2012, 10:02 AM
  #643
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Congrats to Jets on Kane signing!
Now the only ? is do you want to keep him at a reasonable/not cheap but reasonable amount over 6 years, or is this a sign and trade?

The costs goes up a bit now that he's locked in for 6 not a theoretical 4.

So assuming it is sign and trade, suggest your price...
The Jets are keeping him.

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Old
09-16-2012, 12:13 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
The Jets are keeping him.
That's why I said, "assume".
Congrats on the extension.

If there is a sign and trade forthcoming, now that Kane is extended to full 6 years at reasonable number and not a theoretical 4, the value should go up.

That said, my revised offer in case of sign and trade is:
Stepan + Hagelin + Vernace + Eminger + NYR 3rd 2013
to Jets for
EKane, Postma + Jets 2nd 2013 or 2014

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Old
09-16-2012, 01:53 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
That's why I said, "assume".
Congrats on the extension.

If there is a sign and trade forthcoming, now that Kane is extended to full 6 years at reasonable number and not a theoretical 4, the value should go up.

That said, my revised offer in case of sign and trade is:
Stepan + Hagelin + Vernace + Eminger + NYR 3rd 2013
to Jets for
EKane, Postma + Jets 2nd 2013 or 2014

As a neutral observer, I would say any deal from New York for Kane would start with Kreider.

You would have to be crazy to think that NY could get Kane without giving him up.

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Old
09-16-2012, 01:56 PM
  #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
That's why I said, "assume".
Congrats on the extension.

If there is a sign and trade forthcoming, now that Kane is extended to full 6 years at reasonable number and not a theoretical 4, the value should go up.

That said, my revised offer in case of sign and trade is:
Stepan + Hagelin + Vernace + Eminger + NYR 3rd 2013
to Jets for
EKane, Postma + Jets 2nd 2013 or 2014
just.stop.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:00 PM
  #647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
That's why I said, "assume".
Congrats on the extension.

If there is a sign and trade forthcoming, now that Kane is extended to full 6 years at reasonable number and not a theoretical 4, the value should go up.

That said, my revised offer in case of sign and trade is:
Stepan + Hagelin + Vernace + Eminger + NYR 3rd 2013
to Jets for
EKane, Postma + Jets 2nd 2013 or 2014
The Jets aren't trading him; as such, Jets fans are not overly interested in assigning a trade value to a player that our team is keeping, FYI. Seems like a huge waste of everyone's time. Go start a Benn thread and offer the above Ranger players for him instead.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:19 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
As a neutral observer, I would say any deal from New York for Kane would start with Kreider.

You would have to be crazy to think that NY could get Kane without giving him up.
I think it can still be done, but I don't usually agree about trading coke for pepsi. Kane and Kreider are two big fast strong guys with some scoring touch, and in a couple of seasons we'll know better the differences between them.

I also, trying to be fair, rated the value one way when it was unclear and seeming that if Kane pushed it, the most an acquiring club might get out of him was 4 years. Now that he is signed, sealed, delivered for a full 6, and that 6 is a good number, the cost of acquiring him --- making the hypothetical only, not saying he actually would be traded --- goes up.

I simply wanted to fine tune what my perception of that value should be.
I think that can still be done w/o Kreider, but it becomes more difficult to agree upon the alternate pieces.

In any event, it is an expensive proposition, probably too expensive to do.
Conversation like this is good to get a better idea of what cost, if any, would fly.

Like I said, before Kane was available at a slight discount. Now that he's signed, Kane is not going anywhere unless there is reasonable overpayment. I say reasonable as opposed to massive, because only uber elite players like Malkin are worth massive overpayment.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:26 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
The Jets aren't trading him; as such, Jets fans are not overly interested in assigning a trade value to a player that our team is keeping, FYI. Seems like a huge waste of everyone's time. Go start a Benn thread and offer the above Ranger players for him instead.
I agree now that he's signed for a reasonable # you are keeping him.

Kane notwithstanding, I don't think generally speaking there is anything wrong with an exercise in creativity in trying to find out what reasonable overpayment is required to get more desirable players from other teams.

There is a point at which the overpayment becomes too massive and unprofitable. But there may be a sweet spot where it is expensive enough to make the buyer wince, but still worth it, and too good for the seller to pass up.

Not easy. But worth keeping an open mind.

Again, Jet fans, you've paid the price to keep him. Enjoy Kane.

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:28 PM
  #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Like I said, before Kane was available at a slight discount. Now that he's signed, Kane is not going anywhere unless there is reasonable overpayment. I say reasonable as opposed to massive, because only uber elite players like Malkin are worth massive overpayment.
Kane was never available. The only reports stating that he was came from the usual anonymous rumormonger types. The Jets never tried to trade him and have been negotiating with him since the draft.

Quote:
Jets GM Kevin Cheveldayoff said the Jets were no late-comers to this signing. "I think it’s still about managing your budget and managing where things are at within your own organization," he said. "You have financial allocations now and moving forward. "I can only speak for our team. We have been working on this, irrespective of any deadline. We’ve been operating as business as usual and we’ve worked on these negotiations, started with a meeting at the draft with Evander’s representatives all the way through. "The timing... the work and the foundation has been laid for over two months now."
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...169928886.html

Of course it would take a massive overpayment; he has never been available. You should just keep your Ranger players or offer them to someone else.


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