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So... No Extension for Edler..?

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Old
09-16-2012, 05:36 PM
  #51
Askel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Perhaps if you understood advanced statistics you wouldn't come up with absurd statements like that.

When Kesler was put on the top PP unit, under Newell Brown, the PP took off. You can't directly attribute the PP's success to just Edler, especially when Ehrhoff played a huge role in its success when he was here too.

It isn't a hate for Swedish players at all. The fact you even mention that is completely strawman and tells me that you don't have any actual factual evidence that supports your side, and that you can't refute my points so you have to resort to sheer nonsense. Edler isn't our top defenseman, nor should he be paid $6M. Edler is a very good defenseman with the potential to be a top defenseman, but until he reaches that potential he shouldn't be compensated as one.

Offensively he isn't generating as much offense at even strength as some of our other players, like Kevin Bieksa, in sheltered minutes. Not to mention, defensively he hasn't been as good as Bieksa. So why should he be paid much more than Bieksa? How much is that potential really worth from a monitary standpoint? These are the arguments here and has nothing to do with nationality.
When Kesler and EDLER was put on the top unit it took off.

I understand advanced stats , you dont seem to. Edler produces more offense on the PP, and about eqaully at even strength.

Quote from opendoor:

Not to mention the distinction you're making doesn't really exist. Over the past 3 seasons here's Bieksa and Edler's ES production:
Bieksa: .34 pts/g
Edler: .31 pts/g
So that's a difference of about 2 points over a season. Now compare their PP production:
Edler: 4.95 pts/60 min
Bieksa: 2.97 pts/60 min


My point about Bitz shooting percantage is that you cant take on stat in one season (evenstrengt points in your case) and base an argument around it, that if anything is a straw man.

Edler has scored more points in a Season than Bieksa ever has, he scores more on PP, IMO that make him a better offensive player. But no evenstrengt points is more important right
Ian White had more Evenstrengt points than Nik Lidstrom, so I guess he is a better offensive player

Im not saying Edler should be paid 6 million Im saying he is better offensevly than Bieksa. Bieksa is a good d-man defensevly when he plays with Hamhuis or Mitchell, before he found chemistry with Hamhuis this board wanted to trade him for a 4th round pick.

By the way I really like Bieksa as player, but I think hes not suited as a PP point man, hes to much off a freelancer that gets out of sync with the rest off unit, Edler is smarter in that sense thats why he works better with the Sedins on the top PP unit.

Anyway Im done discussing this.

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:08 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
And what does Edler do that doesn't show up on the scoresheet?



Edler has a much better shot than Bieksa, which makes him better suited for the role he's used in on the top PP unit.
like i listed before, vision, anticipation, the ability to run the PP, these are things that don't show up on the score sheet. things like better passing and shot don't always show up in stats either, if it doesn't lead to a goal. but these are things that i can see where edler is superior to bieksa in.

the reality is edler is a pending UFA, all these talk of edler vs bieksa is really unnecessary because KB is just ONE of the MANY comparable that edler and his agent is going to use. for every bieksa you list, his agent will counter with a wideman. at the end of the day if you play hardball with edler he'll leave as a FA, and you get nothing in return. edler's market value is around $6M IMO, if gillis don't give it to him somebody else will (in the open market with edler being the top Dman available, i wouldn't be surprise if he signs for $7M).

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by myrocketsgotcracked View Post
like i listed before, vision, anticipation, the ability to run the PP, these are things that don't show up on the score sheet. things like better passing and shot don't always show up in stats either, if it doesn't lead to a goal. but these are things that i can see where edler is superior to bieksa in.

the reality is edler is a pending UFA, all these talk of edler vs bieksa is really unnecessary because KB is just ONE of the MANY comparable that edler and his agent is going to use. for every bieksa you list, his agent will counter with a wideman. at the end of the day if you play hardball with edler he'll leave as a FA, and you get nothing in return. edler's market value is around $6M IMO, if gillis don't give it to him somebody else will (in the open market with edler being the top Dman available, i wouldn't be surprise if he signs for $7M).
Edler had never run a PP in his life.

