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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXIX

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #951
Bourne Endeavor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What puts Richards above Kesler in your mind? Kesler has outscored him in each of the last three seasons as well as winning a Selke trophy.
I would think he meant playoffs, considering Brown had a poor season and Penner's was downright vile. In that case, I'd agree. Kesler was badly outplayed by Richards in the playoffs, otherwise he definitely the better of the two.

Nonetheless, I agree with the assessment people here have far too high expectations. Our powerplay ran aground and we became complacent following the all star break. There was a wide perception the team was "waiting for the playoffs." When the reality was we lost our spark and were not doing anything about it. Had Hamhuis become a stable on the powerplay in lieu of Salo, we could well have considered to thump teams into the ground. Similar story with the merry-go-round that was our second line.

Personally, I see this past season as a wake up call and the team will commit to a winning mentality like we had back in '11.

Edit: One second glance, it seems he did mean as a whole. Well I certainly have no idea how anyone thinks Richards > Kesler but our fanbase always has been a little bi-polar.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Makes us a better team in the future, but kills us now
Well unless we are getting back a legit top 6 forward, why not build for 2-3 years down the road? Our team as-is isn't good enough to win in the playoffs now without a stellar performance from our goaltender. Hell even then that isn't enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
We're complaining that our secondary scoring isn't scoring. If they did score at a better clip perhaps they'd get more offensive zone starts...if they are spinning their wheels offensively why give them more opportunities to fail when you've got a better option in the Sedins? The Sedins would have put up better numbers if they had some legitimate secondary scoring behind them because it takes pressure off them to produce.
So our secondary scorers need to score at a better clip than secondary scorers around the league in order to be given the same advantages as them? That doesn't make sense.

Answer this: Would the Sedins be 60-70 point players without the huge advantage in offensive zone starts?

If yes, then we are built around the wrong players.
If no, then wouldn't it make sense to give those extra o-zone starts to players who would benefit from them as opposed to feeding them to our top line where we aren't seeing much of a return? See: The Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:21 PM
  #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
He is no longer elite, but he is still a very good goalie and yes he has value.

But his contract and declining play diminishes his value abit.
He is still a top 5 goalie. I don't see how you can claim he's no longer elite. What do you base this on?

In fact, I could only see an argument for Lundqvist, and maybe Quick and Thomas as being better options than Luongo right now.

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09-16-2012, 02:23 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Makes us a better team in the future, but kills us now
If this trade is possible I would do it in a hurry.

Its exactly what Gillis wants. Younger and Bigger.

Gudbranson will be able to replace and if not exceed what Edler can do very soon, Bjugstad looks promising and Petrovic also looks like a sure thing. Add the first in a very good draft and its a no brainer.

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09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Couple of assumptions: NHL lockout lasts 4 months, Eric Gudbranson is healthy in time for training camp.

Assuming Edler doesn't want to re-sign here for a reasonable contract, how about a trade like this:

To Florida:
Roberto Luongo
Alex Edler
Mason Raymond
2nd round pick

To Vancouver:
Eric Gudbranson
Nick Bjugstad
Alex Petrovic
Shawn Matthias
1st round pick
There's absolutely no reason for Florida to do this. Edler will walk. Plus we're sending them way too much $$.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
  #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
He is still a top 5 goalie. I don't see how you can claim he's no longer elite. What do you base this on?

In fact, I could only see an argument for Lundqvist, and maybe Quick and Thomas as being better options than Luongo right now.
Lundqvist, Quick Thomas and Rinne are all clearly better.

Luongo is then in the next tier with a bunch of other guys. Elite are those 4 goalies, Luongo has slipped out of that group IMO.

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09-16-2012, 02:33 PM
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
If this trade is possible I would do it in a hurry.

Its exactly what Gillis wants. Younger and Bigger.

