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Old
09-17-2012, 07:44 PM
  #176
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Found these 2 songs today! I really like the idea portrayed in the 2nd vid! Enjoy!



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Old
09-17-2012, 08:30 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmontreal View Post
Yeah?

Except for salaries which are tied to revenues, ie, revenues drives salaries, what?

Travels?
Equipment?
Front office?
yes, all of the above. The charters that the players so casually accept as God given to them are extremely expensive.

per diems, training facilities, trainers, team doctors, insurance, etc etc etc. Add in owners that own the rinks, talking property taxes, water, electric, gas. There is tonne of expenses that have went up.

You dont think these have went up?

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Old
09-17-2012, 10:42 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
yes, all of the above. The charters that the players so casually accept as God given to them are extremely expensive.

per diems, training facilities, trainers, team doctors, insurance, etc etc etc. Add in owners that own the rinks, talking property taxes, water, electric, gas. There is tonne of expenses that have went up.

You dont think these have went up?
It's kind of funny that a lot of what has increased upkeep costs are direct benefits to the players themselves - charter flights, state of the art equipment and technology, medical advancements etc, the things that both increase the players quality of life (and privacy) and prolong their careers.

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Old
09-17-2012, 11:06 PM
  #179
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**** you Donald Fehr. Hated the ******* when he screwed up the MLB and hating him even more now that he is screwing up the NHL.

It is nothing more than a game to him. Not the game of hockey, the negotiating?? and the extortion that he gets to play on the owners.

Is it OK to wish for Fehr to somehow miraculously disappear from the planet?

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Old
09-17-2012, 11:31 PM
  #180
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I was wondering...

Couldn't the teams losing money after a season be exempted of the cap floor?

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:12 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
**** you Donald Fehr. Hated the ******* when he screwed up the MLB and hating him even more now that he is screwing up the NHL.

It is nothing more than a game to him. Not the game of hockey, the negotiating?? and the extortion that he gets to play on the owners.

Is it OK to wish for Fehr to somehow miraculously disappear from the planet?
I know some people

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Old
09-18-2012, 01:18 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
yes, all of the above. The charters that the players so casually accept as God given to them are extremely expensive.

per diems, training facilities, trainers, team doctors, insurance, etc etc etc. Add in owners that own the rinks, talking property taxes, water, electric, gas. There is tonne of expenses that have went up.

You dont think these have went up?
Since the last lock-out, I would bet most of them have increased roughly 10-20%. Revenues are up 50%.
Inflation in Canada has been roughly 2,5% since the last lockout which is pretty normal, I really doubt a lot of the franchises expenses has increased more than that.
Equipment and rinks, if the team has made huge investment, yes.
Travels, trainers, insurances, taxes, water, electric and so on, no.

2/3 of the teams has been in the league since the late 70's, expenses shouldn't come as a surprise by now.

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Old
09-18-2012, 01:19 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
It's kind of funny that a lot of what has increased upkeep costs are direct benefits to the players themselves - charter flights, state of the art equipment and technology, medical advancements etc, the things that both increase the players quality of life (and privacy) and prolong their careers.
Athletes are very well treated. Around the clock med help, strength and conditioning coaches, etc... They get private practice facilities with charter flights and so on.

I'm not trying to say they are spoiled or anything. I just mean it's not like they ride the bus, work on their own and have to learn the conditioning basics on their own time. Now people just tell them what to do, what flight to take. Everything's pretty much set up so they can focus on hockey and be productive at what they do.

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Old
09-18-2012, 01:29 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmontreal View Post
Since the last lock-out, I would bet most of them have increased roughly 10-20%. Revenues are up 50%.
Inflation in Canada has been roughly 2,5% since the last lockout which is pretty normal, I really doubt a lot of the franchises expenses has increased more than that.
Equipment and rinks, if the team has made huge investment, yes.
Travels, trainers, insurances, taxes, water, electric and so on, no.

