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Who do you hope 'wins', the owners or players' union?

View Poll Results: Which side do you favor more?
On balance I hope that the owners get more of what they are asking 61 56.48%
On balance I hope that the players get more of what they are asking 35 32.41%
I hope that they both go to hell, I am never watching hockey again. 7 6.48%
There is a strike? Who cares, Bella and Edward broke up, OMG. 5 4.63%
Voters: 108. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-16-2012, 03:54 PM
  #126
DyerMaker66
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
so maybe they'd get more support if they could afford better teams? Nashville and Florida both had significant increases in attendance lately. If they can keep improving the teams, they should keep improving financially.



they've been a terrible team. They had a decent season for the first time in over a decade and people showed up. It's weird how that works.
This seems to say that they didn't:

http://www.thehockeyfanatic.com/2012...rth-2011-2012/

As does this:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

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09-16-2012, 03:55 PM
  #127
Big McLargehuge
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Florida is losing money and has lousy television ratings...but their ownership is secure and loyal to the area and they have a very team-friendly iron-clad lease.

The Panthers aren't going anywhere for at least two decades. The sooner everyone accepts that the sooner we can move on.


Teams move because of ownership issues, not fan support. You don't need to look any further than the cities that lost their teams in the 90s to see that or have even a basic understanding of the Thrashers situation.

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09-16-2012, 03:59 PM
  #128
Tafkak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
This seems to say that they didn't:

http://www.thehockeyfanatic.com/2012...rth-2011-2012/
What did that have to do with people showing up? They played to almost a 90% capacity last season, an average of +1,000 people compared to the previous season. (This was posted before you posted the ESPN chart.)

Their arena, in it's current format, seats 17,040 people, they averaged 16,628, which should be a percentage of 97%. I'm guessing ESPN is going by their old arena seating format.

I would call that a success for a team that is on the climb.


Last edited by Tafkak: 09-16-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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09-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Florida is losing money and has lousy television ratings...but their ownership is secure and loyal to the area and they have a very team-friendly iron-clad lease.

The Panthers aren't going anywhere for at least two decades. The sooner everyone accepts that the sooner we can move on.


Teams move because of ownership issues, not fan support. You don't need to look any further than the cities that lost their teams in the 90s to see that or have even a basic understanding of the Thrashers situation.
NJ is in trouble then. Horrendous ownership issues and next to zero fan support.

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09-16-2012, 04:03 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Their attendance jumped by over 1000 per game in the last year. Considering they had their first good season in like 12 years, I'm sure there are a lot of skeptics. Let's see what happens if they can actually keep a good team.

And also what those guys said. They aren't going anywhere.

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09-16-2012, 04:06 PM
  #131
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NJ is in trouble then. Horrendous ownership issues and next to zero fan support.
NJ is absolutely more likely to be moved than Florida is. Not saying they are likely to be moved, but more likely of the two.

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09-16-2012, 04:11 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainZappBrannigan View Post
NJ is in trouble then. Horrendous ownership issues and next to zero fan support.
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
NJ is absolutely more likely to be moved than Florida is. Not saying they are likely to be moved, but more likely of the two.
Ogre beat me to it. Neither are likely to move, but New Jersey is far more likely given the circumstances with the ownership issues and the fact that their lease is in question because of said ownership issues (it's not nearly as ironclad as Florida's, Columbus's, or our own)...that is to say there's like a 2% chance of the Devils moving, compared to a 0.2% chance of the Panthers moving.

The only reason the Devils have been able to do what they've done these past few years (that is spend to the cap despite limited fan support and the expenses of opening a new arena) was because of the positive ownership...but Vanderbeek may well end up being New Jersey's Howard Baldwin, spending money that he didn't actually have...but at least Vanderbeek got an arena built.

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09-16-2012, 04:13 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
NJ is absolutely more likely to be moved than Florida is. Not saying they are likely to be moved, but more likely of the two.
Especially with them having difficulty getting this cash infusion. I haven't been keeping up with the NJD and their ownership but didn't the NHL say they were going to step in, if needed? (A'la Phoenix 2.0.)

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09-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #134
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What did that have to do with people showing up? They played to almost a 90% capacity last season, an average of +1,000 people compared to the previous season. (This was posted before you posted the ESPN chart.)

Their arena, in it's current format, seats 17,040 people, they averaged 16,628, which should be a percentage of 97%. I'm guessing ESPN is going by their old arena seating format.

I would call that a success for a team that is on the climb.
That's even better! "We can't even come close to filling this arena, so we'll just take away some seats." That's a positive thing, right?

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09-16-2012, 04:41 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
That's even better! "We can't even come close to filling this arena, so we'll just take away some seats." That's a positive thing, right?
they still gained an extra 1000 people per game. One decent season in over a decade has almost gotten them out of the bottom 10 in attendance.

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09-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #136
Til the End of Time
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its amusing to me that pens fans can criticize other teams for poor attendance, when it took 2 generational players and a new arena for fans in pittsburgh to start showing up to games.