Gudbranson will be able to replace and if not exceed what Edler can do very soon, Bjugstad looks promising and Petrovic also looks like a sure thing. Add the first in a very good draft and its a no brainer.
And what if Gudbranson does not pan out? Need I reminder you of Phaenuf and Doughty? Granted, the latter is far away from that category but the seeds are being lined. Gudbranson is not even a fraction of what either of those players were and you are claiming he would replace Edler today or period? He had 49 points this year and was on pace for 53 last season. All at the age of twenty six.

Too many people act as though Edler is 30+ and entering the twilight years of his career.

The trade you quoted is frankly bad for us. By the time any of those players are likely to pan out. Our core would be finished with the exception of Kesler, and even that is uncertain.

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09-16-2012, 02:34 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Well unless we are getting back a legit top 6 forward, why not build for 2-3 years down the road? Our team as-is isn't good enough to win in the playoffs now without a stellar performance from our goaltender. Hell even then that isn't enough.
Maybe because the Canucks are nothing without the Sedins? Look what this team does when one of the twins is out of the lineup or labouring through injury. Nothing.

Your trade proposal was absurd. You have yet to post a potential trade that is grounded in reality. Roberto Luongo is not a player that is highly coveted. Keep this in mind when proposing deals.

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09-16-2012, 02:35 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I would think he meant playoffs, considering Brown had a poor season and Penner's was downright vile. In that case, I'd agree. Kesler was badly outplayed by Richards in the playoffs, otherwise he definitely the better of the two.

Nonetheless, I agree with the assessment people here have far too high expectations. Our powerplay ran aground and we became complacent following the all star break. There was a wide perception the team was "waiting for the playoffs." When the reality was we lost our spark and were not doing anything about it. Had Hamhuis become a stable on the powerplay in lieu of Salo, we could well have considered to thump teams into the ground. Similar story with the merry-go-round that was our second line.

Personally, I see this past season as a wake up call and the team will commit to a winning mentality like we had back in '11.

Edit: One second glance, it seems he did mean as a whole. Well I certainly have no idea how anyone thinks Richards > Kesler but our fanbase always has been a little bi-polar.
It was playoffs, otherwise Burrows > Brown as well.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:36 PM
  #960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Lundqvist, Quick Thomas and Rinne are all clearly better.

Luongo is then in the next tier with a bunch of other guys. Elite are those 4 goalies, Luongo has slipped out of that group IMO.
That still puts Luongo as a top 5 goalie.

How exactly is Pekka Rinne clearly better? What's he done in the playoffs? Do you realize that his numbers the past two seasons have been very comparable to Luongos? And Luongo didn't have the advantage of a defense-first team with 2 Norris calibre defensemen in front of him.

I would consider anyone who's top 5 at their position to be elite.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And what if Gudbranson does not pan out? Need I reminder you of Phaenuf and Doughty? Granted, the latter is far away from that category but the seeds are being lined. Gudbranson is not even a fraction of what either of those players were and you are claiming he would replace Edler today or period? He had 49 points this year and was on pace for 53 last season. All at the age of twenty six.

Too many people act as though Edler is 30+ and entering the twilight years of his career.

The trade you quoted is frankly bad for us. By the time any of those players are likely to pan out. Our core would be finished with the exception of Kesler, and even that is uncertain.
Have you seen Gudbranson play? He won't bring the same offence, but hes already better defensively. He has the potential to be the dominant force on the backend, something we haven't really ever seen.

And this is coming from someone thats an Edler fan. You won't find me complaining about him, but that trade wouldn't be a bad one.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Well unless we are getting back a legit top 6 forward, why not build for 2-3 years down the road? Our team as-is isn't good enough to win in the playoffs now without a stellar performance from our goaltender. Hell even then that isn't enough.



So our secondary scorers need to score at a better clip than secondary scorers around the league in order to be given the same advantages as them? That doesn't make sense.

Answer this: Would the Sedins be 60-70 point players without the huge advantage in offensive zone starts?