He plays a part, but he most certainly isnt 'pulling the strings'.

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:25 PM
  #54
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Edler is good but greatly overrated.

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09-16-2012, 07:30 PM
  #55
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I know many of you won't believe this, but i'll post it anyways:

A really close friend of mine is good friends with Edler. My friend and I were talking last night and he said Edler is going to sign 100%. However, he did talk with Edler about how fun it would be to play in the East cause of Edlers style.

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09-16-2012, 07:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Edler had never run a PP in his life.

He plays a part, but he most certainly isnt 'pulling the strings'.
He plays a significantly bigger part than Bieksa does, IMO.

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Old
09-16-2012, 07:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Edler had never run a PP in his life.

He plays a part, but he most certainly isnt 'pulling the strings'.
But he is pulling opposing forwards up high with the threat of his huge shot, opening up room for the Sedins and Kesler to work down low. This is something Bieksa cannot do and one of the reasons the PP has taken off.

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09-16-2012, 07:58 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
But he is pulling opposing forwards up high with the threat of his huge shot, opening up room for the Sedins and Kesler to work down low. This is something Bieksa cannot do and one of the reasons the PP has taken off.
Sorry, but how often did you see his 'huge' shot last year?

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09-16-2012, 07:59 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MISC View Post
I know many of you won't believe this, but i'll post it anyways:

A really close friend of mine is good friends with Edler. My friend and I were talking last night and he said Edler is going to sign 100%. However, he did talk with Edler about how fun it would be to play in the East cause of Edlers style.
Taken with a grain of salt, but still good to hear.

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09-16-2012, 08:50 PM
  #60
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I have seen Edler play maybe a handful of games that would warrant $6m.

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Old
09-16-2012, 08:52 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TedTheTerror View Post
Sorry, but how often did you see his 'huge' shot last year?
Countless times.

Are we not even giving him credit for having a big shot now?

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09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
What does Edler's age have to do with anything? I agree that he has the potential to develop into something better, and that's why I'm willing to pay him more than Bieksa. But to say we should be happy if he re-signs here for $6M is absolutely absurd!

Edler and Bieksa have had around the same amount of games played at the NHL level, so their developmental time is about the same at this level.

We aren't talking about having Edler or Bieksa. We have Bieksa and now we are trying to determine how much to re-sign Edler for. Giving him $6M is a significant overpayment. He simply isn't worth it. He isn't a better defenseman than Bieksa, either offensively or defensively. He has the potential which gets him a higher salary, but to blow all our other defensemen out of the water with a huge salary would be ridiculous.
Really? .... Really? Age play a huge factor when talking about a skill & defenseman. Edler hasn't even reached his prime yet while Bieksa is just about to be leaving his. Edler has so much room to grow still & if he reaches his potential will easily be better then Bieksa. If you haven't noticed players are starting to be played for their potential. Keeping in mind Edler will be the best UFA dman he will garner much more then Bieksa level salary.

Whenever we discuss you continue to put words into my mouth & its getting tiring. I did never say people should be happy if he stays here for $6 million/year.

I was using the either or as an example of Elder being the better dmen, not saying we have to chose between the two.

As for the bolded that is clearly your opinion!

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Old
09-16-2012, 10:12 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Really? .... Really? Age play a huge factor when talking about a skill & defenseman. Edler hasn't even reached his prime yet while Bieksa is just about to be leaving his. Edler has so much room to grow still & if he reaches his potential will easily be better then Bieksa. If you haven't noticed players are starting to be played for their potential. Keeping in mind Edler will be the best UFA dman he will garner much more then Bieksa level salary.

Whenever we discuss you continue to put words into my mouth & its getting tiring. I did never say people should be happy if he stays here for $6 million/year.

I was using the either or as an example of Elder being the better dmen, not saying we have to chose between the two.