2/3 of the teams has been in the league since the late 70's, expenses shouldn't come as a surprise by now.
The canadian dollar was .75 on July 1st 2004. It is currently in the 1.00 ish range.

Call me crazy but not sure what the canadian markets make but even without revenue growth, increasing the value of their revenue in by 33% can do wonders too. I mean, they say NHL had 2.1 bil in revenues. The 6 canadian teams are probably what? At least 0.75 bil? Funny enough, the increase of the dollar alone, without counting inflation accounts for .25 billion. Adding in Winnipeg over atlanta also boosts those figures. I'd argue to actual growth of the league isn't as the numbers indicate. A lot of things occured such as Winter classics and NBC deal which further boosted revenues. Does it mean the winter classic won't happen again? Of course it will, but things like NBC contract won't happen every year.

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Old
09-18-2012, 08:08 AM
  #185
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Sucks that today the lockout will start hitting those who can least afford it as some teams, Ottawa from what I heard on the radio this morning for example, will start laying off office staff or ask them to work reduced schedules.

Always the little guy that gets screwed in these situations.

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Old
09-18-2012, 08:49 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by AntonCH View Post
How about we drop 4-6 of the weaker sisters, the league gets smaller, the nhlpa gets smaller, but what remains is healthier?!
That fixes nothing. Take the Coyotes & Islanders out, and with the current cap system, the next 2 teams above them just become the "weakest sisters" because the cap ceiling & floor go up and those next 2 teams now have to pay out even more in salaries than they already did.

The core problem is that the gap between the top revenue earners (Leafs, Rangers, Habs, etc) and the rest of the league has grown even larger than it was in 2004. Thus, league & average revenue goes up, but the distribution of that revenue is even more distorted than it was. I think 18-20 teams now sit below the league average! It doesn't matter how you tweak the percentages - a league-average system without significant revenue sharing will always produce weak teams that have to spend disproportionate shares of their revenue on player payroll to make the cap floor.

Nothing I've seen from the NHL indicates they even acknowledge this as a problem, let alone want to fix it. Bettman specifically called the NHLPA's revenue sharing proposals a "distraction". No, the NHL seems to quite like having a few rich clubs make gobs of money - so long as said clubs don't have to dole that money out to players or weaker clubs - and many clubs that struggle. With weak clubs, the league gets a nice hammer to pound on the players come CBA time.

I don't back the owners this time. Not until they acknowledge the true problem that needs fixing.

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Old
09-18-2012, 09:05 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmontreal View Post
Yeah?

Except for salaries which are tied to revenues, ie, revenues drives salaries, what?

Travels?
Equipment?
Front office?
Yup.

Charter 30 planes
Jet fuel
1st class hotel accommodations for all team members and coaching staff.
Equipment
League staff including refs.
Team staff
30 Arena staff and probably alot more cause most teams have a practice arena.
Plus all the things we dont know about


That is just off the top of my head. I am 100% sure the cost of those things alone has gone way up in the past 7 years since the last CBA.

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Old
09-18-2012, 09:10 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
Yup.

Charter 30 planes
Jet fuel
1st class hotel accommodations for all team members and coaching staff.
Equipment
League staff including refs.
Team staff
30 Arena staff and probably alot more cause most teams have a practice arena.
Plus all the things we dont know about


That is just off the top of my head. I am 100% sure the cost of those things alone has gone way up in the past 7 years since the last CBA.
All this stuff is covered by advertising revenues...ie, not "hockey related" revenue and thus, not going towards player salaries.

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Old
09-18-2012, 10:29 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
They make 57% of league revenue and pay 0% of league costs. That being said I would not blame the players or say its their fault. I would ask them to be realistic though. Staying at 57% of league revenue could mean the difference between bankruptcy or breaking even for small market teams.

A 50-50 split is more than fair to both sides.
Actually, the players pay 100% of the leagues costs. With the share of revenue the owners don't pay them to do their work. I pay to see the players, not the owners. The owners do no work. They live off of the work of others.