If yes, then we are built around the wrong players.
If no, then wouldn't it make sense to give those extra o-zone starts to players who would benefit from them as opposed to feeding them to our top line where we aren't seeing much of a return? See: The Law of Diminishing Marginal Returns.
Ryan Kesler needs to score at a clip of a top end 2nd line player in order for him to be worthy of taking offensive zone starts away from the Sedins. It's like saying "We should give our 2nd unit more PP time because maybe they'll be better than our top PP unit" in rare cases that might work, but putting lesser offensive players in a role to put up offense than your best offensive players is nonsensical IMO.

If the Sedins had less offensive zone starts they'd produce less obviously, I dont know how much less...if you want to throw out arbitrary numbers, go for it....regardless, if the Sedins get less offensive zone starts then the offense as a whole is reduced because there are no better options to take those offensive zone starts.

Plus, it hasnt really been mentioned but there is more to it than just offensive zone starts...there is defensive matchups, at home and on the road...if we had some legitimate secondary scoring it allows AV to switch things up more to give the Sedins (or Kesler) a competitive advantage....force opposing teams to pick their poison. If its just the Sedins it's easier to focus on them and contain them. If there is 2 lines clicking its that much harder to match up against.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:40 PM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Maybe because the Canucks are nothing without the Sedins? Look what this team does when one of the twins is out of the lineup or labouring through injury. Nothing.

Your trade proposal was absurd. You have yet to post a potential trade that is grounded in reality. Roberto Luongo is not a player that is highly coveted. Keep this in mind when proposing deals.
Our playoff scoring woes with Daniel out (4 goals in 3 games) was still better than what we did with both Sedins in the lineup in the last playoff series they played. Our playoff offense was bad even when they were both in the lineup so....

Why bother allowing the full core to get older and in shambles before going on a full miss-the-playoff type rebuild, when we can retool right now and bet set-up to extend our dominance even past the Sedins?

How is my proposal absurd? You've proposed trading Luongo for a 20 point player and an average prospect. I dont' care what you think or what the people on the trade boards think, Luongo is an elite goalie and if he doesn't net us a return that's useful we shouldn't trade him. My proposal brought us back useful assets. It was a futures trade, but we could also look for a trade that helps us now (top 6 forward).

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Ryan Kesler needs to score at a clip of a top end 2nd line player in order for him to be worthy of taking offensive zone starts away from the Sedins. It's like saying "We should give our 2nd unit more PP time because maybe they'll be better than our top PP unit" in rare cases that might work, but putting lesser offensive players in a role to put up offense than your best offensive players is nonsensical IMO.

If the Sedins had less offensive zone starts they'd produce less obviously, I dont know how much less...if you want to throw out arbitrary numbers, go for it....regardless, if the Sedins get less offensive zone starts then the offense as a whole is reduced because there are no better options to take those offensive zone starts.

Plus, it hasnt really been mentioned but there is more to it than just offensive zone starts...there is defensive matchups, at home and on the road...if we had some legitimate secondary scoring it allows AV to switch things up more to give the Sedins (or Kesler) a competitive advantage....force opposing teams to pick their poison. If its just the Sedins it's easier to focus on them and contain them. If there is 2 lines clicking its that much harder to match up against.
So the Sedins getting around the same offensive zone starts would mean they score less than a lot of first line players? I guess we really are built around the wrong players.

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:44 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So the Sedins getting around the same offensive zone starts would mean they score less than a lot of first line players? I guess we really are built around the wrong players.
Yeah, we could be built around guys like Mike Cammalleri, Marian Gaborik or Olli Jokinen.


If the Sedins dont get any secondary support it doesnt really matter what they produce, or don't.

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09-16-2012, 02:47 PM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Lundqvist, Quick Thomas and Rinne are all clearly better.

Luongo is then in the next tier with a bunch of other guys. Elite are those 4 goalies, Luongo has slipped out of that group IMO.
Don't feel Rinne belongs there, yet.

Quick and Lundqvist play in defensive systems.

Thomas retired.

I think Luongo is still elite, but for how long is definitely up in the air.

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09-16-2012, 02:55 PM
  #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Yeah, we could be built around guys like Mike Cammalleri, Marian Gaborik or Olli Jokinen.


