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In (Partial) Defense Of Scott Howson's Recent Trade History

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Old
09-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
I'm not a fan of the return Howson got, but you're severely underrating Dubinsky and Anisimov (to a certain extent). Dubinsky is a 50-pt scorer who has played top-6 roles and will have his role expanded as a Blue Jacket. Same goes for Anisimov, who was borderline (albeit still a 3rd line C/alternated as wing too). They're not sexy names by any means, but they are serviceable.
To be fair, Dubinsky has hit 50+ points only once. He's been really more of a 40 point player.

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09-16-2012, 03:40 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
To be fair, Dubinsky has hit 50+ points only once. He's been really more of a 40 point player.
Also he hasn't played center regularly in several seasons. He's had the most success at left wing.

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Originally Posted by DJB View Post
All together they are more valuable, individually? Nash is easily the most valuable.

Del Zotto and McDonagh are top 4 defenceman. Kreider is still only a prospect with a couple of playoff games under his belt and Stepan is a young player with one decent season.

None of them are more valuable then a solid 1st line winger. Saying otherwise is simply silly.
You're seriously shafting the value of those players and their cap hits (and McDonagh's a top pairing defenseman, not just top four), but the discussion is pointless: Sather was never going to deal any of them for Nash.

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09-16-2012, 04:19 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Around here we call that the Doug MacLean phenomenon. Howson has yet to substantially prove otherwise because his favorite draft picks are NCAA and long-term types, and folks perversely focus more on Filatov than they do Voracek - unless, of course, they're looking for more ways to criticize us w/r/t the Carter trade.

Some hesitation on evaluations is completely understandable... but that doesn't change current prospect needs at all. The regular failures of Nikita Filatov and the Doug MacLean boys** does not mean that a shotgun gambler's approach to the draft is the right one, nor does it justify "you HAVE to take these B-level prospects because all of yours inevitably suck because they're yours.*"

*: Which makes for some bizarre twisted logic; do the prospects folks insist on us taking immediately become sucky 'cause they're suddenly now Jackets as well? The mind reels.

**: I think I just found another band name.



Seems fair to me. I justify claiming that last is as unlikely as playoffs mostly because most of the factors that got us down that far are either gone or unlikely to be repeated at the same scale. So, IOW, it would take something exceptionally bad to get us there - just as it would take something exceptionally good to get us in the playoffs.
When you are done making excuses maybe you can start defending Howson. And I don't mean that to inflame you or anything, but all you have said is that some posters on HF didn't expect Columbus to suck and that Carter has some sort of mental illness

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09-16-2012, 05:16 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
When you are done making excuses maybe you can start defending Howson. And I don't mean that to inflame you or anything, but all you have said is that some posters on HF didn't expect Columbus to suck and that Carter has some sort of mental illness
Thanks for sharing.

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09-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #155
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For the first trade, I think a lot of people saw it as an awful trade at the time. In theory, it wasn't too bad of an idea to start with. "Hey, we need another top line player to go with Nash so we can improve and make the playoffs. I think we can replace Voracek with the guy we're getting back and we can afford to trade away our 8th overall pick because we're trying to make a push now and it's unlikely the guy we find at 8th overall will be an impact player next year."

That's all solid reasoning. I like it. It may have worked if they targeted a different player than Carter, perhaps Mike Richards would have been a phenomenal target. Heck, even someone like Paul Stastny who has been rumored to be on the trading block since forever would have been a decent target - probably would have been much cheaper than Carter too.

Problems with Carter:

- Shoot first center. Why would you think he'd work well with a shoot first winger? (Yes, I know both Carter and Nash have decent playmaking skills and can make a beautiful pass in a pinch. That doesn't change their nature, which is to shoot the puck when they get anything close to a decent opportunity)

- His last 4 seasons (before this year) had stat lines of 53p, 84p, 61p, 66p. Aside from one year where he had an abnormally high shooting percentage (relative to all of his other years), he's been nothing more than a 35g-30a player. That's good, but how big of an improvement is that on Voracek? About 15 goals? Do you sacrifice a top-10 pick for 15 goals?