It's called Capitalism. The players produce the product, no one else, not one other person produces the NHL product except the players.

But the owners own that product, protected by ironclad property laws that were designed for them, not the players, not you, and not me. There it is. And don't tell me the owners provide the venue, the risk. They don't. They borrow it, from banks, and profit from it. Hugely.

Anyone except a factory owner on this board who sides with Capital here is a mug. It's like middle class workers in the US voting Republican, against their own interests. Mugs. Idiots. Suckers in suits going to their ****** salary job every day.

Know your place. Middle class bourgeois, factory worker, dentist, lawyer, does not matter. If you ain't a capitalist, don't side with them.

Nothing has changed. Wake up.

Go read some Marx.

Man what an epic rant! I needed that!


Last edited by bsl: 09-18-2012 at 10:36 AM.
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Old
09-18-2012, 10:54 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Actually, the players pay 100% of the leagues costs. With the share of revenue the owners don't pay them to do their work. I pay to see the players, not the owners. The owners do no work. They live off of the work of others.

It's called Capitalism. The players produce the product, no one else, not one other person produces the NHL product except the players.

But the owners own that product, protected by ironclad property laws that were designed for them, not the players, not you, and not me. There it is. And don't tell me the owners provide the venue, the risk. They don't. They borrow it, from banks, and profit from it. Hugely.

Anyone except a factory owner on this board who sides with Capital here is a mug. It's like middle class workers in the US voting Republican, against their own interests. Mugs. Idiots. Suckers in suits going to their ****** salary job every day.

Know your place. Middle class bourgeois, factory worker, dentist, lawyer, does not matter. If you ain't a capitalist, don't side with them.

Nothing has changed. Wake up.

Go read some Marx.

Man what an epic rant! I needed that!
I'm a socialist myself, but a lot of this analysis goes out the window when discussing professional sports, since the way it is today is such a product of modern capitalism.

Professional athletes do deserve certain rights and that's why players unions are historically important - wages that will last beyond their relatively short careers, some job protection so they aren't disposed at will (even crap players are under contract), the right to proper supervision and protection against unneccesary health risks. But they aren't on the same "side" as the other workers, the ones who are really getting screwed here. The players want further deregulation, so they can put more in their contracts.

It just doesn't make sense within the current system for the players to get more than 50% of revenue.

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Old
09-18-2012, 11:57 AM
  #191
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Under Bettman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
So it has begun.



I believe Bettman arrived in the league right after Montreal won their last Cup, in 1993, which means in almost 20 years under him, No Canadian based team has won a Cup, what's this, two or three lockouts now. My concern is how this NEW nhl, treats Canadian loyalty to Our sport. Anyone else fell taken advantage of lately?? Great fan site called... No Hockey Lockout.com getting us fans together so We can Boyoctt now.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:20 PM
  #192
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Lockout great for Habs

Just came from a couple of other Habs fan sites and seeral fans I totally respect are saying a couple of things related to the Canadiens and this current lockout. First, we lost two of our best offensive players last year in Andrei Kostitsyn and Mike Cammalleir, and the team was already offensively challenged. With that in mind, and knowing we didnt add anyone to tke up the offensive slack, most fans concede the Habs will at Least finish with as bad a record as we did last year, and that was as cellar dwellar in the Easten Conference. Now, with the lockout, the team Should draft no lower than Third overall again in 2013, and with Three second rounders, all we have to do is let the season passs us by, and we have already improved with another excellent draft a year from now, And we don't have to be embarrassed by the play of the team once again. To many, the lockout is a Win Win situation for the team and it's long suffering fans.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:23 PM
  #193
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Anything is possible in today's NHL. not saying we are contenders but you simply never know. We all want to see hockey again, if we don't and the lockout persists all year, I agree it can only help us going forward (draft wise) and players developing in Hamilton