As for the bolded that is clearly your opinion!
I guess you're right. It's my opinion that the stats suggest Bieksa is better offensively and defensively. I guess you could have an opinion that the stats say otherwise, but I don't know how you could possibly formulate that since stats don't lie and comparing stats between the two players isn't up for interpretation. One puts up better stats and advanced stats than the other. Period.

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09-16-2012, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I guess you're right. It's my opinion that the stats suggest Bieksa is better offensively and defensively. I guess you could have an opinion that the stats say otherwise, but I don't know how you could possibly formulate that since stats don't lie and comparing stats between the two players isn't up for interpretation. One puts up better stats and advanced stats than the other. Period.
Edler's career 0.476 points per game vs. Bieksa's 0.449 says Edler is better offensively, and, as you said, stats don't lie.

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09-16-2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
I guess you're right. It's my opinion that the stats suggest Bieksa is better offensively and defensively. I guess you could have an opinion that the stats say otherwise, but I don't know how you could possibly formulate that since stats don't lie and comparing stats between the two players isn't up for interpretation. One puts up better stats and advanced stats than the other. Period.
One player has had the fortune of being paired with the two best defensive defensemen in the past decade for the Canucks.

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09-16-2012, 10:46 PM
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Kevin Bieksa playing without Hamhuis/Mitchell = Ballard 2.0 w/o the skating ability.

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09-16-2012, 11:05 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
One player has had the fortune of being paired with the two best defensive defensemen in the past decade for the Canucks.
One player has had the necessity of being paired with the two best defensive defensemen in the past decade for the Canucks.

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09-16-2012, 11:07 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Countless times.

Are we not even giving him credit for having a big shot now?
He has a big shot, but it doesn't get to the net as much as some would like. Including myself.

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09-16-2012, 11:12 PM
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Edler needs to put it together on a more consistent basis before I'd throw $6M at him. $5M with a NTC to $5.5M without is more his range right now. He's had some great playoff games, and more recently some sub-par ones. As for the Edler vs Bieksa cap debate, Edler is over-rated by the fanbase, and Bieksa has been traditionally under-rated. Remember when people on this board were actually wanting to keep SOB over Bieksa, or when he was in every trade proposal as a salary dump?

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09-16-2012, 11:28 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
He has a big shot, but it doesn't get to the net as much as some would like. Including myself.
Every dman in the league right now is having a hard time getting shots through consistently. There has never been a bigger emphasis on blocking shots than there is in todays game.

But just having that threat will make life easier for the forwards down low. Not to mention Jason Garrison could benefit as well.

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09-17-2012, 12:06 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
One player has had the fortune of being paired with the two best defensive defensemen in the past decade for the Canucks.
While playing against the oppositions best players, something Edler doesn't do. Bieksa also puts up the second most even strength points in the league without having the luxury of playing with the Sedins as much as Edler has.

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09-17-2012, 12:08 AM
  #72
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Taken with a grain of salt, but still good to hear.
My friends name is Peter Girges. He owns Cento Notti, OPUS bar, Chinois restaurant and Pierres champagne bar. Some of the Canucks have invested in his places. He's a real socialite. Known him my whole life.

Google him and you'll see pics of him with lots of players and celebs. He said Edler is here for a long time. Just working out the $$.

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09-17-2012, 01:57 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
While playing against the oppositions best players, something Edler doesn't do.
Other than this past season, Bieksa has looked like crap defensively when his partner wasn't named Mitchell or Hamhuis.

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Old
09-17-2012, 03:47 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MISC View Post
I know many of you won't believe this, but i'll post it anyways:

A really close friend of mine is good friends with Edler. My friend and I were talking last night and he said Edler is going to sign 100%. However, he did talk with Edler about how fun it would be to play in the East cause of Edlers style.
if your really close friend is edler's good friend one would think you must have met edler, no?

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Old
09-17-2012, 09:54 AM
  #75
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Well if he wants more than 6 million and won't budge we have to trade him. He shouldn't be making 2 million more than Hamhuis. I wonder if we could pry Carlson out of Washington. Carlson, Johansson and Neuvirth for Luongo and Edler.......

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