- If you look at the top-10, there were a lot of pretty awesome picks, even if Couturier didn't drop. Hamilton, Siemens and Murphy would be the caliber of prospect you're trading away. If you're giving up one of those guys, you have to be making a vast improvement over Voracek (which Carter wasn't).

Good rationale for needing a trade and good selection of what assets to trade away but an exceedingly poor target to acquire.

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09-16-2012, 07:06 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by CloutierForVezina View Post
For the first trade, I think a lot of people saw it as an awful trade at the time. In theory, it wasn't too bad of an idea to start with. "Hey, we need another top line player to go with Nash so we can improve and make the playoffs. I think we can replace Voracek with the guy we're getting back and we can afford to trade away our 8th overall pick because we're trying to make a push now and it's unlikely the guy we find at 8th overall will be an impact player next year."

That's all solid reasoning. I like it. It may have worked if they targeted a different player than Carter, perhaps Mike Richards would have been a phenomenal target. Heck, even someone like Paul Stastny who has been rumored to be on the trading block since forever would have been a decent target - probably would have been much cheaper than Carter too.

Problems with Carter:

- Shoot first center. Why would you think he'd work well with a shoot first winger? (Yes, I know both Carter and Nash have decent playmaking skills and can make a beautiful pass in a pinch. That doesn't change their nature, which is to shoot the puck when they get anything close to a decent opportunity)

- His last 4 seasons (before this year) had stat lines of 53p, 84p, 61p, 66p. Aside from one year where he had an abnormally high shooting percentage (relative to all of his other years), he's been nothing more than a 35g-30a player. That's good, but how big of an improvement is that on Voracek? About 15 goals? Do you sacrifice a top-10 pick for 15 goals?

- If you look at the top-10, there were a lot of pretty awesome picks, even if Couturier didn't drop. Hamilton, Siemens and Murphy would be the caliber of prospect you're trading away. If you're giving up one of those guys, you have to be making a vast improvement over Voracek (which Carter wasn't).

Good rationale for needing a trade and good selection of what assets to trade away but an exceedingly poor target to acquire.
Carter could have worked with Huselius, if he wasnt injured so damn much. Brassard - Nash , Carter - Huselius would have been a good balance of playmaking and scoring(also assuming Arniel wasn't an idiot and decided to let the kid(Brassard) play.)

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09-16-2012, 07:15 PM
  #157
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Carter gets such a bad rap from what happened to CBJ and i never understood why. He is not a team cancer or a diva. He is actually a shy quite guy who keeps to himself.

The trade for him was justified for many reasons. He is a top talent at center and has 2 elite skills that make him a desirable player. He is a significant 2 way contributor and his skating allows him to move the puck out of the dzone. If he played 2nd line center for CBJ he would have been able to put up very good numbers while helping some of younger wingers. Put to put him on a top line with nash was a mistake from the start.

CBJ further botched the deal by selling on carter short. Here you have a top center in the league when healthy and locked up to a 5.2 mill cap hit....that is amazing for a team like cbj.

If i were them i would have held on to carter and nash for one more year either to see if it worked or to improve trade value.
Problem is that Carter isn't actually a bonafide #1 center. Outside of his PPG season with his 40+ goals, he's a 35 goal, 30 assist player. Those are obviously really good but a top talent center? No. They would have been much better trading for Richards.

He's a shoot first kind of player. That was never going to work with a player like Rich Nash.

And I watched 90% of the games that Carter played in Philly and a good portion of games that he played in Columbus and LA. He barely tried in Columbus.

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You have made it well known for a long time about your hate for JC. Im not going to lie and say i watched more CBJ games than you , but i watched 7 games of Jeff carter when he was a CBJ, and from my point of view it looked like a team that was in such disarray it was hard to pick out who was trying and who was just plain bad. IN one of the games I did not see Nash go into one defensive corner the whole game. IN fact that seemed to be a theme for CBJ last year, a huge disconnect between the skilled players and the blue collar players.


Personally if i was the GM i would have chalked up last season as a disaster but a disaster that does not need to be touched. Wiz and Carter had huge injuries all year. A full season of them , and if they had gotten lucky at the draft and gotten yakupov and this team could have a killer top 6 all of a sudden.


NOw?

Now the team is void of talent on the roster and in the minors. While they have a potential stud goalie in bob and a defensive unit that can be considered very respectful the offense is going to be miserable.