If the Sedins dont get any secondary support it doesnt really matter what they produce, or don't.
Why do you even bring up Jokinen? It's a myth that I ever wanted to deal them for just him. That's absolutely absurd.

And hey, Gaborik and Cammalleri went for higher than I said I'd have given them too.

Of course the Sedins don't get secondary support, it's kinda tough when your secondary scorers start out in the defensive zone all the time.

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09-16-2012, 02:58 PM
  #968
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why do you even bring up Jokinen? It's a myth that I ever wanted to deal them for just him. That's absolutely absurd.

And hey, Gaborik and Cammalleri went for higher than I said I'd have given them too.

Of course the Sedins don't get secondary support, it's kinda tough when your secondary scorers start out in the defensive zone all the time.
If they want more offensive zone starts, produce some offense to prove they are capable of taking advantage of them.

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09-16-2012, 03:01 PM
  #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
If they want more offensive zone starts, produce some offense to prove they are capable of taking advantage of them.
When the Sedins had their 9 game pointless streak how come they were still spoon-fed opportunities?

Kind of hard to produce at a higher level when you're put at a disadvantage off the back. If the Sedins want 70% offensive zone starts then they should be producing significantly more than other first line forwards who only receive 55% offensive zone starts. Maybe the likes of Kesler et al would produce more if they had 55% offensive zone starts?

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09-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #970
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33 yr old Lu is pretty hard to trade, but what about 34 yr old Lu?

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #971
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
When the Sedins had their 9 game pointless streak how come they were still spoon-fed opportunities?

Kind of hard to produce at a higher level when you're put at a disadvantage off the back. If the Sedins want 70% offensive zone starts then they should be producing significantly more than other first line forwards who only receive 55% offensive zone starts. Maybe the likes of Kesler et al would produce more if they had 55% offensive zone starts?
Probably because they were still a better offensive threat than anyone else the team has. If Kesler's line was producing similar to how they did in the previous year it's likely they would have recieved more offensive zone starts.

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09-16-2012, 03:13 PM
  #972
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Alright, since our team isn't good enough, here's what we do:

Sedins to Columbus for Ryan Murray, Ryan Johansson, and 4 1st round picks.

Kesler+Luongo to Florida for Huberdeau + Gudbranson

Hamhuis to Winnipeg for Evander Kane

Bieksa to Philadelphia for Read + 1st

Edler to Edmonton for Yakupov

Am I doing this right? Maybe then we could get some real NHL players as opposed to the ones we have right now who all stink.

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09-16-2012, 03:20 PM
  #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Alright, since our team isn't good enough, here's what we do:

Sedins to Columbus for Ryan Murray, Ryan Johansson, and 4 1st round picks.

Kesler+Luongo to Florida for Huberdeau + Gudbranson

Hamhuis to Winnipeg for Evander Kane

Bieksa to Philadelphia for Read + 1st

Edler to Edmonton for Yakupov

Am I doing this right? Maybe then we could get some real NHL players as opposed to the ones we have right now who all stink.
That offense won't be able to produce in the playoffs

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09-16-2012, 03:23 PM
  #974
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That offense won't be able to produce in the playoffs
Of course not, we won't be seeing the playoffs for about 5 years as we tank and get Mackinnon and Jones, etc, etc, so that finally we will have a team head and shoulders over anyone else. Then we win one cup, get capstrated, and do it all over again. Worth it, right?

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09-16-2012, 04:04 PM
  #975
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And what if Gudbranson does not pan out? Need I reminder you of Phaenuf and Doughty? Granted, the latter is far away from that category but the seeds are being lined. Gudbranson is not even a fraction of what either of those players were and you are claiming he would replace Edler today or period? He had 49 points this year and was on pace for 53 last season. All at the age of twenty six.

Too many people act as though Edler is 30+ and entering the twilight years of his career.

The trade you quoted is frankly bad for us. By the time any of those players are likely to pan out. Our core would be finished with the exception of Kesler, and even that is uncertain.
minor point, but drew doughty the second best player on last year's cup champs?

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