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Wings offseason thread part #uncertainty #lockout #sorrow #:(

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Old
09-16-2012, 09:23 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You do realize that the lockout is a result of the players' refusal to negotiate with Bettman for a full year? That the NHLPA hired a new director who basically specializes in work stoppages?

But screw the NHL.
Wrong.

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09-16-2012, 09:25 PM
  #27
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I want to do the same thing, but I can't. And you'll be back. Maybe not if the Wings have a crappy season, but if they're good? You'll be ordering it immediately.

Not that you're a fair weather fan by any stretch, but a good season can heal almost all wounds.
Well I won't completely leave. Like I said, I'll watch them when they are televised nationally (which I think is supposed to be a little more than usual this year) and continue posting on the board/following the prospects/maybe even watching games online if they are free. But I will not be ordering CI at any point this year, no matter how good the Wings are. I'll re-evaluate my position next off-season though

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09-16-2012, 09:47 PM
  #28
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Wrong.
So educate me, wise one.

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09-16-2012, 10:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So educate me, wise one.
No. Educate yourself. I presume you have google, or at least access to the business forum on this board. I will offer two points however.

1) It is the fault of both parties (but mostly the owners). To think it is solely the fault of the PA is naive and ignorant.

2) Your original reply and my first point here aren't even really relevant to my original post. If it wasn't clear in my first post, my apologies, but my rant applied to both parties; the players and the owners.... the NHL as a whole. It wasn't intended to place blame on one party or the other because, frankly, it doesn't even matter whose fault it is, from an abandonment POV. The league and the PA are partners in the same endeavor, and that failing partnership is effectively telling fans to shove it up their *ss.

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09-16-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
No. Educate yourself. I presume you have google, or at least access to the business forum on this board. I will offer two points however.

1) It is the fault of both parties (but mostly the owners). To think it is solely the fault of the PA is naive and ignorant.

2) Your original reply and my first point here aren't even really relevant to my original post. If it wasn't clear in my first post, my apologies, but my rant applied to both parties; the players and the owners.... the NHL as a whole. It wasn't intended to place blame on one party or the other because, frankly, it doesn't even matter whose fault it is, from an abandonment POV. The league and the PA are partners in the same endeavor, and that failing partnership is effectively telling fans to shove it up their *ss.
You have at no point done anything but place the blame on the owners and Bettman. The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, who has caused many work stoppages and is responsible for the cancellation of a World Series. Bettman attempted to open negotiations with Fehr a yea ago, but Fehr did not want to talk during the season. Bettman offered a proposal shortly after the Cup finals. It took weeks for a response. Bettman responded with another proposal soon after. Again, a long period of time. Fehr, meanwhile, has played the political game of "we can just play on the current CBA". Which puts all of the power into the players' hands (see NHL strike 1991, MLB strike 1994-95). Fehr either gets that power, or he gets to make the owners look like the bad guys. He wants the cap scrapped, and a return to a free market system.

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09-16-2012, 11:10 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You have at no point done anything but place the blame on the owners and Bettman.
You mean besides in the very post that you just quoted, where I explicitly stated that it is the fault of both parties?

Yeah, I'm not going any further with this discussion.

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09-17-2012, 01:13 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You have at no point done anything but place the blame on the owners and Bettman. The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, who has caused many work stoppages and is responsible for the cancellation of a World Series. Bettman attempted to open negotiations with Fehr a yea ago, but Fehr did not want to talk during the season. Bettman offered a proposal shortly after the Cup finals. It took weeks for a response. Bettman responded with another proposal soon after. Again, a long period of time. Fehr, meanwhile, has played the political game of "we can just play on the current CBA". Which puts all of the power into the players' hands (see NHL strike 1991, MLB strike 1994-95). Fehr either gets that power, or he gets to make the owners look like the bad guys. He wants the cap scrapped, and a return to a free market system.
This is a good and balanced assessment:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--bo...GlvbnM-;_ylv=3

As Jaster said, more than enough blame to go around here.

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09-17-2012, 01:38 AM
  #33
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I'm with Jaster. Screw them.

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09-17-2012, 04:48 AM
  #34
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So, if the lockout ends during the regular season, are the players who signed overseas allowed to immediately return to the NHL?

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09-17-2012, 05:59 AM
  #35
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So, if the lockout ends during the regular season, are the players who signed overseas allowed to immediately return to the NHL?
That would be the players responsibility to have something like that put in their contract with the team they signed with overseas I believe, and im sure everyone has done so.