Howson compounded all his mistakes by selling too short and too soon. For him to not come away with kreider, del zotto, or stepan is just pathetic. We are talking Rick Nash here for christ sake and he does not get a respectable package at all. Very disappointing for your team , and honestly the team you are fielding this next year will be even worst imo.
1. His return for Carter was actually good. A 1st round pick that could help them, or at least increase their chances, of winning a potential lottery pick and Jack Johnson, who's performed very, very well in Columbus.

2. He didn't sell too soon. He sold too late. I liked the Rangers earlier offer (if it were true) better than the offer he eventually accepted.

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When the Carter trade happened I thought that Richards would have been a much better fit for CBJ than Carter
Agreed.

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:38 PM
  #158
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Viqsi, I agree with your general sentiment here. Howson gets bagged on constantly, and it is undeserved. I wouldn't say that Howson is anywhere above average as a GM, mind you. But he is far from the bafoon that many will make him out to be on HF.

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09-16-2012, 07:41 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Thanks for sharing.
Hey I'm going to start a thread in the trade rumors section defending my GM who has led my team to consistent failure! And when people come in and call me out, I will proceed to use a series of emoticons in order to express my anger that someone would try to argue with me... in a forum!

I still want a response to my accusations that no competent NHL GM would believe in Wisniewski as a #1, Mason as a starting goalie, RJ Umberger + ancient Prospal as 1st liners, letting the Nash situation devolve as it did.

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09-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
Hey I'm going to start a thread in the trade rumors section defending my GM who has led my team to consistent failure! And when people come in and call me out, I will proceed to use a series of emoticons in order to express my anger that someone would try to argue with me... in a forum!

I still want a response to my accusations that no competent NHL GM would believe in Wisniewski as a #1, Mason as a starting goalie, RJ Umberger + ancient Prospal as 1st liners, letting the Nash situation devolve as it did.
... yet your a Kings fan and you're team had 3 consecutive top 5 picks, no? And one of those picks was Hickey, a complete bust, no?

Maybe you should go look back at some of the starting goalies the Kings had before Quick and some of the players that were playing with Kopitar. Because I can tell you, it wasn't very pretty.

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09-16-2012, 08:44 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Thanks for sharing.
Don't start a thread if you don't want criticism. It's really obvious you have a chip on your shoulder and feel like Columbus gets unfairly slighted by people on the forum, the media, etc. If you don't want to draw attention to your organizational failings and subsequent mockery then don't start a thread centered around defending it.

Like I said before, you're trying to push forth the "look guys, he made chicken salad out of chicken ****" point of view, but HE'S THE GUY CHOOSING TO USE CHICKEN ****.

You don't spend to the cap and trade for proven players when you're a bottom five team. You don't constantly, drastically change the kind of team you want (okay we want this coach and the team is a good defensive one, okay nevermind, i want this coach and they're gonna play like Philly, wait scratch that, now i want a defensive team, someone get the marketing department on the phone, sell the public that we've got a really good blue line hurrr)

The team has spent more and gotten worse since he has been GM. Your supposed franchise player asked out. You're an expansion team and last season, while spending to the cap, you literally were the worst you've ever been. AS AN EXPANSION TEAM. AFTER A DECADE. YOU WERE WORSE.

There is no defending Scott Howson. There is no defending JP McConnell, there's no defending anyone in the organization. You will always lose this argument because facts matter more than feelings.

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09-16-2012, 09:18 PM
  #162
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He could have gotten more for Nash if the teams that he had chosen were not released the public or other teams. There should be stronger confidentiality language in these contracts.

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09-16-2012, 09:50 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by DJB View Post
All together they are more valuable, individually? Nash is easily the most valuable.
I disagree. The 4 players you listed, I believe they all have more value than Nash in a trade.

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Del Zotto and McDonagh are top 4 defenceman. Kreider is still only a prospect with a couple of playoff games under his belt and Stepan is a young player with one decent season.
Del Zotto is not only a top 4 defenseman, he's a #3 d-man with sky-high upside offensively. He was 18th in d-man scoring last year as a 21 year old. He also stepped his game up offensively in the playoffs when the rest of the team couldn't score. He'll likely get signed to a bridge contract like Staal and Girardi were, no more than 3m per for 2 yrs. When you factor in that type of production at that cap hit, it's one of the biggest bargain contracts in the league.

