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Well the off season is basically over....Lets grade it!

View Poll Results: Overall grade for the Wings off season
A 3 3.00%
B 4 4.00%
C 25 25.00%
D 38 38.00%
F 28 28.00%
Anything else. Put in your reply 2 2.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-16-2012, 05:53 PM
  #101
Datsyuk Dangles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think four different teams traded for his rights. Holland just couldn't afford to give up that 99th round pick. Twenty years from now, that pick might have been a 4th line grinder on the Wings.
Two did, the Islanders and the Sabres. Maybe Holland was? Either way Ehroff is now incredibly overpaid and he really isn't that amazing.

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09-16-2012, 05:56 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Two did, the Islanders and the Sabres. Maybe Holland was? Either way Ehroff is now incredibly overpaid and he really isn't that amazing.
Salary wise he might be overpaid, but that cap hit is awesome. He is better than everyone except Kronwall and they arent that far off.

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09-16-2012, 05:56 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think four different teams traded for his rights. Holland just couldn't afford to give up that 99th round pick. Twenty years from now, that pick might have been a 4th line grinder on the Wings.
As my avatar shows I am a big fan of Tvrdon which would be that fourth rounder. I will say I didn't think Ehrhoff would come as cheap as he did a lot of people thought he would sign for more, of course if they redo how salary structure is done as far as cap hit he becomes a miserable addition. Once he signed for that 4 million cap hit I got upset. I figured he would get what Wis did in Columbus. That is understanding the market and what the player wants Holland could have done that in my opinion. Worth noting Ehrhoff has not been very good in Buffalo though even for his cheaper than expected cap hit.

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09-16-2012, 05:57 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Salary wise he might be overpaid, but that cap hit is awesome. He is better than everyone except Kronwall and they arent that far off.
True. I wish we would've signed him, but White turned out really well for us.

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09-16-2012, 05:59 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
True. I wish we would've signed him, but White turned out really well for us.
Yeah, i am expecting the White bandwagon to drive itself off a cliff after this season since Lidstrom isnt around anymore to make White look good.

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09-16-2012, 06:02 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Yeah, i am expecting the White bandwagon to drive itself off a cliff after this season since Lidstrom isnt around anymore to make White look good.
He looked pretty solid with Quincey in the last couple games if I remember correctly. I don't think he's an All-Star, but I don't think he was completely made by Lidstrom either.

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09-16-2012, 06:07 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
He looked pretty solid with Quincey in the last couple games if I remember correctly. I don't think he's an All-Star, but I don't think he was completely made by Lidstrom either.
+23 with 32 points. Insane career high + career high. He goes from top pairing d-man to fringe top four.

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09-16-2012, 06:15 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
+23 with 32 points. Insane career high + career high. He goes from top pairing d-man to fringe top four.
He had 38 points between Toronto and Calgary in 09-10...so this wasn't his career high in points.

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09-16-2012, 06:19 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
He had 38 points between Toronto and Calgary in 09-10...so this wasn't his career high in points.
In 83 games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

I didnt realize that. He needs to stop getting traded every year.

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09-16-2012, 07:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
he got an f from me.

i still wait for the QUALITY replacements for rafalski, hossa, lidstrom, hudler and defense god draper.
our replacements so far are fringe or garbage player and themselfs.
i add helm as a part time draper.
but other then that kenny failed big time replacing this losses.

compared roster to only 4 years ago when we were on top of the game.

defense 4 years ago quality wise:
Nicklas Lidstrom +40
Brian Rafalski +27
Niklas Kronwall +25
Chris Chelios 12 +11
Brad Stuart 2 points +6 (only 9 games)
Andreas Lilja
other
Kyle Quincey
Jonathan Ericsson

defense now with +/-:
X for lidstrom (fail)
X for rafalski (fail)
White -stuart (uncertain due to be a lidstrom partner) +23
Kronwall -Kronwall (downgrade) -2
Ericsson - Lilja (upgrade) +16
other
Kyle Quincey +0 -minus a first pick
Kindl/Cola

so from our top4 was 2 players not replaced in 4 years of ufa market and one is -2 +/- wise. so we lack of 3 top4 defense man.

offensive department the last 4 years.
we lost hossa (replacement none), hudler (replacement none), sammy (sammy), bert (bert), draper (replacement none - lets wait for helms development).

from 5 core player we replaced 2 with themself and 3 not at all.
the only thing we added are bottom 6 player. i have to admit some of them are not that bad. i like miller, eaves and maybe tootoo in that department.

so to me the first round exits are no coincidence.
Sammy was Hudler's replacement.