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09-17-2012, 03:39 PM
  #36
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That would be the players responsibility to have something like that put in their contract with the team they signed with overseas I believe, and im sure everyone has done so.
For the most part yes. Now for the remaining unsigned free agents there aren't a bunch that might not be the case. Andrei Kostitsyn and Linus Omark for instance are there to stay for at least the season. Not that I expect a ton of interest. What I do think is interesting is if one of these superstar Russian decides he prefers the KHL while he is over there. Looks at the steps the league has taken and says either A.) He doesn't want to come back at all. B.) He will sign with the KHL the next time his contract is up. Now a lot of the big guns from Russia are tied up long term but it could be something to potentially watch.

Despite the airplane tragedy, the KHL is a dramatically improving league. It is a huge improvement over the RSL and a much different animal than the NHL has really ever had to deal with. Think WHA but overseas and unlikely to fold or answer by buying them up. In my opinion they are going to land a player and soon that people still want and has real NHL options. You could say that is Radulov, but it would appear teams didn't pound down his door to sign him. I just hope the first isn't Datsyuk after this contract.

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09-17-2012, 04:23 PM
  #37
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Until the KHL can lure a NA born and raised superstar away from the NHL (like a Crosby, RNH, Giroux type; Think Bobby Hull and the WHA) the NHL will never really view them as a serious threat or competitor. Now will the vast majority of hockey fans in NA and the rest of the world. It's too easy to brush off losing the latest hotshot European as a kid wanting to stay home or being a "momma's boy" who doesn't have the dedication to make the NHL for many people. Watch the KHL snap up the next uberhyped Canadian however and finally the eyes will be opened. As it stands now, the KHL can't even lure the 3rd tier NA players over there and are left chasing 3rd liner to AHL level NA born talent. Nobody is taking that as a serious threat yet.

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09-17-2012, 04:31 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Until the KHL can lure a NA born and raised superstar away from the NHL (like a Crosby, RNH, Giroux type; Think Bobby Hull and the WHA) the NHL will never really view them as a serious threat or competitor. Now will the vast majority of hockey fans in NA and the rest of the world. It's too easy to brush off losing the latest hotshot European as a kid wanting to stay home or being a "momma's boy" who doesn't have the dedication to make the NHL for many people. Watch the KHL snap up the next uberhyped Canadian however and finally the eyes will be opened. As it stands now, the KHL can't even lure the 3rd tier NA players over there and are left chasing 3rd liner to AHL level NA born talent. Nobody is taking that as a serious threat yet.
Well I think the game changer there is Malkin. Don't know if he will do it, but I could see him getting a 10 year 200 million dollar offer from one of those oil tycoons. I am fairly certain he will get the big offer if he lets it advance far enough into that stage. Now you say he is leaving to go home and he is Russian we saw it coming. But if the NHL MVP and best player in the league skips out of NA and says he has accomplished everything he cared to. That would be big time damaging, I don't care what anybody says. Their league wouldn't be better, but they could make a lot of claims at that point especially with the best player in the world being there.

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09-17-2012, 06:50 PM
  #39
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the KHL will never truly be a serious threat like the WHA was simply by virtue of being located overseas

sure maybe they'll lure some players over there but a serious economic threat? won't happen and thus the NHL will never truly care all that much

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09-17-2012, 08:05 PM
  #40
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I want to do the same thing, but I can't. And you'll be back. Maybe not if the Wings have a crappy season, but if they're good? You'll be ordering it immediately.

Not that you're a fair weather fan by any stretch, but a good season can heal almost all wounds.
I canceled cable. Not starting it up again until playoffs. That much I promise.

I personally wouldn't mind it if the NHL folds and someone finds away to offer a competitor.

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09-17-2012, 08:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
You have at no point done anything but place the blame on the owners and Bettman. The NHLPA hired Donald Fehr, who has caused many work stoppages and is responsible for the cancellation of a World Series. Bettman attempted to open negotiations with Fehr a yea ago, but Fehr did not want to talk during the season. Bettman offered a proposal shortly after the Cup finals. It took weeks for a response. Bettman responded with another proposal soon after. Again, a long period of time. Fehr, meanwhile, has played the political game of "we can just play on the current CBA". Which puts all of the power into the players' hands (see NHL strike 1991, MLB strike 1994-95). Fehr either gets that power, or he gets to make the owners look like the bad guys. He wants the cap scrapped, and a return to a free market system.
You don't think they hired Don Fehr to give them a fighting chance?
You think the NHL wasn't going to come hard at the PA yet again?
You think the NHL offered an unacceptable 24 percent paycut because of Don Fehr/>

The owners had locked out the players twice in 11 years. Fehr has nothing to do with the lockout. THe only thing he does is give the players hope that they might not get screwed.