McDonagh as just a top 4 d-man is selling him way short. He's a top 2 d-man on a top defensive team in the league. His combination of skating, vision and hockey IQ makes him the most valuable player on the Rangers team in a trade. He still has one year left at $1,300,000, which is worth gold in the salary cap for a defenseman who plays half the game in a shutdown role and dominates competition.

Stepan at his .875m cap hit along with legit 2nd line production also makes him a valuable commodity in the salary cap era. You have to look at the way he's developed since being drafted: leading USA in points in WJC in defeat of Canada in 2010, followed by success in the NHL level as a rookie, PPG at the WC against men and legitimatizing himself as a 2nd line centerman on a contending team , he is essentially developing at an alarming rate. With his skill level, I see him being a Pavelski lite player and I think that's a player that's more valuable than Nash on his own.

Kreider, again, brings a year on his ELC and has progressed at both ends of the rink with BC. Rangers brass is very high on him and how he's progressed from a high school player to a scoring forward in the NHL playoffs. Kreider @ 1.325 >>>> Nash at 7.8.

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09-16-2012, 09:55 PM
  #164
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In all fairness, is Columbus really much worse on paper than STL?
They are some good coaching away from being a dangerous team.
When I saw your comment I pictured two paper lineups shaped like people beating the crap out of one another. For the record, I'm pretty sure the Blues paper lineup would win. That "Paper Championship" would be ours I tell ya.

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09-16-2012, 10:01 PM
  #165
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any partial success howson has had in trades is overshadowed by the organization continuing to start and rely on sieve "five-hole, glove-side, every hole" mason and firing/releasing to St. Louis Ken "Jack Adams" Hitchcock.

GMs should capable of distinguishing between jack adams and arniel-level coaching, and of seeing that mason has nothing left to give except 2 goals in the first five minutes of every game.

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09-16-2012, 10:26 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by PayItForward View Post
... yet your a Kings fan and you're team had 3 consecutive top 5 picks, no? And one of those picks was Hickey, a complete bust, no?

Maybe you should go look back at some of the starting goalies the Kings had before Quick and some of the players that were playing with Kopitar. Because I can tell you, it wasn't very pretty.
oh yeah your "your team sucks so back off, broooo..." technique fails because Dave Taylor was a bad GM. So please, stick to the sandbox kiddyo

and if you are trying to say that Lombardi is a bad GM somehow well...


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09-16-2012, 11:07 PM
  #167
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I disagree. The 4 players you listed, I believe they all have more value than Nash in a trade.
I think that only McDonagh would have more value in a trade (because McD is a freaking stud, and I say that as a NJD fan).

MDZ a year ago was AHL fodder and had the big B label written all over him. He had a great turn-around season and this boosted his trade value, but to say he's worth more than an Olympic gold-medalist still in his prime is misguided.

Stepan is close in value, but I believe he has yet to turn a corner offensively that would lead to him having the same kind of trade value as Nash. His contract is an absolute beauty however and I think he's worth more to the Rangers than Nash is now.

Kreider is overrated IMO (but let's not let this thread become about that), but would still command a hefty return based on his strong playoff performance and high profile play in the NCAA. I don't think there's any GM in the league however who would give up more for a player who may become a 30-40 goal power-winger than a player who already is a 30-40 goal power-winger.


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09-17-2012, 12:08 AM
  #168
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One bad season and Dubinsky is a 3rd liner? Give me a break. I think you'll see that he is capable of being effective 2C in Columbus.
Dubinsky has been playing at a 3rd line level for over a year and a half. Taking him in the trade was just dumb

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09-17-2012, 12:13 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Around here we call that the Doug MacLean phenomenon. Howson has yet to substantially prove otherwise because his favorite draft picks are NCAA and long-term types, and folks perversely focus more on Filatov than they do Voracek - unless, of course, they're looking for more ways to criticize us w/r/t the Carter trade.