Also, you may want to check out your current defense. When did we acquire Stuart and Lilja? And did Kronwall get cloned?

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09-16-2012, 08:58 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I'm grading Holland on what needed to be done.
Cool. I don't see much utility in grading that way. If external factors exist to prevent you from doing what is perceived as "needed," then you're doomed to failure from the start. Could Holland have done more? Maybe, and that's partly why I don't give him an A or B. But he made serious attempts at several players, and he was blocked from acquiring them. The activity of fulfilling "needs" does not exist in a vacuum.


Quote:
He failed to address any major needs, despite having the ability to trade assets and more cap space than ever.
I'm not convinced there were good trades to be had, and the cap space turned out to not be a factor. He made a run at Nash, but was told no. Made one (not a trade, but a potential offer sheet) at Weber, was also told no. Went at Suter, but couldn't get him without offering a bad contract. Hello parity.


Quote:
And to make it worse, he blocked the development path for our youngsters by signing mediocre fill-ins who you know Babcock will play.
I think there is some validity to this, which is another reason I won't issue an A or B.

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09-16-2012, 11:16 PM
  #112
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To play devil's advocate for a second. I still stand by my grade of D. That said, the rest of the west haven't gotten THAT much better than they were. Looking internally, we can piss and moan and easily give Holland low grades and sulk all we want, but looking at other moves in the west, we're pretty much on par. Only a handful of WC teams at most significantly improved. It doesn't make our offseason any more palatable but it puts some things into a lighter perspective.

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09-16-2012, 11:27 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Cool. I don't see much utility in grading that way. If external factors exist to prevent you from doing what is perceived as "needed," then you're doomed to failure from the start. Could Holland have done more? Maybe, and that's partly why I don't give him an A or B. But he made serious attempts at several players, and he was blocked from acquiring them. The activity of fulfilling "needs" does not exist in a vacuum.
I don't pretend to know what external factors limited Holland.
What I know is that this roster has gotten worse every year since 2009 and, at the same time, we're not doing a good job implementing youth.

What I also know is that, unlike 2009, we weren't limited by lack of cap space.
Never have the Red Wings had as much cap space as they had this year.

I also know that the Red Wings farm system has never been as filled with prospects as it is right now.
And with the overabundance of depth players, prospects and cap space, it seems hard to believe we couldn't swing some kind of trade (one may still be coming).

Finally, the moves we did make, other than Tootoo and Gustavsson, were the wrong moves. Sammy was a stupid signing. Colaicovo was a stupid signing.

Unneeded players who don't provide anything we really need.


Quote:
I'm not convinced there were good trades to be had, and the cap space turned out to not be a factor. He made a run at Nash, but was told no. Made one (not a trade, but a potential offer sheet) at Weber, was also told no. Went at Suter, but couldn't get him without offering a bad contract. Hello parity.
Good on him for trying, I suppose. But I'd rather have had Semin than Nash, given the price we'd pay.



Quote:
I think there is some validity to this, which is another reason I won't issue an A or B.
I don't even understand how an A or B could possibly be considered.

I've been a critic over the years, obviously. But from 09 until now, it's been a steady decline.

The winning culture in Detroit is about to face a serious test. If there's a season.

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09-17-2012, 12:17 AM
  #114
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Colaicovo was a stupid signing.
How was it stupid? You'd rather go into the season with only 6 defenseman and hope none get injured?

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09-17-2012, 12:27 AM
  #115
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I gave him a D. He missed out on bringing in a guy to carry the load on the blueline after the retirement of Lidstrom and Stuart jumping ship. That just hurts.