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:24 PM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maryannshabs View Post
Just came from a couple of other Habs fan sites and seeral fans I totally respect are saying a couple of things related to the Canadiens and this current lockout. First, we lost two of our best offensive players last year in Andrei Kostitsyn and Mike Cammalleir, and the team was already offensively challenged. With that in mind, and knowing we didnt add anyone to tke up the offensive slack, most fans concede the Habs will at Least finish with as bad a record as we did last year, and that was as cellar dwellar in the Easten Conference. Now, with the lockout, the team Should draft no lower than Third overall again in 2013, and with Three second rounders, all we have to do is let the season passs us by, and we have already improved with another excellent draft a year from now, And we don't have to be embarrassed by the play of the team once again. To many, the lockout is a Win Win situation for the team and it's long suffering fans.
How do you figure? If we use the same lottery system as 2005, the Habs have a very slim chance of drafting anywhere near the top 10.

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Old
09-18-2012, 12:56 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
**** you Donald Fehr. Hated the ******* when he screwed up the MLB and hating him even more now that he is screwing up the NHL.

It is nothing more than a game to him. Not the game of hockey, the negotiating?? and the extortion that he gets to play on the owners.

Is it OK to wish for Fehr to somehow miraculously disappear from the planet?
Holy **** man, you have the situation in total reverse. Just the fact the league caused the work stoppage should tell you a little something about who is extorting who here

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Old
09-18-2012, 03:05 PM
  #196
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Lol, unreal. "Go read some Marx." Hahahahaha.

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09-18-2012, 03:20 PM
  #197
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Holy **** man, you have the situation in total reverse. Just the fact the league caused the work stoppage should tell you a little something about who is extorting who here
I'd be on players side if they actually tried negotiating a year prior when the NHL wanted to. The fact the NHLPA waited last minute and is using "this is an NHL Owners lockout" tactic and trying to stop lockouts via quebec and alberta unions kind of annoys me more. Did they find a multi billion dollar negotiation would take a weekend?

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09-18-2012, 03:38 PM
  #198
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I'm on nobody's side because nobody is on my side !

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Old
09-18-2012, 03:42 PM
  #199
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Actually, the players pay 100% of the leagues costs. With the share of revenue the owners don't pay them to do their work. I pay to see the players, not the owners. The owners do no work. They live off of the work of others.

It's called Capitalism. The players produce the product, no one else, not one other person produces the NHL product except the players.

But the owners own that product, protected by ironclad property laws that were designed for them, not the players, not you, and not me. There it is. And don't tell me the owners provide the venue, the risk. They don't. They borrow it, from banks, and profit from it. Hugely.

Anyone except a factory owner on this board who sides with Capital here is a mug. It's like middle class workers in the US voting Republican, against their own interests. Mugs. Idiots. Suckers in suits going to their ****** salary job every day.

Know your place. Middle class bourgeois, factory worker, dentist, lawyer, does not matter. If you ain't a capitalist, don't side with them.

Nothing has changed. Wake up.

Go read some Marx.

Man what an epic rant! I needed that!
Epic alright... did you forget the

The players share in zero of the costs...do you think that the 250 Million dollar rink they play in, just got built without someone paying for it...travel costs, planes, the hotels, the list goes on and on...the players are considered somewhat, the product, but come on man...Owners own, and players should play...

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09-18-2012, 03:42 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I'd be on players side if they actually tried negotiating a year prior when the NHL wanted to. The fact the NHLPA waited last minute and is using "this is an NHL Owners lockout" tactic and trying to stop lockouts via quebec and alberta unions kind of annoys me more. Did they find a multi billion dollar negotiation would take a weekend?
It's not just a player's lockout either especially if you look at the NHL's initial offer. Insane rollbacks, 5 year maximum contracts, 5 year entry level deals, no UFA for basically players entire careers. You can't look at that and say "well, the players were the ones who didn't want to come to the table a year ago, that's why the season's locked out."

The offer was disagreeable, and that's just a good a reason as any that the season's currently locked out.

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