Some hesitation on evaluations is completely understandable... but that doesn't change current prospect needs at all. The regular failures of Nikita Filatov and the Doug MacLean boys** does not mean that a shotgun gambler's approach to the draft is the right one, nor does it justify "you HAVE to take these B-level prospects because all of yours inevitably suck because they're yours.*"

*: Which makes for some bizarre twisted logic; do the prospects folks insist on us taking immediately become sucky 'cause they're suddenly now Jackets as well? The mind reels.

**: I think I just found another band name.



Seems fair to me. I justify claiming that last is as unlikely as playoffs mostly because most of the factors that got us down that far are either gone or unlikely to be repeated at the same scale. So, IOW, it would take something exceptionally bad to get us there - just as it would take something exceptionally good to get us in the playoffs.
Yes but given the CBJ history, wouldn't having alot more picks, give you guys a better chance at hitting on some players? They better not screw up Ryan Murray and I hope they don't

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09-17-2012, 12:40 AM
  #170
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Very well written and informative

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09-17-2012, 02:22 AM
  #171
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Jeff Carter has been a known quantity for years. He's a highly skilled shotgun-rider, a complementary player whose singular asset happens to be scoring goals. He's never been a leader, a dogged-competitor, or a multi-faceted player (even though he isn't necessarily weak or below average in any category). He's that deep threat wide receiver in the NFL - they guy they show in the highlights whose actual game might be better served as a sexy decoy rather than someone you count on for consistency.

Rick Nash is a very similar player, except he was shoe-horned into a leadership role. The problem is that Howson traded way, way too much for a complementary player without fully realizing how he would fit into his roster. So many of us knew this ahead of time, and when you add in the fact that Carter had just signed a long-term below open market deal, you have a recipe for an unneeded and predictible disaster.

You don't load up on complementary players when you lack any real driving force or responsibility from your team. There is no play-making in Columbus, not now, nor in the near future because of poor drafting, and league-worst by a country mile player development which includes rushing players into the league before they are ready.

There is no discernable plan in Columbus, and no reason to believe it is coming soon. The Nash deal brought in a nice collection of More Of The Same, without any real skill or anything other than "nice" potential. The most tradable asset brought back another round of support players who have nobody above them to support.

I'm a Kings fan, and while I firmly believe that Johnson will be a fixture on Western Conference All Star squads in a few short seasons, it is absolutely true that he has some bigtime problems reading plays and understanding passing and shooting lanes. His minus numbers are not some mystery - he gives up far too many gaps, collapses in too deep and in general has a hard time making decisions at an NHL pace. It's understandable too - he was part of the Michigan showtime style of hockey that doesn't hammer home the basics of defensive hockey, and he never saw any AHL developmental time. He's on the slow boil, and I believe he will end up just fine, and a team leader.

There just isn't enough raw talent to escalate Columbus out of the doldrums in the forseeable future. The St. Louis comparsion is laughable - the 2011-12 Florida squad is the better comparison for a tough, scrappy surprise squad. But even then, both Florida and St. Louis have FAR better prospects on the way behind what were already playoff-level squads.

Johnson is likely a damn good fix for a stupid decision in dealing for Carter. But the Nash trade didn't do anything for the franchise that their AHL blueline prospects and Dorsett and Brassard aren't already doing. It was the wrong mix, and Howson shouldn't have settled for it. Fire him, do it quickly, and move on to someone with a vision other than just competing.

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09-17-2012, 02:40 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Carter could have worked with Huselius, if he wasnt injured so damn much. Brassard - Nash , Carter - Huselius would have been a good balance of playmaking and scoring(also assuming Arniel wasn't an idiot and decided to let the kid(Brassard) play.)
Here's the thing about Carter...you think that he's a shoot first center, so matching him with a playmaker is a good idea, so as not to waste two shooters by having them hog the puck from one another. But it doesn't work with Carter to pair him with a play maker type. Carter is a puck carrier and needs to being carrying the puck to play his game for the most part. His one timer doesn't exist as far as I can tell. His stick is eight feet long so his hands around the net pretty much limit him to shooting it into goalies and slamming it against their pads. He needs to be carrying the puck and shooting it, with two big ass wingers, screening goalies, chasing his missed shots into the corners or banging rebounds home. That's why he was as productive as he was with Lupul and Hartnell. They each have good touch around the net, can go get a puck out of a corner, screen a bit and can pass well enough.