I don't mind the majority of the signings he made up front. I think Holland successfully made us a better skating, more physical, bigger and more difficult team to play against. Something that is probably going to stick out as a mistake is Bertuzzi getting re-upped, because it leads to what I think is the most legit complaint of the off-season.

Roster congestion. While I think signing Sammy, Brunner and Tootoo are all positive signings, Holland never made corresponding moves to shed weight like Miller and/or Eaves, and he brought back Bertuzzi, creating a massive log jam at forward. We needed some balance up front, so I think a lot of the signings had to be made. But we have to counter it by making moves on the other side to allow room for promotion for guys who have earned it - and I think cases could be made for Nyquist and Tatar, as well as longer looks for Emmerton and Mursak.

Instead, if everyone is healthy, Tatar is a lock for GR, at least one of Nyquist/Brunner will be in GR - possibly both, Mursak and Emmerton will be buried in the pressbox, and guys like Sheahan, Andersson, Callahan, Ferraro, etc. are pushed further down the totem pole. this will all but guarantee we run into more roster congestion problems down the road as we have more and more guys coming to the point where they have to clear waivers but we haven't seen enough of at the NHL level to make an informed decision on.

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09-17-2012, 12:29 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I think four different teams traded for his rights. Holland just couldn't afford to give up that 99th round pick. Twenty years from now, that pick might have been a 4th line grinder on the Wings.
within the last 5 years the Wings have had four 4th round picks

they were Gustav Nyquist,Teemu Pulkkinen,Marek Tvrdon,Andreas Athanasiou

just saying

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09-17-2012, 12:47 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
He missed out on bringing in a guy to carry the load on the blueline after the retirement of Lidstrom and Stuart jumping ship. That just hurts.
I agree, it hurts. But, realistically, what could he have done better? There was only one Suter to be had, and he made his decision based on something Holland couldn't control or offer. Once Suter's gone, Holland's choices were to overpay for Carle, or trade Flip and more for JBo. I'm glad he didn't do either. That brings you to signing someone at the level of Colaiacovo.

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09-17-2012, 12:48 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
As my avatar shows I am a big fan of Tvrdon which would be that fourth rounder. I will say I didn't think Ehrhoff would come as cheap as he did a lot of people thought he would sign for more, of course if they redo how salary structure is done as far as cap hit he becomes a miserable addition. Once he signed for that 4 million cap hit I got upset. I figured he would get what Wis did in Columbus. That is understanding the market and what the player wants Holland could have done that in my opinion. Worth noting Ehrhoff has not been very good in Buffalo though even for his cheaper than expected cap hit.
I'd trade Trvdon for Ehrhoff right now without batting an eyelash, no offense. He was adjusting to playing on a new team last year, also a pretty bad team, and he still put up about .5 ppg and logged 23 minutes a game. And he was dinged up. He would be the #2 defenseman on this team as of right now.

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09-17-2012, 12:52 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Datsyuk Dangles View Post
Two did, the Islanders and the Sabres. Maybe Holland was? Either way Ehroff is now incredibly overpaid and he really isn't that amazing.
4 million for a guy who logged the most minutes on Vancouver the year they won the Presiden't Trophy, and puts up 40-50 points and is top 10-15 in points for defenseman when healthy. If that is overpayment, what is Suter? What is Matt Carle? What is Wisniewski? Ehrhoff is a great value, and we should have pursued him.

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09-17-2012, 02:37 AM
  #120
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Another thing to consider is if we had signed Ehrhoff, we likely never would have needed to trade a 1st rounder to get Kyle Quincey. So for those of you griping about sacrificing a 4th rounder, acquiring Ehrhoff may have ended up saving us a much more valuable 1st rounder.