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09-17-2012, 08:27 PM
  #42
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You don't think they hired Don Fehr to give them a fighting chance?
You think the NHL wasn't going to come hard at the PA yet again?
You think the NHL offered an unacceptable 24 percent paycut because of Don Fehr/>

The owners had locked out the players twice in 11 years. Fehr has nothing to do with the lockout. THe only thing he does is give the players hope that they might not get screwed.
I agree with a lot of these points and Fehr is a specialist at what they are going through. He is the last guy to stage the players strike and held the world series hostage, so I hope after he gets this deal he gets away. Because I could see him trying something in year three or four of the deal if he is around.

In any case I think what I have found most disappointing on the players side of things was the speed with which they approached this. Fehr needed to get familiar I get that, but since he basically came with his own offer, how could that not have been done by February or at least he could have said we need the financials then instead of I need to travel and check in at every moment like the players will spank me if I don't. I just don't understand the way they have decided to negotiate with in the first place. Some of that I put directly on Fehr. Who knows if he gets this going at the all-star break which was the original thought of when this would start, his proposals on revenue-sharing might have gained a lot more steam. Instead he waited until late July, when all the owners had to already be entrenched. The Owners will win, because they always win these things it is on Fehr to figure out how the players save face. This talk that now he will threaten doing away with a salary cap isn't the right first step to the lockout. Makes me worried that years of beating baseball, has made him badly understand his new challenge.

You guys can hate Bettman and I don't think he is great at all. But he is very good at this, and there is a reason his bosses the Owners like him. It is also completely stupid if the players truly believe the billionaire owners will fall apart before they do, it just isn't going to happen.

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09-17-2012, 09:31 PM
  #43
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I agree with a lot of these points and Fehr is a specialist at what they are going through. He is the last guy to stage the players strike and held the world series hostage, so I hope after he gets this deal he gets away. Because I could see him trying something in year three or four of the deal if he is around.

In any case I think what I have found most disappointing on the players side of things was the speed with which they approached this. Fehr needed to get familiar I get that, but since he basically came with his own offer, how could that not have been done by February or at least he could have said we need the financials then instead of I need to travel and check in at every moment like the players will spank me if I don't. I just don't understand the way they have decided to negotiate with in the first place. Some of that I put directly on Fehr. Who knows if he gets this going at the all-star break which was the original thought of when this would start, his proposals on revenue-sharing might have gained a lot more steam. Instead he waited until late July, when all the owners had to already be entrenched. The Owners will win, because they always win these things it is on Fehr to figure out how the players save face. This talk that now he will threaten doing away with a salary cap isn't the right first step to the lockout. Makes me worried that years of beating baseball, has made him badly understand his new challenge.

You guys can hate Bettman and I don't think he is great at all. But he is very good at this, and there is a reason his bosses the Owners like him. It is also completely stupid if the players truly believe the billionaire owners will fall apart before they do, it just isn't going to happen.
I'm not so sure.
It's widely accepted that the owners won the lost lockout. But they won it so much, they need lockout the players again for more paycuts?

The 94 lockout was deemed a victory for the players.

So, I score it 1-1.

While there are a lot of pro-owner posters on hfboards (which surprises the hell out of me, considering owners are typically the author of their own demise), in general I don't think the owners are going to have the support they did last time around, when small market fans and Canadian fans seemed united around the idea of the salary cap
I don't sense the "crisis" that we felt in 2004.

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09-17-2012, 09:34 PM
  #44
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I canceled cable. Not starting it up again until playoffs. That much I promise.

I personally wouldn't mind it if the NHL folds and someone finds away to offer a competitor.
Yeah, but that's not really realistic at all. And whatever product that would supply wouldn't be anywhere close the caliber of the current NHL. Plus, there's too many great moments and incredible history with the NHL, it wouldn't be the same and people wouldn't care nearly as much.

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09-17-2012, 10:40 PM
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I'm not so sure.
It's widely accepted that the owners won the lost lockout. But they won it so much, they need lockout the players again for more paycuts?

The 94 lockout was deemed a victory for the players.