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09-17-2012, 06:57 AM
  #173
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One bad season and Dubinsky is a 3rd liner? Give me a break. I think you'll see that he is capable of being effective 2C in Columbus.
Dubinsky hasn't been a center for over a season now. His best season came playing on the wing.

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Old
09-17-2012, 03:12 PM
  #174
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans420 View Post
Hey I'm going to start a thread in the trade rumors section defending my GM who has led my team to consistent failure! And when people come in and call me out, I will proceed to use a series of emoticons in order to express my anger that someone would try to argue with me... in a forum!
Hon, if you're going to disagree, do so competently and with reasoned analysis, not blind assertions and insults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Generally View Post
Don't start a thread if you don't want criticism.
See above reply. Also, please compare and contrast results under Scott Howson versus results under Doug MacLean in re: "you were worse" someday.

I don't mind debates and figuring out where I may have gone wrong. But neither of you two are contributing effectively at all.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK 421 View Post
When I saw your comment I pictured two paper lineups shaped like people beating the crap out of one another. For the record, I'm pretty sure the Blues paper lineup would win. That "Paper Championship" would be ours I tell ya.
Oh, certainly. The goaltending is a decisive factor there. I think he was referring to the rest of the lineup.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Yes but given the CBJ history, wouldn't having alot more picks, give you guys a better chance at hitting on some players?
Not really, no. Please read that Elliotte Friedman article I've cited before; he did a much better job of the analysis. Here's a link:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...cks-trade.html

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Jeff Carter has been a known quantity for years. He's a highly skilled shotgun-rider, a complementary player whose singular asset happens to be scoring goals. He's never been a leader, a dogged-competitor, or a multi-faceted player (even though he isn't necessarily weak or below average in any category). He's that deep threat wide receiver in the NFL - they guy they show in the highlights whose actual game might be better served as a sexy decoy rather than someone you count on for consistency.
And if that was the player we'd had on the ice, that would have been quite sufficient. We didn't even get that much out of him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
The problem is that Howson traded way, way too much for a complementary player without fully realizing how he would fit into his roster. So many of us knew this ahead of time, and when you add in the fact that Carter had just signed a long-term below open market deal, you have a recipe for an unneeded and predictible disaster.
I'm sorry, how did Mike Richards (traded under identical circumstances) work out for LA?

Jeff Carter's problems are largely due to Jeff Carter. Where Howson can be faulted (and where, if you look carefully in the OP, I do fault him) is not fully realizing who Jeff Carter was as a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
You don't load up on complementary players when you lack any real driving force or responsibility from your team.
Um. We added a lot of players this offseason addressing that very point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
There is no play-making in Columbus, not now, nor in the near future because of poor drafting, and league-worst by a country mile player development which includes rushing players into the league before they are ready.
Doug MacLean hasn't worked here in over five years.

It may behoove you to review how player development has operated here since he left. By and large we've stuck to long-term project guys, particularly NCAA folks, and it's been working out slowly.

Also, this makes it sound like you're surprisingly unfamiliar with Derick Brassard and/or Ryan Johansen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
There is no discernable plan in Columbus, and no reason to believe it is coming soon.
I can tell you what it is right now:
  • Ice a team with a never-say-die-never-quit mentality, as pushed by existing guys like DD and Prospal and Wisniewski and additions like JMFJ, Dubinsky, and Foligno.
  • Draft talent - and/or take existing guys (particularly Johansen, Atkinson, Murray, Moore, Savard, and Erixon) - and have them "grow up" in that environment.
  • Let simmer for a year or three.
  • Profit.
There had appeared to be a "team mentality"/responsibility culture installed when Hitchcock came in. It abruptly fell apart completely the year after the playoffs (partly due to confidence in Mason dropping, partly due to regression to the mean, partly due to the departures of Peca and Malhotra, and partly because Hitchcock is not an easy guy to work for), and he couldn't put it back together no matter what he did, which is why he got removed. When what little bits were left started getting actively sabotaged by certain rogue elements which are now in Los Angeles, Arniel proved worse then hopeless at righting the ship. So now, we're going back to what was working when we did happen to make the playoffs by putting that workload on the players and letting the coach just strategize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Johnson is likely a damn good fix for a stupid decision in dealing for Carter. But the Nash trade didn't do anything for the franchise that their AHL blueline prospects and Dorsett and Brassard aren't already doing.
What it did was identify those qualities that were actually leading to guys working well here, and adding more to that. We used to be in a situation where if DD went down, the whole team was demotivated. That won't happen anymore.