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09-17-2012, 09:04 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melbourne Ice View Post
I agree, it hurts. But, realistically, what could he have done better? There was only one Suter to be had, and he made his decision based on something Holland couldn't control or offer. Once Suter's gone, Holland's choices were to overpay for Carle, or trade Flip and more for JBo. I'm glad he didn't do either. That brings you to signing someone at the level of Colaiacovo.
He needed to be more aggressive early and plan for not getting Suter. Wideman was the clear, second best option heading in and he fit a lot of needs for us (right handed, productive, handles both special teams, moderately physical). While I think Garrison was probably destined for Vancouver we needed to be in on that race as well. Once we lost out on Suter, and didn't have anyone else around to go after, we should have went harder after Semin with the goal in mind to have Semin free us up to move a guy like Flip for a D somewhere.

I'm also a bigger fan for standing pat right now and waiting to sign someone until after the CBA mess is over. Maybe a D would shake loose and we could pull him in as someone sheds some salary. And, if not, I have a feeling someone of Colacaiavo's ilk would still be on the market anyway. I'll wait to chalk it up as a negative, though, until the season actually starts and we know if he's made any moves.

Instead,Holland didn't give himself options outside of signing Suter. And it burned him.

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09-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #122
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I think the Red Wings, from the day the season ended, until about the day or two before Suter signed with Minnesota, really believed Suter was theirs.

It's been a while since the Wings went that hard after a guy and failed.

I also wonder how the possibility of the lockout played in the demands of players this year.
If I'm a player about to be locked out, that might make me a lot less willing to take hometown discounts or the Red Wings discount.

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09-17-2012, 10:23 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Another thing to consider is if we had signed Ehrhoff, we likely never would have needed to trade a 1st rounder to get Kyle Quincey. So for those of you griping about sacrificing a 4th rounder, acquiring Ehrhoff may have ended up saving us a much more valuable 1st rounder.
What if we'd given Kindl the chance in 2009-10, like we should have.

He'd probably be established by now (if you believe, like I do, he's got NHL ability)

Then you don't sign Ruslan Salei in 10-11
And then in 11-12, Smith is a rookie. --- You don't sign White (even though you want that Right Hand Shot).

So last year, at the deadline our D is

Lidstrom Smith
Kronwall Stuart
Ericsson Kindl (with160 games under his belt instead of 90)
Spare (Commodore or whatever)

We'd still have our first, and we could have focused on Wideman (right hand shot) a defensive defenseman for the PK (Byran Allen) this offseason.

Kronwall Wideman
Ericsson Smith
Kindl - Allen

Some Depth guy

IMO< that's a lot better than what we're looking at right now. Our dense is better. Our PK is better. Our PP is better. We're still continuing our commitment to developing young players. And we still have our first round pick.

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09-17-2012, 10:30 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
within the last 5 years the Wings have had four 4th round picks

they were Gustav Nyquist,Teemu Pulkkinen,Marek Tvrdon,Andreas Athanasiou

just saying
What are you "just saying"? Ehrhoff is better than all of those players. Those players have potential. Ehrhoff is potential realized. We probably won't see any of those players amount to anything. Nyquist has the best chance and he might turn into another Hudler.

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09-17-2012, 11:17 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think the Red Wings, from the day the season ended, until about the day or two before Suter signed with Minnesota, really believed Suter was theirs.

It's been a while since the Wings went that hard after a guy and failed.

I also wonder how the possibility of the lockout played in the demands of players this year.
If I'm a player about to be locked out, that might make me a lot less willing to take hometown discounts or the Red Wings discount.
I think they saw Suter as a done deal, too, and every other season it would have been. Still, I think you have to ask the question about what you're fine with if we didn't get Suter. With how the summer played out it doesn't appear that the Wings had seriously considered that option.

There was a lot of talk about how this organization would have to make a transition after Lidstrom. With how passive they played the offseason it looks like they lack a real goal for what direction they want to take that transaction. The more I think about it, the more I think this is what bothers me about this summer. I can live with going with the kids now (though the more guys they sign, the less likely even that appears - if there is a season), but how we got to this point has been an ugly trip.

Also agree about playing Kindl earlier. It's okay to sign a guy like Salei, but do it with the conviction that he's a safety valve. He's what you turn to 60 games in if the kid is falling flat on his face. Other than that, play the kid and just deal with the growing pains knowing it'll be worth it down the road.

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