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09-16-2012, 04:49 PM
  #137
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its amusing to me that pens fans can criticize other teams for poor attendance, when it took 2 generational players and a new arena for fans in pittsburgh to start showing up to games.
and look what happens to the Buccos attendance as they do well and then start struggling. We just aren't a big enough market to fill the arenas when the teams are bad. Not many are.

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09-16-2012, 04:52 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
its amusing to me that pens fans can criticize other teams for poor attendance, when it took 2 generational players and a new arena for fans in pittsburgh to start showing up to games.
Indeed. The rationale for some fans when it comes to moving teams is just inane and misguided.

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09-16-2012, 04:57 PM
  #139
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Bella and Edward make more sense to me than Bettman and Fehr.

Hey look... Steelers.

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09-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #140
DyerMaker66
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Indeed. The rationale for some fans when it comes to moving teams is just inane and misguided.
Yes: Adding two Franchises that would automatically make money, including one that would be among the top 5 in league revenues, is always inane and misguided.

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09-16-2012, 05:09 PM
  #141
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Yes: Adding two Franchises that would automatically make money, including one that would be among the top 5 in league revenues, is always inane and misguided.
It's really not that easy.

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09-16-2012, 05:20 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Yes: Adding two Franchises that would automatically make money, including one that would be among the top 5 in league revenues, is always inane and misguided.
And again, 10 years ago fans from other teams were saying that about the Pens. If the Pens can show the level of success they are going through right now, I'm willing to give any team in the league its fair shot.


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09-16-2012, 05:49 PM
  #143
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People want to make out like the soft cap is a defining issue for the players when its really not. Put it this way: the NHLPA willing to play the season under the current hard cap conditions, and the other isn't. So clearly, it's a negotiating point.

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You don't seem to understand what I was saying there. Re-read the sequence of posts.

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09-16-2012, 06:21 PM
  #144
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And again, 10 years ago fans from other teams were saying that about the Pens. If the Pens can show the level of success they are going through right now, I'm willing to give any team in the league its fair shot.
And 10 years before that, they weren't. Hence, those people are wrong.

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09-16-2012, 06:24 PM
  #145
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People want to make out like the soft cap is a defining issue for the players when its really not. Put it this way: the NHLPA willing to play the season under the current hard cap conditions, and the other isn't. So clearly, it's a negotiating point.



You don't seem to understand what I was saying there. Re-read the sequence of posts.
Yeah, my bad: I misread that.

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09-16-2012, 06:36 PM
  #146
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And 10 years before that, they weren't. Hence, those people are wrong.
When Florida has a good team, they have good attendance too. You are basing your opinion on their attendance during the all time league record for consecutive years without making the playoffs.

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09-16-2012, 06:38 PM
  #147
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When Florida was making that Cup run in the mid-90's...that place was crazy.

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09-16-2012, 07:09 PM
  #148
Tafkak
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
And 10 years before that, they weren't. Hence, those people are wrong.
10 years before that the Pens were going through an ownership change and spending money beyond their means. Are you sure you don't want to rephrase that?

Do you not recall the early 90's, Baldwin's spending beyond his means, and the subsequent bankruptcy? Even during the mid-90's there was talk that Baldwin would relocate the team for some cash (the Pens were, I believe, 90 million in debt and deferring Lemieux's salary) or sell it sooner than he went on to do. The Pens couldn't even sell out the arena during the 90's despite 2 Stanley Cups and a yearly contender, yet you wonder why a team that had 10 losing seasons ran into attendance, fan support and money problems?

Hell, no more than 5 years ago the Pens were in the exact spot (actually, one lower according to Forbes) than the Panthers and look at the turnaround that the Pens have went through. In this league with the parity between all the teams, any team can turn it around and turn into a contender in a short span.


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09-16-2012, 07:18 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
People want to make out like the soft cap is a defining issue for the players when its really not. Put it this way: the NHLPA willing to play the season under the current hard cap conditions, and the other isn't. So clearly, it's a negotiating point.
And what would stop Fehr and the NHLPA from going on strike right before the playoffs? In-fact I would wager large amounts of money in that happening if they continued to not reach an agreement.

Fehr and the MLBPA ruined that for the rest of the sports leagues and CBA talks when he pulled his stunt almost 20 years ago. The NHL would be idiotic to continue into the season without a CBA in place. Talks could/should have started in November or shortly thereafter when the NHL said they weren't going to extend this CBA.

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09-16-2012, 08:53 PM
  #150
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There was already too much wrangling going on with this current hard cap that gave advantages to big market teams. The last thing we should be doing is relaxing that and going to a soft cap. Big market teams flexing their muscles front loading ridiculously long term massive contracts, stashing under performing expensive players in the minors or on the LTIR. These are the tricks these teams already used to circumvent the cap system, the last thing they need are more tools to do it.

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