* * *
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Dubinsky hasn't been a center for over a season now. His best season came playing on the wing.
I suspect the wing is where he'll be playing. The centers who'll actually be playing center IMO (not particularly in order) are Brassard, Anisimov, Johansen, and one of MacKenzie or Letestu.

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Old
09-17-2012, 03:34 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Hon, if you're going to disagree, do so competently and with reasoned analysis, not blind assertions and insults.



See above reply. Also, please compare and contrast results under Scott Howson versus results under Doug MacLean in re: "you were worse" someday.

I don't mind debates and figuring out where I may have gone wrong. But neither of you two are contributing effectively at all.

* * *


Oh, certainly. The goaltending is a decisive factor there. I think he was referring to the rest of the lineup.

* * *


Not really, no. Please read that Elliotte Friedman article I've cited before; he did a much better job of the analysis. Here's a link:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...cks-trade.html

* * *


And if that was the player we'd had on the ice, that would have been quite sufficient. We didn't even get that much out of him.



I'm sorry, how did Mike Richards (traded under identical circumstances) work out for LA?

Jeff Carter's problems are largely due to Jeff Carter. Where Howson can be faulted (and where, if you look carefully in the OP, I do fault him) is not fully realizing who Jeff Carter was as a person.



Um. We added a lot of players this offseason addressing that very point.



Doug MacLean hasn't worked here in over five years.

It may behoove you to review how player development has operated here since he left. By and large we've stuck to long-term project guys, particularly NCAA folks, and it's been working out slowly.

Also, this makes it sound like you're surprisingly unfamiliar with Derick Brassard and/or Ryan Johansen.



I can tell you what it is right now:
  • Ice a team with a never-say-die-never-quit mentality, as pushed by existing guys like DD and Prospal and Wisniewski and additions like JMFJ, Dubinsky, and Foligno.
  • Draft talent - and/or take existing guys (particularly Johansen, Atkinson, Murray, Moore, Savard, and Erixon) - and have them "grow up" in that environment.
  • Let simmer for a year or three.
  • Profit.
There had appeared to be a "team mentality"/responsibility culture installed when Hitchcock came in. It abruptly fell apart completely the year after the playoffs (partly due to confidence in Mason dropping, partly due to regression to the mean, partly due to the departures of Peca and Malhotra, and partly because Hitchcock is not an easy guy to work for), and he couldn't put it back together no matter what he did, which is why he got removed. When what little bits were left started getting actively sabotaged by certain rogue elements which are now in Los Angeles, Arniel proved worse then hopeless at righting the ship. So now, we're going back to what was working when we did happen to make the playoffs by putting that workload on the players and letting the coach just strategize.



What it did was identify those qualities that were actually leading to guys working well here, and adding more to that. We used to be in a situation where if DD went down, the whole team was demotivated. That won't happen anymore.

* * *


I suspect the wing is where he'll be playing. The centers who'll actually be playing center IMO (not particularly in order) are Brassard, Anisimov, Johansen, and one of MacKenzie or Letestu.
Blind assertions and insults? For all the loooong posts you love to write, you generally refuse to read what other people write. i find this pretty insulting to be honest.

Quote:
I still want a response to my accusations that no competent NHL GM would believe in Wisniewski as a #1, Mason as a starting goalie, RJ Umberger + ancient Prospal as 1st liners, letting the Nash situation devolve as it did.
In fact, you chose to avoid including my criticisms in your quote. why are you doing this man?

Also I would like to point out that I am skeptical that your posts which describe your torpid emotional state and use excessive emoticons can possibly be called "rational". Perhaps you define this word differently than me and the rest of society?

For example, logic would dictate that Carter's season is at least partially the result of injury, which he sustained (factually speaking). Now, you say that Carter is solely to blame for his problems. I rest my case


Last edited by LAX attack*: 09-17-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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