So, I score it 1-1.

While there are a lot of pro-owner posters on hfboards (which surprises the hell out of me, considering owners are typically the author of their own demise), in general I don't think the owners are going to have the support they did last time around, when small market fans and Canadian fans seemed united around the idea of the salary cap
I don't sense the "crisis" that we felt in 2004.
I'm surprised to see that too. Their proposal was the equivalent of the players asking for over 70%, which if they had.... could you just see and hear the gnashing of teeth? They'd be vilified for an entire generation. Burned at the stake.

The league is just too big to support all the teams they have, and realistically, I don't think there is enough money for them to share without the stronger teams' franchise values being ****ed.

It's just a massive messed up league if they still have these problems after that last lockout.

If this isn't over after one year, or even if the players are forced to come back for more of the same, I really think I may not be back. I was already disillusioned with the way the team was building, and what they could use to lure players here. The realignment plan was incredibly stupid. The Wings and the scheduling mess over the past few years has been another sore spot, which realignment was supposed to cure but that was still half-assed. Not seeing half of all the teams with any regularity coupled to the East bias.... blech.

Who needs it.

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09-17-2012, 11:56 PM
  #46
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Who needs it.
Halfway through the post I saw...


You've probably spent too much time modding the business forum. It's just hockey. You turn on the TV a few times a week and enjoy some mostly mindless entertainment.

I think 82 games is too many anyway, so I welcome this lockout for at least a few months.

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09-18-2012, 01:04 AM
  #47
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Halfway through the post I saw...


You've probably spent too much time modding the business forum. It's just hockey. You turn on the TV a few times a week and enjoy some mostly mindless entertainment.

I think 82 games is too many anyway, so I welcome this lockout for at least a few months.

I'm sure that's part of it (Business board), but you touch on another part of it. 82 games, too many of the same teams, not enough of the other teams, late night games (although I had to move across the country to resolve that issue).... and then this.

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09-18-2012, 08:27 AM
  #48
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For the most part yes. Now for the remaining unsigned free agents there aren't a bunch that might not be the case. Andrei Kostitsyn and Linus Omark for instance are there to stay for at least the season. Not that I expect a ton of interest. What I do think is interesting is if one of these superstar Russian decides he prefers the KHL while he is over there. Looks at the steps the league has taken and says either A.) He doesn't want to come back at all. B.) He will sign with the KHL the next time his contract is up. Now a lot of the big guns from Russia are tied up long term but it could be something to potentially watch.
That scares me to death about Datsyuk.

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09-18-2012, 03:46 PM
  #49
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That would be the players responsibility to have something like that put in their contract with the team they signed with overseas I believe, and im sure everyone has done so.
Plus there are transfer agreements in place. Clubs overseas can't even sign NHL players in the first place if they don't put such clauses in the contracts.

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Until the KHL can lure a NA born and raised superstar away from the NHL (like a Crosby, RNH, Giroux type; Think Bobby Hull and the WHA) the NHL will never really view them as a serious threat or competitor.
The KHL is not on WHA level, but the Radulov case in 2008 has certainly opened eyes in the NHL. Before that the Europeans were the ones who wanted transfer agreements to at least get a little monetary compensation from the NHL. Since Radulov a transfer agreement with the KHL is also in the interest of the NHL, that's something new. The NHL has to be concerned about the KHL at least.

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That scares me to death about Datsyuk.
Datsyuk has a valid NHL contract that the KHL has to honour according to the transfer agreement.

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09-18-2012, 04:09 PM
  #50
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That scares me to death about Datsyuk.
Me too. He will get to play the season around his family, might decide it is worth more to be near his daughter. Happy for him that he gets to stay home, just worried what that might mean for us.

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Datsyuk has a valid NHL contract that the KHL has to honour according to the transfer agreement.
The NHL and Wings would have to really pursue a guy that is pretty quality guy, not Radulov. If Pavel comes out and says he doesn't want to play in the NHL, being at home with his wife and daughter was everything he wanted. He would retire from the NHL before go back he wants out of the last year of his contract.... Well are they really going to force a year out of him? A guy that has been a loyal Wing and a good guy. Sure they could force it so he doesn't play in Russia by IIHF rules, but I don't know how that would look as far as public perception. We remain a huge brand in Russia, do the Wings kill that in one big swoop. We don't know that Datsyuk wants to be done with the NHL, but this process could speed up how quickly he wants to leave in my opinion.

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